We played better last night, but shooting woes continue. (Insight Question)

2,328 Views | 32 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by basic8
johnnymiddleton11
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Regardless of outcomes, which I imagine will vary quite a bit this season, this team will be fun to root for and watch. Most of the time they appear to be fighting hard and having fun out on the floor. You also see glimpses of great ball movement, movement off the ball, and good transition play, mixed in with what is usually very solid defensive effort.

Now, I am no different than most on this forum. I struggle with BK's demeanor and the fact that many of his teams seem to lack a certain amount of discipline. At the same time, I am amazed by what he has done here with the state of his health. I think being that kind of example for the young kids on our hoops team is going to have a very positive impact on their lives.

I think it is difficult for a fan base with as much fire and passion as ours to not have a leader out there who showcases those traits externally. We want to feel like our coach cares at least as much or more than we do and with BK's calm demeanor it is often hard to tell. When one is yelling at the TV or getting positively fired up when we are playing well and then the camera pans to BK's poker face, it becomes easy to question his in-game coaching ability. Then when we see our team playing in an uninspired or unintelligent way, placing the blame on BK feels natural. So, my question is, does anyone with real knowledge of BK's personality and approach to coaching (beyond watching on tv or going to games) have any real insight into how he is with the players and staff day to day?
Topher17
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johnnymiddleton11 said:

I think it is difficult for a fan base with as much fire and passion as ours to not have a leader out there who showcases those traits externally. We want to feel like our coach cares at least as much or more than we do and with BK's calm demeanor it is often hard to tell. When one is yelling at the TV or getting positively fired up when we are playing well and then the camera pans to BK's poker face, it becomes easy to question his in-game coaching ability.
I don't have an answer to your actual question posed. However, I personally don't really care if we have a coach who is full of fire or is laid back and quiet. I want a coach who, when a timeout is called, I'm confident in their ability to draw up a play. In my opinion, it isn't easier or harder to question one's in-game coaching ability because of their demeanor, it is easy to question in-game coaching when you routinely see the same mistakes, poor rotations, and failed in-game tactical decisions year after year. I do agree though that many Ags who may not watch a ton of hoops probably do think the way you've described, but I don't think anyone who is an avid hoops fan would think like that.

Hopefully someone, maybe Hop, has some insight into your actual question, as it is something I have also wondered over the years. I am curious what practices and team meetings look like on a routine basis.
greg.w.h
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johnnymiddleton11 said:

Regardless of outcomes, which I imagine will vary quite a bit this season, this team will be fun to root for and watch. Most of the time they appear to be fighting hard and having fun out on the floor. You also see glimpses of great ball movement, movement off the ball, and good transition play, mixed in with what is usually very solid defensive effort.

Now, I am no different than most on this forum. I struggle with BK's demeanor and the fact that many of his teams seem to lack a certain amount of discipline. At the same time, I am amazed by what he has done here with the state of his health. I think being that kind of example for the young kids on our hoops team is going to have a very positive impact on their lives.

I think it is difficult for a fan base with as much fire and passion as ours to not have a leader out there who showcases those traits externally. We want to feel like our coach cares at least as much or more than we do and with BK's calm demeanor it is often hard to tell. When one is yelling at the TV or getting positively fired up when we are playing well and then the camera pans to BK's poker face, it becomes easy to question his in-game coaching ability. Then when we see our team playing in an uninspired or unintelligent way, placing the blame on BK feels natural. So, my question is, does anyone with real knowledge of BK's personality and approach to coaching (beyond watching on tv or going to games) have any real insight into how he is with the players and staff day to day?


My slightly different take: Texas A&M strongly resonates with teams that bring fantastic effort and view that as passion. We like defense and tend to be "doers" rather "visualizers" and relate better to coaches visibly "doing" in front of us.

We can tolerate a certain amount of mediocrity as long as there appears to be a forward-looking story arc that makes sense and "models" what we see with our own eyes. Not a "narrative" that distracts us but solid explanations of directionality.

Our better coaches have strong respect for defense in part because it covers for somewhat limited offense when they first show up. They talk a good "narrative" on offensive schemes but we don't see the blocking and tackling (from a b-ball perspective) that supports our sense that the story matches what our eyes see.

I'll add that unless the coachnot the ADcan provide a meaningful interpretation that is consistent with what we see (more accurately PERCEIVE we see), then we tend to be impatient. And then we concludethe coach doesn't do the things we don't think we are seeing.

With that said: I don't think mere words from BK fixes the continual rollercoaster ride sensation. He needs some kind of meaningful look at how he organizes the coaching. We have had some short snippets, but again the play on the floor doesn't agree with the kind of specific instruction he has been giving in those vignettes.

This causes a trust gap and the stats then being somewhat mediocre confirms the bias against him. Defense by the ADs aggravates the lack of trust because it neither retells the story nor substantiates seeing it differently,

But changing coaches by itself probably doesn't fix it. A meaningful communication plan with fans-and specifically to current students-could help a lot. Not marketing, either. Unvarnished communication.
Aston04
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To address Topher's point- the limited glimpses we get on tv of huddles have been less than heartening.

But in respect to in-game... I do want to see my coach on top of the officials and his own players... Directing traffic, demanding accountability, etc. I don't see that with BK and the high rate of turnovers/ill-advised shots (etc. Robert Williams going 0-16 or whatever from 3 last year)....
mhayden
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Tyler Davis leaving early speaks volumes about how much the players feel they can improve in this regime.

I think it's probably much like most of us - they like the coach as a man, but not as a coach.
Topher17
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free_mhayden said:

Tyler Davis leaving early speaks volumes about how much the players feel they can improve in this regime.

I think it's probably much like most of us - they like the coach as a man, but not as a coach.
I get your point, but I don't really agree. Not to derail into a Tyler Davis discussion, but I think he saw he wasn't going to get drafted whether he came back or not, and chose to go make money.
expresswrittenconsent
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Topher17 said:

free_mhayden said:

Tyler Davis leaving early speaks volumes about how much the players feel they can improve in this regime.

I think it's probably much like most of us - they like the coach as a man, but not as a coach.
I get your point, but I don't really agree. Not to derail into a Tyler Davis discussion, but I think he saw he wasn't going to get drafted whether he came back or not, and chose to go make money.

But why leave march 2018 instead of March 2017 or March 2019?
mhayden
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Topher17 said:

free_mhayden said:

Tyler Davis leaving early speaks volumes about how much the players feel they can improve in this regime.

I think it's probably much like most of us - they like the coach as a man, but not as a coach.
I get your point, but I don't really agree. Not to derail into a Tyler Davis discussion, but I think he saw he wasn't going to get drafted whether he came back or not, and chose to go make money.

I think that tends to be the reasoning used after the fact when players depart a program early.

In January any mention of Davis not being back for his Senior season was laughed off by regular posters and mods alike. 3 months later you had a mod (Logan I believe) basically state that he believes the only way Davis would return is if a certain coach was hired.

Two junior starters leaving early that weren't projected as draft picks is not a common occurrence.
DukeMu
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It's was certainly a full Mason's meeting of bricklayers.


BigOil
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Did BK throw tantrums on the sideline in his prior job before the diagnosis? Did it matter then?

IDGAS. Get him out of here and move on.
Hickory High
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For years now, I've heard from numerous, highly-credible people that practices have been very low energy, and no one seems to be improving all that much from year-to-year. It's no secret to those close to the program.

Thus, the same things keep happening each year. So many times, posters in game threads ask the question "Do we even practice ____?" The answer is most likely no, no we do not, and if we do, we don't practice ____ very much or very hard.
TjgtAg08
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I think there is a difference between "throwing a sh*t fit" on the sidelines and being an active, vocal coach on the sidelines. Working the refs certainly has an affect, and I have felt on numerous occasions that we have gotten the raw end of officiating because the other coach was working the refs and our wasn't.

But more so, I think a team can take on the attitude and body language of their coach. The UM coach last night is a great example - not shouting or yelling at guys, not screaming at the officials, but was up and active, was loudly communicating to his players and coaching them hard during the game. When you are extremely passive on the sidelines (which it looks like BK is), it seems like it would be easy for your players to get lulled into a sense of going through the motions, doing whatever they want and being lazy.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of coaching and instruction going on from our HC during the game. That may work when you have a team of senior-laden players who know what to do, but when you don't, it seems to backfire.

I'm wary of any coach who has a patterned, up-and-down track record. Coaches that have high success every third or fourth year and then fall off for a 2-3 year stretch are winning off mature players, not off their actual coaching abilities.
Double Diamond
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Starks goes 4/14. And Kennedy never tells him stop shooting.
basic8
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Aston04
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austinaggie2008 said:

I think there is a difference between "throwing a sh*t fit" on the sidelines and being an active, vocal coach on the sidelines. Working the refs certainly has an affect, and I have felt on numerous occasions that we have gotten the raw end of officiating because the other coach was working the refs and our wasn't.

But more so, I think a team can take on the attitude and body language of their coach. The UM coach last night is a great example - not shouting or yelling at guys, not screaming at the officials, but was up and active, was loudly communicating to his players and coaching them hard during the game. When you are extremely passive on the sidelines (which it looks like BK is), it seems like it would be easy for your players to get lulled into a sense of going through the motions, doing whatever they want and being lazy.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of coaching and instruction going on from our HC during the game. That may work when you have a team of senior-laden players who know what to do, but when you don't, it seems to backfire.

I'm wary of any coach who has a patterned, up-and-down track record. Coaches that have high success every third or fourth year and then fall off for a 2-3 year stretch are winning off mature players, not off their actual coaching abilities.
Hop
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free_mhayden said:

Topher17 said:

free_mhayden said:

Tyler Davis leaving early speaks volumes about how much the players feel they can improve in this regime.

I think it's probably much like most of us - they like the coach as a man, but not as a coach.
I get your point, but I don't really agree. Not to derail into a Tyler Davis discussion, but I think he saw he wasn't going to get drafted whether he came back or not, and chose to go make money.

I think that tends to be the reasoning used after the fact when players depart a program early.

In January any mention of Davis not being back for his Senior season was laughed off by regular posters and mods alike. 3 months later you had a mod (Logan I believe) basically state that he believes the only way Davis would return is if a certain coach was hired.

Two junior starters leaving early that weren't projected as draft picks is not a common occurrence.


It's not? Hundreds of collegiate players declare for the NBA Draft and leave early. A basketball player leaving college early doesn't signal anything because it is pretty common.
Hop
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I just looked. 236 players filed for early entry into the NBA Draft in 2018.
_lefraud_
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https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2018/05/30/2018-nba-draft-early-entry-list-who-declared-who-is-returning-who-are-we-waiting-on/

This article has the number at 80, underclassmen signing with an agent (not returning). Keep in mind that this list includes guys like JJ Caldwell. Don't downplay Davis wanting out, as he saw the writing on the wall.
expresswrittenconsent
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zooguy96
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It's like the offense was designed to shoot more 3's only to find out we don't shoot 3's well.
I know a lot about a little, and a little about a lot.
GE
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_lefraud_ said:

https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2018/05/30/2018-nba-draft-early-entry-list-who-declared-who-is-returning-who-are-we-waiting-on/

This article has the number at 80, underclassmen signing with an agent (not returning). Keep in mind that this list includes guys like JJ Caldwell. Don't downplay Davis wanting out, as he saw the writing on the wall.
I don't get your writing on the wall comment. You add Davis and Gilder to this team and you're looking at a contender for SEC championship this season.
zooguy96
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Writing on the wall as in he (Davis) felt he wasn't going to get any better with Kennedy as his coach and that he'd receive better coaching elsewhere OR that Kennedy's lack of coaching was only going to get the team so far, so he (Davis) should just go ahead and declare.
I know a lot about a little, and a little about a lot.
expresswrittenconsent
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GE said:

_lefraud_ said:

https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2018/05/30/2018-nba-draft-early-entry-list-who-declared-who-is-returning-who-are-we-waiting-on/

This article has the number at 80, underclassmen signing with an agent (not returning). Keep in mind that this list includes guys like JJ Caldwell. Don't downplay Davis wanting out, as he saw the writing on the wall.
I don't get your writing on the wall comment. You add Davis and Gilder to this team and you're looking at a contender for SEC championship this season.

Like last year when Davis was part of a team with final 4 aspirations and finished 7th in conf? Real SEC contender. Maybe that is the writing he saw on the wall.
greg.w.h
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zooguy96 said:

It's like the offense was designed to shoot more 3's only to find out we don't shoot 3's well.


Exackalactly
GE
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expresswrittenconsent said:

GE said:

_lefraud_ said:

https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2018/05/30/2018-nba-draft-early-entry-list-who-declared-who-is-returning-who-are-we-waiting-on/

This article has the number at 80, underclassmen signing with an agent (not returning). Keep in mind that this list includes guys like JJ Caldwell. Don't downplay Davis wanting out, as he saw the writing on the wall.
I don't get your writing on the wall comment. You add Davis and Gilder to this team and you're looking at a contender for SEC championship this season.

Like last year when Davis was part of a team with final 4 aspirations and finished 7th in conf? Real SEC contender. Maybe that is the writing he saw on the wall.
Last year's team absolutely was a conference title contender when at full strength. You're kidding yourself to think otherwise.
mhayden
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Hop said:

I just looked. 236 players filed for early entry into the NBA Draft in 2018.

Of those 236 players, only 78 were college players that hired an agent.

Of those 78 players, only 39 were not drafted by the NBA.

Of those 39 players, only 27 were not in most mock-drafts and/or had a returning coach.

Of those 27 players, only 17 averaged more than 20 minutes and game and projected to be a starter the next season (JJ Caldwell was cut at this break).


MIKE AMIUS, Western Carolina
LERON BLACK, Illinois
ELIJAH BRYANT, BYU
BRYANT CRAWFORD, Wake Forest
ERIC DAVIS JR., Texas
TYLER DAVIS, Texas A&M
MARCUS DERRICKSON, Georgetown
DREW EUBANKS, Oregon State
WENYEN GABRIEL, Kentucky
DJ HOGG, Texas A&M
MAKINDE LONDON, Chattanooga
BRANDON MCCOY, UNLV
DORAL MOORE, Wake Forest
AJDIN PENAVA, Marshall
COREY SANDERS, Rutgers
TAVARIUS SHINE, Oklahoma State
ALLONZO TRIER, Arizona


Just eye-balling the list I bet if you googled there would be 3-4 that had a legitimate reason that they would not be returning to school (eg. Eric Davis Jr. at Texas was already being investigated for taking money so I'd guess he was looking to get the heck out of Dodge).

Only one school with two names on the list, both that if they returned coupled with Admon Gilder returning would have projected to be a NCAA Tournament team.

But feel free to continue to stick your head in the sand and act like what happened wasn't all that out of the ordinary and was in no way related to the coach. Mind you, you were one of the ones that when I brought up Davis not returning in early conference play 2018 you were just aghast that anyone could think that was a possibility.
wacarnolds
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yeah but 236! nothing to see here
expresswrittenconsent
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GE said:

expresswrittenconsent said:

GE said:

_lefraud_ said:

https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2018/05/30/2018-nba-draft-early-entry-list-who-declared-who-is-returning-who-are-we-waiting-on/

This article has the number at 80, underclassmen signing with an agent (not returning). Keep in mind that this list includes guys like JJ Caldwell. Don't downplay Davis wanting out, as he saw the writing on the wall.
I don't get your writing on the wall comment. You add Davis and Gilder to this team and you're looking at a contender for SEC championship this season.

Like last year when Davis was part of a team with final 4 aspirations and finished 7th in conf? Real SEC contender. Maybe that is the writing he saw on the wall.
Last year's team absolutely was a conference title contender when at full strength. You're kidding yourself to think otherwise.

Nope. I live in reality. Last years team didnt compete for a conference title. You live in fantasy land.
2nd Generation Ag
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Hop spends more time trying to discredit posters than actually trying to see things outside of maroon colored glasses. If Kennedy keeps Davis for his senior year that would have helped the program. He wasn't able to do that. We pay him to have an above average team every year. What he is putting on the court this year is a joke. .
EO718
Double Diamond
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I think Tyier Davis was tired of college. I'm sure it was many factors. I'm sure Kennedy had something to do with this.
johnnyblaze36
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Double Diamond said:

I think Tyier Davis was tired of college. I'm sure it was many factors. I'm sure Kennedy had something to do with this.
I know for a fact that playing that summer in South America changed his entire mentality and he knew that he was not going to develop any further here his Sr. year with this coaching staff and that is why he decided to leave early.

I stated many times he was not coming back and could not reveal my source but nobody would listen.
GE
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expresswrittenconsent said:

GE said:

expresswrittenconsent said:

GE said:

_lefraud_ said:

https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2018/05/30/2018-nba-draft-early-entry-list-who-declared-who-is-returning-who-are-we-waiting-on/

This article has the number at 80, underclassmen signing with an agent (not returning). Keep in mind that this list includes guys like JJ Caldwell. Don't downplay Davis wanting out, as he saw the writing on the wall.
I don't get your writing on the wall comment. You add Davis and Gilder to this team and you're looking at a contender for SEC championship this season.

Like last year when Davis was part of a team with final 4 aspirations and finished 7th in conf? Real SEC contender. Maybe that is the writing he saw on the wall.
Last year's team absolutely was a conference title contender when at full strength. You're kidding yourself to think otherwise.
Nope. I live in reality. Last years team didnt compete for a conference title. You live in fantasy land.
The team that destroyed West Virginia and ran Kentucky out of the gym was the best team in the conference. Five losses to start conference play with an average of two starters out of game pretty much sealed not competing for a conference title.
expresswrittenconsent
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Glad you agree with me that the team did not compete for a conference title last year. Cant really believe it required several posts to get there but baby steps.
basic8
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GE said:

expresswrittenconsent said:

GE said:

_lefraud_ said:

https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2018/05/30/2018-nba-draft-early-entry-list-who-declared-who-is-returning-who-are-we-waiting-on/

This article has the number at 80, underclassmen signing with an agent (not returning). Keep in mind that this list includes guys like JJ Caldwell. Don't downplay Davis wanting out, as he saw the writing on the wall.
I don't get your writing on the wall comment. You add Davis and Gilder to this team and you're looking at a contender for SEC championship this season.

Like last year when Davis was part of a team with final 4 aspirations and finished 7th in conf? Real SEC contender. Maybe that is the writing he saw on the wall.
Last year's team absolutely was a conference title contender when at full strength. You're kidding yourself to think otherwise.
on paper
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