Hop said:

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_lefraud_ said:

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Hop said:

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Double Diamond said:

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Has anyone seen what the top of the SEC is doing? So Kennedy keeps up with fringe top 100 types and lower level transfers? Call me doubtful this works. I'm not saying the team needs one and dones, but it's pretty much proven with this coach that much higher talent is all that works.

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Who are the SEC coaches that do more with less?

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That's kind of tough to answer generally speaking, because no coach does more with less consistently, but coaches who have done more with less for a given season include:

Pearl, Barnes, Wade, Drew, Kennedy (before fired), Fox (before fired), Frank and Conzuo, Anderson

When has Kennedy EVER done more with less?

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I didn't say Kennedy did more with less. I challenged your implication that other SEC coaches do more with less. And I am amazed at your list. A coach that just got fired with the SEC player of the Year with a .551 overall record and ZERO NCAA Tourney wins in nine years is on your list of overachievers? Another fired SEC coach on your list that had ONE NCAA Tourney win and one play-in game win in 12 years. He had two all-SEC players in recent years (Moody, Henderson).

Pearl? The man that has been bringing in 5-stars left and right to Auburn and hasn't won an NCAA Tourney game? Wade? He had a losing SEC record in his first season in the SEC. He's grabbing 4 and 5-stars this offseason so that argument can never be made. Drew and his 12-20 record and overall losing record despite inheriting talent in his first season? I mean, this is so ridiculous it's not even in the realm of legitimate argument.

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Apparently you had trouble reading my post, as I didn't call any of those coaches "over achievers". I will bold what I said about the coaches I listed again, since you missed it the first time. Now having said that, getting Georgia and/or Ole Miss to the tournament at all is "doing more with less", especially when you look at their recruiting/talent.

Will Wade went 8-10 in his first year at LSU, which was good enough to finish ONE game behind Billy Kennedy, and actually included a sweep of Billy Kennedy. The same LSU program that went 2-16 the year prior.

Bryce Drew made the NCAA tournament in his first year, and had 3 wins over Billy Kennedy (with less talent).

Bruce Pearl DID win a tournament game this year, but i guess you missed that too. Pearl shared the regular season championship, and did so without a couple of those highly touted recruits you mentioned. He has signed ONE five star in four classes. But if you don't think he did more with less this year, than I'm not sure what to tell you. Because he had a lot less than several other coaches, like Calipari and Kennedy to name a few.

GE said:

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Method Man said:

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He's had one season in seven that he achieved to the level of his talent. That's not what this thread is about. The recruiting has fallen off with a staff of recruiters.

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It has and it hasn't. Wilson, Starks, Chandler and Flagg were all great additions for '17. Mahan, Mitchell and Nebo all look promising for '18.

Couple projects in Jasey and Walker seem to have the tools to develop into good players as they progress.

Decent start to '19 with Harris and Wheeler

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But here is what we're saying. ALL of Kennedy's success has been on the back of TWO transfers in House/Jones (which were incredibly fortunate) and the 2015 class of Davis, Hogg, Gilder...which appears to be a once in a lifetime class of several guys all wanting to play together.

Do you think Kennedy will EVER replicate the 2015 class again? Do you think he will bring in a former 5 star talent in on transfer who will be eligible to play immediately, again? Or what about getting another transfer in Jones who was the best player on a P6 team, who left with multiple years left, will that happen again?

_lefraud_ said:

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GE said:

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Method Man said:

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He's had one season in seven that he achieved to the level of his talent. That's not what this thread is about. The recruiting has fallen off with a staff of recruiters.

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It has and it hasn't. Wilson, Starks, Chandler and Flagg were all great additions for '17. Mahan, Mitchell and Nebo all look promising for '18.

Couple projects in Jasey and Walker seem to have the tools to develop into good players as they progress.

Decent start to '19 with Harris and Wheeler

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But here is what we're saying. ALL of Kennedy's success has been on the back of TWO transfers in House/Jones (which were incredibly fortunate) and the 2015 class of Davis, Hogg, Gilder...which appears to be a once in a lifetime class of several guys all wanting to play together.

Do you think Kennedy will EVER replicate the 2015 class again? Do you think he will bring in a former 5 star talent in on transfer who will be eligible to play immediately, again? Or what about getting another transfer in Jones who was the best player on a P6 team, who left with multiple years left, will that happen again?

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You seem to be hugely discounting the impact of Caruso, Starks, Williams, Trocha, Wilson, and Collins.

We'll see if that will happen again. Nebo may be as impactful as Jones. The class of '17 might end up being more productive here than the class of '15. I sure don't see a lot of separation between Gilder and Hogg as freshmen compared to Starks and Flagg as freshmen.

Doubt he will bring in a former 5 star talent on transfer eligible to play immediately because that is so rare generally that it would be a remote likelihood at best of it occurring at the same school.

What if I told you Mark Fox finished ahead of Billy Kennedy in 4 out of 6 seasons? What if I told you that Mark Fox has a league record of 58-50, and Billy Kennedy has a league record of 56-52? What if I told you Mark Fox is 4-3 vs Billy Kennedy?

So basically, Mark Fox and Billy Kennedy are essentially the same coach when Kennedy doesn't haven't elite talent. Except, Mark Fox can actually make the NCAA when he doesn't have elite talent (2015).

As for Ole Miss, here is Kennedy v Kennedy in the SEC since 2013:

T2 - 11th
T6 - 9th
T3 - T3
T6 - T1
T5 - T9
14th - T7

So Andy finished ahead of Billy in 3 of 6 seasons and made the same amount of NCAA as Billy in that span when he had one great player for each.

So, the ONLY time Billy Kennedy was better than the two coaches who were just FIRED, is the TWO seasons when Billy had elite talent.

Once again, you Hop into a discussion to argue some point, but have ZERO evidence to back up your claim, but have twice now shown how "ridiculous" my claims that both Mark Fox and Andy Kennedy can make the NCAA/NIT without elite talent, when Billy Kennedy clear cannot.

The data is in Billy Kennedy is very average. Is neck in neck with many other average coaches. No i do not think this will be enough talent to work for Kennedy. Sub 100 players and low level transfers won't be enough. Mix in a few total projects.

What is a low level transfer? Are you referring to Mitchell and Mahan?

Nebo. Not bagging the kid. Just a fact. And now many are hyping this kid as the 2nd coming. I just don't see this as an overall workable situation with this coach.

I see that the in-depth googling of coaching stats has now evolved from comparing Kennedy to Melvin Watkins during the first 3-4 seasons of the BK era to now comparing Kennedy to guys like Mark Fox, Andy Kennedy, etc.

At least the guy after banking those two Sweet Sixteens has apparently risen from the 'Can't win even with elite talent' category occupied by guys like Watkins to the next tier of coaches who can 'Only win with elite talent'.

Unless we start seeing some top 60 or top 50 types I see CBI back in the picture.

Billy Kennedy is Mark Fox or Any Kennedy. Outside of a few games his time at A&M is very similar to coaches many of you rag on.

Coach A

56-52 league record
League finishes: 11th, 9th, T3rd, T1st, T9th, T7th
NCAA record: 4-2 (2 appearances)

Coach B

58-50 league record
League finishes: T8th, T2nd, T3rd, T6th, 8th, T11th
NCAA record: 0-1 (1 appearances)

Coach C

56-48 league record
League finishes: T2nd, T6th, T3rd, T6th, T5th, 14th
NCAA record: 1-2 (2 appearances)

_lefraud_ said:

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Coach A

56-52 league record
League finishes: 11th, 9th, T3rd, T1st, T9th, T7th
NCAA record: 4-2 (2 appearances)

Coach B

58-50 league record
League finishes: T8th, T2nd, T3rd, T6th, 8th, T11th
NCAA record: 0-1 (1 appearances)

Coach C

56-48 league record
League finishes: T2nd, T6th, T3rd, T6th, T5th, 14th
NCAA record: 1-2 (2 appearances)

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If as a fan those were my only choices for a 6 year stretch, I'd sincerely take the Coach A experience, because of the higher highs. And obviously the higher highs and the timing of those highs is a big reason why Coach A still is employed and the other two are not.

However I'd rather have the 6-year consecutive NCAA tournament experience from 2005-2011 than the Coach A experience, despite the one extra Sweet Sixteen in the latter.

So long story short, despite Kennedy's apparent shortcomings, I'd have rather been a Texas A&M basketball fan the past 3-4 seasons than a basketball fan at the majority of other schools in the SEC including Georgia, Miss State, Ole Miss, Missouri, LSU, Vanderbilt, Auburn, Arkansas, or Alabama. That said, Kennedy still has work to do (like showing he can make NCAA in consecutive seasons next year plus a strong 2019 recruiting class) for me personally to begin to believe that the state of the program is generally stable.

Anyone have any examples of modern basketball coaches brining stability to a program 8/9 years into a tenure after not being able to in prior seasons.

Double Diamond said:

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Anyone have any examples of modern basketball coaches brining stability to a program 8/9 years into a tenure after not being able to in prior seasons.

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Technically, Kennedy's program started showing significant improvement in Year 4 when he made the NIT and then 2 Sweet Sixteens in last 3 years. Now he needs to show that the program isn't about to go off the cliff again in a major extended rebuild.

And sure, there have been several modern basketball coaches who struggled first few seasons at a school and then started getting better. Kennedy already has accomplished the 'program got better' part. Folks are just wondering now if he can sustain it.

The fact most of us are still wondering in year eight says a lot.

Double Diamond said:

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The fact most of us are still wondering in year eight says a lot.

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To be fair, there are many fan bases 'still wondering' about their coach. If you go on the longhorns board message board, they are 'still wondering' about Shaka, Arkansas HogVille.net, they are 'still wondering' about Anderson, Maryland basketball board, they are 'still wondering' about Turgeon, and so forth. As some one who has recreationally browsed many a fan message board, they tend to chew up coaches unless they got a clear winner. It is just what they do.

Shaka Smart ain't in year eight. Arkansas shouldn't be wondering. Anderson isn't good enough. Maryland has unrealistic expectations, though Turgeon hasn't been good enough.

So the rest of the season doesn't matter. Just four games?

Pumpkinhead said:

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Double Diamond said:

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Anyone have any examples of modern basketball coaches brining stability to a program 8/9 years into a tenure after not being able to in prior seasons.

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Technically, Kennedy's program started showing significant improvement in Year 4 when he made the NIT and then 2 Sweet Sixteens in last 3 years. Now he needs to show that the program isn't about to go off the cliff again in a major extended rebuild.

And sure, there have been several modern basketball coaches who struggled first few seasons at a school and then started getting better. Kennedy already has accomplished the 'program got better' part. Folks are just wondering now if he can sustain it.

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Leonard Hamilton didn't make the NCAA tourney until his 7th year at FSU, and didn't win an NCAA tourney game until his 9th year.

People stake out such extreme positions on BK, at least here. Either his first 3-4 years are all that matter, or they don't matter at all. I think the truth is moving on from BK after year 3 or 4 would have been justified, but leadership at the time wouldn't pull the trigger for whatever reason. Now, recent history, being one of 15 or so schools to reach the Sweet 16 twice in the last three years after only getting there twice in the previous 25, has earned BK more time. If Davis leaves and the wheels fall off this year, maybe that's it. Another NCAA tourney bid, and he's probably around as long as he chooses.

Two NCAA tourneys and Sweet 16 appearances in three years ain't getting you fired virtually anywhere, except maybe the handful of true "blue blood" programs. Doherty was canned at UNC after making one NCAA and one NIT in three years. BCG was fired at Kentucky after one NCAA and one NIT in two years. Tubby Smith was more or less chased out of Kentucky after 9 straight NCAA tourneys, but no Final Fours after his first year.

Pumpkinhead said:

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_lefraud_ said:

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Coach A

56-52 league record
League finishes: 11th, 9th, T3rd, T1st, T9th, T7th
NCAA record: 4-2 (2 appearances)

Coach B

58-50 league record
League finishes: T8th, T2nd, T3rd, T6th, 8th, T11th
NCAA record: 0-1 (1 appearances)

Coach C

56-48 league record
League finishes: T2nd, T6th, T3rd, T6th, T5th, 14th
NCAA record: 1-2 (2 appearances)

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If as a fan those were my only choices for a 6 year stretch, I'd sincerely take the Coach A experience, because of the higher highs. And obviously the higher highs and the timing of those highs is a big reason why Coach A still is employed and the other two are not.

However I'd rather have the 6-year consecutive NCAA tournament experience from 2005-2011 than the Coach A experience, despite the one extra Sweet Sixteen in the latter.

So long story short, despite Kennedy's apparent shortcomings, I'd have rather been a Texas A&M basketball fan the past 3-4 seasons than a basketball fan at the majority of other schools in the SEC including Georgia, Miss State, Ole Miss, Missouri, LSU, Vanderbilt, Auburn, Arkansas, or Alabama. That said, Kennedy still has work to do (like showing he can make NCAA in consecutive seasons next year plus a strong 2019 recruiting class) for me personally to begin to believe that the state of the program is generally stable.

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I'm not sure his stats say what he wants them to say

No they say that coach A has four more important wins to coaches B and C. However, the overall body of work is pretty similar.

It's what I keep saying four wins are the difference in totally being average.

IF he hasn't already landed somewhere we should back up the Brinks truck to Scott Cross.

TCU

Jamie Dixon already did it. Happy for Scott that he doesn't have to move.

Good for him. He'll be a great replacement at TCU when Dixon gets a better opportunity.

Assuming he likes DFW (and his alma mater), I'm not sure I see him going anywhere else. Maybe if UCLA or Arizona come calling, or even USC/Stanford, he might listen, but I just don't see him jumping to a pressure cooker. He could stay at TCU for the rest of his career, and they would probably put his name on the floor...

That's just something Ags do. A sour grapes thing.

_lefraud_ said:

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Assuming he likes DFW (and his alma mater), I'm not sure I see him going anywhere else. Maybe if UCLA or Arizona come calling, or even USC/Stanford, he might listen, but I just don't see him jumping to a pressure cooker. He could stay at TCU for the rest of his career, and they would probably put his name on the floor...

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I wasn't aware TCU was his alma mater.

Dixon stayed at Pitt despite opportunities. I bet he retires at TCU. I mean sure if something seemingly way above Dixon's paygrade wants him, well sure. But TCU is paying Dixon a very good salery, is giving him a top ten budget in men's hoops. It would take a crazy situation to get him to leave.