Why has our basketball program lagged behind baseball and football historically?

14,170 Views | 163 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by Indignitas
DenverAg91
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As a first gen Ag, I was curious and looked at the history and saw that the first time we finished a season ranked was 2006-2007.

I assume the old facilities were awful as the recent success (at least relative) all started during the Reed Arena era.

Is it as simple as that, that the money wasn't poured in?
Method Man
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Billy Kennedy is on his seventh year at A&M. Going on eighth.
MUAG
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No body cared. During Watkins time twice the Football Banquet was helf at the same time as a home men's basketball game.
DenverAg91
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I'm aware but I'm referring to our all time record
bobinator
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MUAG said:

Nobody cared.


I'm sure posts on this thread will have a lot more words, but that's pretty much it right there.
expresswrittenconsent
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Kind of a derail, but IMO, historical doesnt really matter. Who cares why the hoops team sucked for 20 yrs from 1984-04. The bigger question is why we treat the only sport besides football that produces revenue for the AD like crap. In football we paid to play and signed the largest coaching contract in history. In track we have paid up to get the best and it resulted in titles. In women's hoops we run the biggest deficit in all of college hoops because we believed in paying market rate for a championship coach and it got us a natty and multiple trips to the postseason. Yet in hoops we ignore the problems and give multiple extensions and raises to a guy who will 100% finish his 8th season here with a conf record at or under 0.500. We gave faculty tenure to a guy who has over his 20 yr head coaching career has failed to make the dance over 70% of the time. A guy who in 7 yrs here has also failed to make the dance over 70% of the time. 3 different aggies ADs have chosen to reward this underachieving gentleman with contracts.
Oh, despite all of this, you can guarantee Hop will be along shortly to troll blame the fans.
Pumpkinhead
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Method Man said:

Billy Kennedy is on his seventh year at A&M. Going on eighth.
He makes the NCAA again next season, put me down for guessing that he makes it through at least Year 10. I guess we'd be on contract extension watch again at that point.
_lefraud_
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Football
John David Crow
Wally Groff

But none of those have anything to do with the success (or lack of success) for the past 20 years. That falls squarely on Byrne, Hyman, Woodward and/or lack of heavy hitting donors.
Pumpkinhead
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The past few years, I've personally been more disappointed with football than basketball. Basketball the past 4 years with 2 Sweet Sixteens and 1 NIT has actually been objectively decent for a school like A&M.

But the core reason for Aggie Athletics existence...Our football program...It has a well deserved national reputation of underachiever given all the emphasis and resources put on it. Other than 2012, most of the past 20 years...yuck. Had a window of momentum from Manziel and the folks in Austin being in a slump, and were not able to really to take advantage. Hopefully the Jimbo move will finally result in a Playoff appearance sometime in the next 3-4 years. You at least can't blame A&M for not throwing everything but the kitchen sink into football. That is some serious cash being paid out.
Method Man
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TXMatt15 said:

I'm aware but I'm referring to our all time record


The statement I made is a metaphor for the knowledge and interest in the sport of our b-ball decision makers.
general ulysses
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I thought about this when we played Florida in baseball and they beat us. When we joined the sec we compared most favorably to Florida in most categories. However they have been immensely more successful than we have in sports. I agree with asking the question, op but I don't have an answer.

Frankly there is no reason we should not be like the floridas or Ohio states of the world but we are not. We did hire Jimbo which is a start, but that is football.

I think for a lot of ags basketball was a stupid sport and noone cared for 50 years and we deserve what we have.

I'd like to be good in every sport.
PatAg
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Has our baseball team really had more success than basketball? I mean actual success, not just finishing ranked
sincereag
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Historically baseball has been the biggest disappointment IMO. Great fan support, facilities and in a baseball talent hotbed. Annual disappointment with no success in CWS.
expresswrittenconsent
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"great" fan support is only relative to how unimportant college baseball is across the country. our baseball attendance is always less than our hoops attendance and our fan base loves to talk about how much we care about baseball and how little we support basketball.
DenverAg91
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expresswrittenconsent said:

"great" fan support is only relative to how unimportant college baseball is across the country. our baseball attendance is always less than our hoops attendance and our fan base loves to talk about how much we care about baseball and how little we support basketball.


We have a higher basketball attendance but that doesn't matter

What does matter is how attendance is measured on a relative basis: our baseball attendance is 6th in the nation but only 3rd in the SEC because of how popular it is in the south (may not be completely accurate numbers as those were from earlier this year)

We are nowhere near 6th in the nation in basketball attendance
DenverAg91
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FWIW; Florida's first NCAA tournament appearance was in 1987, I was shocked to read that so maybe there is hope for us one day....maybe you don't need decades and decades of success to build a program

general ulysses said:

I thought about this when we played Florida in baseball and they beat us. When we joined the sec we compared most favorably to Florida in most categories. However they have been immensely more successful than we have in sports. I agree with asking the question, op but I don't have an answer.

Frankly there is no reason we should not be like the floridas or Ohio states of the world but we are not. We did hire Jimbo which is a start, but that is football.

I think for a lot of ags basketball was a stupid sport and noone cared for 50 years and we deserve what we have.

I'd like to be good in every sport.
superunknown
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The only post in this thread (as of right now) to have enough stars to be blue is a post about our football program.


Any questions?

sincereag
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I guess we've learned how to "manage our expectations"when it comes to our basketball program.
GE
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Because nobody GAS about basketball.
Reno Hightower
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Pffftthh.....basketball
turboboost
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expresswrittenconsent said:

Kind of a derail, but IMO, historical doesnt really matter. Who cares why the hoops team sucked for 20 yrs from 1984-04. The bigger question is why we treat the only sport besides football that produces revenue for the AD like crap. In football we paid to play and signed the largest coaching contract in history. In track we have paid up to get the best and it resulted in titles. In women's hoops we run the biggest deficit in all of college hoops because we believed in paying market rate for a championship coach and it got us a natty and multiple trips to the postseason. Yet in hoops we ignore the problems and give multiple extensions and raises to a guy who will 100% finish his 8th season here with a conf record at or under 0.500. We gave faculty tenure to a guy who has over his 20 yr head coaching career has failed to make the dance over 70% of the time. A guy who in 7 yrs here has also failed to make the dance over 70% of the time. 3 different aggies ADs have chosen to reward this underachieving gentleman with contracts.
Oh, despite all of this, you can guarantee Hop will be along shortly to troll blame the fans.


It's such a shame. I love basketball. Would be refreshing to truly compete on a consistent level.
PascalsWager
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Why does it lag behind Women's college basketball, Track and Field, Golf, Swimming and Diving, or Soccer?

If you're going to ask about baseball, you might as well ask about every sport?
Method Man
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Because we wrote Dollar Bill a dumb contract.
TMartin
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Method Man said:

Because we wrote Dollar Bill a dumb contract.

Agreed. A&M has a history of writing some dumb contracts.
Pumpkinhead
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turboboost said:

expresswrittenconsent said:

In football we paid to play and signed the largest coaching contract in history.

The richest Ags like football more. Maybe one day we'll have a larger base of fanatical Ags hoops fans who are so rich that they can afford to buy WW2 tanks and park it in front of their houses.



expresswrittenconsent
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Pumpkinhead said:

turboboost said:

expresswrittenconsent said:

In football we paid to play and signed the largest coaching contract in history.

The richest Ags like football more. Maybe one day we'll have a larger base of fanatical Ags hoops fans who are so rich that they can afford to buy WW2 tanks and park it in front of their houses.




funny you say that. it sounds good until you realize that it is those same "big money ags" (specifically 1 or 2) who are the reason BK has such a horrible current contract. there are plenty of reasons to be upset with our 3 recent athletic directors but the AD didnt draw up that idiotic contract for BK, just like the AD didnt draw up the idiotic sumlin deal that guaranteed a full payout within 30 days.
Lance Uppercut
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Nobody cared about sums it up, but here's the unnecessary expansion anyway.

Metcalf was never given any kind of realistic budget or improvements to G Rollie. Some kind of improvement was long overdue, and when we finally got it, it was as a multi-purpose facility nowhere close to being a basketball-only facility. It was more important that we could have 2 Garth Brooks concerts and monster truck rallies in the same space.

Tony Barone was given 7 years, which included 1 NIT appearance (a loss to New Orleans). He was only fired after going 1-15 in conference (following two straight years of going 3-13 and averaging 9 total wins over his last 3 seasons).

Melvin Watkins was here for 6 years, and was only fired after going 0-16 in conference. He average 3.5 conference wins per season.

We paid Hyman 7 figures to lecture us about thinking the basketball team had fallen off.

And while I think Kennedy bought himself some time with a strong finish last season, he's finished at 9th or worse in the conference in 4 of his 7 seasons and was given a giant raise and extension for going to the tournament one time in 5 years.

None of these things are the actions of a program that is serious about basketball, and it's been going on for decades. Letting the Barone and Watkins era go on for that long is laughable, and odd to think that it was so recent.

I do find it interesting that the Florida AD and BMAs were mentioned here, because I'm not positive our donors would ever let anyone like him do their job at A&M.

The Florida AD hired Bill Donovan, Urban Meyer, and O'Sullivan and when he retired, he was the only D1 AD to have multiple championships in football and basketball. They also had 27 titles in 13 different sports during his tenure. And if you look at when he changed coaches, it was basically you get at least 3 seasons and if you have 2 consecutive bad ones at the end of that period or after that, they hired someone else. Their AD was given the resources to do his job and then he did it.

I'm not sure that would ever happen here. We had 2 separate, recent coaching searches go as far as Houston because a donor had "their guy", we had donors arguing on pro and anti Sumlin camps, and we had a donor that was likely influential in extending the large raise to Kennedy. We're even still paying RC Slocum. We have a track record of donors who want the influence that comes with their donation and the W/L record consistent of a program that has a handful "athletic directors" instead of just one that's allowed to do their job.
general ulysses
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This is a good thread with good discussion
mdanyc03
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Method Man said:

Billy Kennedy is on his seventh year at A&M. Going on eighth.
I can't tell if this comment is brilliantly ironic... or just dumb.
mdanyc03
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Pumpkinhead said:

turboboost said:

expresswrittenconsent said:

In football we paid to play and signed the largest coaching contract in history.

The richest Ags like football more. Maybe one day we'll have a larger base of fanatical Ags hoops fans who are so rich that they can afford to buy WW2 tanks and park it in front of their houses.




And what has that accomplished?

Our basketball program has been better than our football program for 15 years now. That isn't a short blip. We have had three top 16 finishes in basketball over that period, including 2 in the past 3. In football we have had one.
CDub06
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_lefraud_ said:

Football
John David Crow
Wally Groff

But none of those have anything to do with the success (or lack of success) for the past 20 years. That falls squarely on Byrne, Hyman, Woodward and/or lack of heavy hitting donors.
Byrne is the only reason we've had any success in the sport whatsoever. He broadened the focus to more than just football (for a change).
Method Man
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I don't consider your opinion important so decide whatever you want. Your mentality of constantly defending and researching ways to define bad to average coaches as good is an Aggie tradition and part of the reason why we rarely win anything of importance. NOTE: I'm not saying you affect anything.

To piggy back on other comments, we have a history of acceptance and just tune out when bball is bad and our ADs don't care enough to do anything about it.
Method Man
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Insert "we won the SEC" comment in a year only one other team made the tourney and was bumped in the second round.
JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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I feel like A&M fans like good basketball, but we HATE bad/average football.

The difference is that when things go bad in basketball, it just falls off the radar (cause it is no longer good). When things go bad in football (or progress slows), it gets people fired (usually assistants first, then eventually HC).

If we ever start hating bad/average basketball like we do football, we'll probably see a similar commitment.

Obviously that doesn't go for everyone on this board, but overall I think that is the general feeling.
DogCompany74
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Exactly.....It's as if we have a cultural pre-disposition to equating hired-gun coaches to being Aggies that we are compelled to defend. I certainly don't condone bashing student athletes or calling for a coach's job after a bad season, but successful business ventures have to evaluate their management structures and results every year.

If Scott Woodward has told Rob Childress at the time of his last contract extension that his expectation for success is to build a program that will consistently challenge for SEC championships then the evaluation process is much simpler.

" What did you do this year to move the program closer to annually competing for SEC championships ? What did you do this year to move the trend line in a positive direction? What did you do this year to change the way you recruit to get more elite talent on campus?" " I understand that injuries happen every year but if that is the case what did you do to build our 2-3 deep this year?"

If I'm Woodward I don't allow RC to obfuscate or dodge that core question. It is business management 101 to establish mutually agreed upon objectives , State how you are planning to meet those objectives with timelines and measure your annual progress against your agreed to goals. You can certainly change the tactics for unforeseen external issues but it has to be what are you doing today to improve the results?

If you pay a coach at the top of the range for that sport and provide them with world class facilities, then his / her personal accountability should trend to " there is no try, there is only did or didn't" when looking at their end product.
Hell Bent Canine -All or None
 
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