Been thinking about this since about halfway through the second half last night and thought I'd get everyone else's thoughts. Not talking about the long term trajectory of the program or any of that crap here, I'm just talking about 'what can we do right now?'

So that said, I don't think we need to play 'more uptempo,' we need to play 'recklessly uptempo'

Forget trying to be like Villanova or whatever we heard about in the offseason, we need to try and be like the VCU 'havoc' teams.

Go all the way, press on every made basket and not a token 'make them waste time getting the ball up the floor' press, I mean a full on series of trapping presses.

We've got some decent length we can trap with. Flagg, Chandler, Mahan, Walker and even Meko could create some passing lane issues. I would basically completely abandon the idea of trying to play halfcourt basketball and just go completely the other way.

The thing I knew Kennedy hates, you can see it with every single decision we make schematically on defense, is giving up easy baskets at the rim. His entire coaching mantra is basically 'make them make shots to beat you.' So it would drive him insane having to watch us occasionally give up easy baskets when they break the press, but I think you have to live with that and hope our scoring runs outweigh the opponents'.

machine20 said:

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he may hate giving up layups but could care less about giving up open 3s

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Kind of a different thing though again, it goes back to making them make shots as opposed to giving them free ones at the basket. I'm not saying it's a good over-arcing strategy, especially these days where so many teams rely so heavily on the 3, just saying that it's pretty clearly his default mode. We defend inside-out on defense, and have been since Kennedy's been here, no matter what personnel we're using or what defense we're in.

Starks already plays with this strategy so why not speed up the rest of the team. I dont see it changing any outcomes but it would be fun to watch.

Agree.....Need to go 8 year old Upward Basketball at the local Baptist church mode

expresswrittenconsent said:

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Starks already plays with this strategy so why not speed up the rest of the team. I dont see it changing any outcomes but it would be fun to watch.

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I actually think Starks is better when he's going all the way fast and not thinking. When he got into trouble last night was trying to force things that weren't there in the last few minutes when we slowed down.

For that few minute stretch where we had the game wide open I thought he was playing really well. He got to the basket a few times, created some easy baskets for other players, etc.

Mitchell also looked like he can get to the hole, just has to finish shots, not surprising that he was a little rusty in his first game.

bobinator said:

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expresswrittenconsent said:

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Starks already plays with this strategy so why not speed up the rest of the team. I dont see it changing any outcomes but it would be fun to watch.

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I actually think Starks is better when he's going all the way fast and not thinking. When he got into trouble last night was trying to force things that weren't there in the last few minutes when we slowed down.

For that few minute stretch where we had the game wide open I thought he was playing really well. He got to the basket a few times, created some easy baskets for other players, etc.

Mitchell also looked like he can get to the hole, just has to finish shots, not surprising that he was a little rusty in his first game.

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Kobe Bryant thought Wendell took some forced bad shots

machine20 said:

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he may hate giving up layups but could care less about giving up open 3s

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Yep - that's the opposite of what Coach K does at Duke. It's netted him >1000 victories and 5 NCs, 12 Final Fours.

I agree with you on starks, although I wonder how much his slashing/quickness would be negated with that kind of all out pace - he wouldn't be beating his man off the dribble, then deciding whether to reverse layup or dump off for dunk depending on what their big did. I do think the faster pace might give him all the shots he needs so that might open him up to becoming more of a distributor, but that might be 100% wishful thinking.

bobinator said:

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expresswrittenconsent said:

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Starks already plays with this strategy so why not speed up the rest of the team. I dont see it changing any outcomes but it would be fun to watch.

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I actually think Starks is better when he's going all the way fast and not thinking. When he got into trouble last night was trying to force things that weren't there in the last few minutes when we slowed down.

For that few minute stretch where we had the game wide open I thought he was playing really well. He got to the basket a few times, created some easy baskets for other players, etc.

Mitchell also looked like he can get to the hole, just has to finish shots, not surprising that he was a little rusty in his first game.

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Do we need more dribble drives or actually making 3 point shots?

Good 2nd half effort, but there was so much brick laying that we couldn't completely close the margin.

DukeMu said:

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Do we need more dribble drives or actually making 3 point shots?

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Both really. When we got the game spread out, we actually hit a couple threes. You get guys some space, and get them shooting in rhythm and I bet our three point percentage goes up also.

But space would also help guys like Flagg, Mahan and Chandler who can't beat guys off the dribble, but if they have an edge and can slash they can make plays at the basket.

The thing about it is that, if we were to do it, you have to fully commit. You have to go the whole way. You can't take your foot off the pedal at the end. Last night we basically made the game a chaotic mess, and we were better at it (significantly better at it) than Minnesota. And then we got ahead at the end and tried to slow up and we couldn't do anything again.

I think it could work and completely understand your thinking, however the issue we would likely run into is a lack of conditioning for that type of play. Not having conditioned in the offseason to prepare for a reckless abandon pace of play could cause problems with a limited bench.

His ability to break down defenses would be negated, but right now we can't use it anyway.

When he gets to the paint now the outcomes are basically:

- there's a defender close by when he tries to shoot it because we aren't spaced out well enough and it gets blocked
- he tries to force a pass and it ends up in a turnover
- he turns it over himself trying to penetrate
- he actually successfully takes a shot (and he only shoots 42% from 2)

At best, I think spacing could help him get more easy shots and get the defense spread out more, and at worse I don't think we're any worse off than we are now.

Topher17 said:

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I think it could work and completely understand your thinking, however the issue we would likely run into is a lack of conditioning for that type of play. Not having conditioned in the offense to prepare for a reckless abandon pace of play could cause problems with a limited bench.

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This is definitely an issue, but I don't think it's an impossible one to overcome. You'd have to give Collins back some minutes, especially without Gilder, and Jasey would have to play more, but it's doable. We have about ten guys that could eat some minutes.

A bigger issue is that when we play a team that's better at it than we are (like an Arkansas maybe,) we might get absolutely killed, but that's part of the deal.

We would have been better off going "roll the ball out there and let them play" every year under Kennedy's tenure except 2016.

BK does not appear to like pressing, even when his personnel screams that he should, In 8 years, we generally only do it because we have to at the end. I wouldn't expect that to change, even when it makes a ton of sense this year (we are too small and not talented enough skill-wise to be a half court team).

bobinator said:

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Topher17 said:

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I think it could work and completely understand your thinking, however the issue we would likely run into is a lack of conditioning for that type of play. Not having conditioned in the offense to prepare for a reckless abandon pace of play could cause problems with a limited bench.

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This is definitely an issue, but I don't think it's an impossible one to overcome. You'd have to give Collins back some minutes, especially without Gilder, and Jasey would have to play more, but it's doable. We have about ten guys that could eat some minutes.

A bigger issue is that when we play a team that's better at it than we are (like an Arkansas maybe,) we might get absolutely killed, but that's part of the deal.

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Disagree about Collins having to play in that style absent Gilder. Find other guys besides Starks who can handle the ball. Can Mitchell?

I don't mean as point, but he'd have to be on the floor for at least a few minutes. You can't play like that for 40 minutes without a lot of guys.

Quote:

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BK does not appear to like pressing, even when his personnel screams that he should

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1-3-1 trap was very effective with Robert williams the 5 or so times we ran it. Imagine what bob huggins could've done

machine20 said:

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Quote:

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You'd have to give Collins back some minutes

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We should never give Collins minutes

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While I generally agree with this statement in the current setup, in the scenario bobinator is proposing you would have no choice but to give Collins some minutes.

If you have to give him minutes- be smart about it.... Like put him in a minute before a tv timeout, etc....bk has never subbed strategically like that either though.

Awful idea.

Double Diamond said:

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Awful idea.

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Cool, thanks for participating.

What this team needs is structure.

Double Diamond said:

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What this team needs is structure.

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This teams' best scorer/playmaker does not do well with structure, or at least not under the direction of Kennedy.

I like the idea of this team playing chaotic, causing havoc in the front court. Maybe play an extended 1-3-1 and see what happens. Sure you'll give up a ton of points, but thats probably going to happen regardless of what style of play the Ags do this year. Get creative, think outside the box.

Double Diamond said:

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What this team needs is structure.

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So like... in theory, yeah, I would maybe agree with you. But part of why I think we should just go nuts is that it's not really all that hard to teach. Like I think it's something we could actually do.

I don't think turning this team into a really solid structured team in the middle of the season is realistic at all even if we wanted to.

4 passes lads!

Fans would get behind this style better than watching the other team go on 20 point runs

expresswrittenconsent said:

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I agree with you on starks, although I wonder how much his slashing/quickness would be negated with that kind of all out pace - he wouldn't be beating his man off the dribble, then deciding whether to reverse layup or dump off for dunk depending on what their big did. I do think the faster pace might give him all the shots he needs so that might open him up to becoming more of a distributor, but that might be 100% wishful thinking.

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It would also wear him out quickly.

basic8 said:

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expresswrittenconsent said:

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I agree with you on starks, although I wonder how much his slashing/quickness would be negated with that kind of all out pace - he wouldn't be beating his man off the dribble, then deciding whether to reverse layup or dump off for dunk depending on what their big did. I do think the faster pace might give him all the shots he needs so that might open him up to becoming more of a distributor, but that might be 100% wishful thinking.

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It would also wear him out quickly.

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But like a toddler wearing him out will help with his hyperactivity and bad moods!

We need less timeouts when game is close at the end.

bobinator said:

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Double Diamond said:

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What this team needs is structure.

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So like... in theory, yeah, I would maybe agree with you. But part of why I think we should just go nuts is that it's not really all that hard to teach. Like I think it's something we could actually do.

I don't think turning this team into a really solid structured team in the middle of the season is realistic at all even if we wanted to.

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We're like 1/10 of the way through the season and it's already being determined that this team, is unsalvageable.

Don't know if it's an absurd overreaction or a telling bit of honesty. Feels like an overreaction.

I think bob always wants havoc.

bobinator said:

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Double Diamond said:

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What this team needs is structure.

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So like... in theory, yeah, I would maybe agree with you. But part of why I think we should just go nuts is that it's not really all that hard to teach. Like I think it's something we could actually do.

I don't think turning this team into a really solid structured team in the middle of the season is realistic at all even if we wanted to.

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One of the keys is sticking to a 5 out positionless basketball. Force the other team to manage all the empty space...do they double on dribble drive? BK always does and then pays the price on the kick out 3.