More Crooked Basketball News

13,668 Views | 95 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by aggiepublius
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Double Diamond said:

It's about shoe companies. Pitino was the fall guy over stuff every school is involved in.


Finally somebody gets it. Bobinator keeps getting stuck on NCAA violations and I'm talking about federal bribery and wire fraud by one of the largest apparel companies in the world that empowers these street agents.
Double Diamond
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This isn't about the NCAA. It's much larger. Feds want their cut, and when taxes aren't coming out of payments they aren't happy.
bobinator
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I'm not stuck on NCAA violations. I'm saying that the potential for NCAA violations is one of the main things that the FBI is using to actually charge people, which I think is kind of ridiculous. The FBI's whole case is based around the idea that the schools themselves are the victims, which I think is laughable.

Put another way, let's say that there was no college basketball and there was only amateur basketball.

From what I've read, the things that these companies/handlers/etc are doing wouldn't be illegal. The only reason it is illegal is because it's college basketball and the FBI is making this absurd argument that the schools themselves are the victims.

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bobinator said:

I'm not stuck on NCAA violations. I'm saying that the potential for NCAA violations is one of the main things that the FBI is using to actually charge people, which I think is kind of ridiculous. The FBI's whole case is based around the idea that the schools themselves are the victims, which I think is laughable.

Put another way, let's say that there was no college basketball and there was only amateur basketball.

From what I've read, the things that these companies/handlers/etc are doing wouldn't be illegal. The only reason it is illegal is because it's college basketball and the FBI is making this absurd argument that the schools themselves are the victims.




You are completely missing the most important component of this that I've explained several times. If you don't stop it or attempt to stop it, the potential exists for this to be much, much worse...as in organized crime.
bobinator
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How would organized crime even get involved in this?
Expert Analysis
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Pumpkinhead said:

Turgeon missed the NCAA last season and has seemed to have generally a polarizing relationship with the fanbase there. if Maryland is looking for an excuse to can him while saving buyout money, this might eventually given them one.
Turge has done nothing at Maryland, our results have been better than theirs since the coaching change.
Belton Ag
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bobinator said:

How would organized crime even get involved in this?
Any time a black market exists, organized crime would seek to get involved in some way. It could be as simple as laundering the money on the back end or acting as the bank for people who want to keep this off the books.
bobinator
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To me, if anything, the investigation makes it more likely that would happen, not less. For years grassroots basketball has seemed to basically operate under this "don't ask don't tell" kind of policy when it comes to who's getting paid.

Everybody was doing it, it wasn't hurting anybody (again, it's corporate money). But now that the feds are watching closely I'd think it's even more likely that people try to find new ways to circumvent the system, which opens things up for more of a "black market" type situation.

The only way the system is ever going to have real change is when the players themselves can get paid. Until then, you're going to have the same problems, just now in new and creative ways.
Pumpkinhead
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free_mhayden said:

We're all a victim of your overzealous positive spin on everything but you don't see us asking the FBI to get involved.
Was this to me? My last Pitino-related post was mostly wanting to see if Double Diamond Ben would defend him. If I had wanted to get a surefire response out of mhayden, I'd have instead tried to hypothesize how this FBI investigation was important for the gambling industry.
Pumpkinhead
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bobinator said:

To me, if anything, the investigation makes it more likely that would happen, not less. For years grassroots basketball has seemed to basically operate under this "don't ask don't tell" kind of policy when it comes to who's getting paid.

Everybody was doing it, it wasn't hurting anybody (again, it's corporate money). But now that the feds are watching closely I'd think it's even more likely that people try to find new ways to circumvent the system, which opens things up for more of a "black market" type situation.

The only way the system is ever going to have real change is when the players themselves can get paid. Until then, you're going to have the same problems, just now in new and creative ways.
If the NBA drops the minimum age requirement (possibly as early as 2020 apparently) I guess the size of the black market may at least get reduced a bit, to the extent that the teenage players with the most value to shoe company/agent types will be more likely to simply skip college basketball altogether and go straight to the NBA draft.
wacarnolds
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Pumpkinhead said:

If the NBA drops the minimum age requirement (possibly as early as 2020 apparently) I guess the size of the black market may at least get reduced a bit, to the extent that the teenage players with the most value to shoe company/agent types will be more likely to simply skip college basketball altogether and go straight to the NBA draft.

As long as there are schools willing to cheat and shoe companies willing to cheat, I wouldn't count on changing the NBA age minimum to materially affect the amount of cheating that goes on in college basketball. The schools and shoe co. will still need their quota of star players for March.

The dirty money will still be there, it will just be going to slightly lower regarded players.
wacarnolds
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bobinator said:

The only way the system is ever going to have real change is when the players themselves can get paid. Until then, you're going to have the same problems, just now in new and creative ways.

I'm a big believer that rising G league salaries will be the cure to the illicit payment issue. And if the NCAA doesn't change its policies before those salaries get high enough, they may end up the big losers in all this.
bobinator
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Eh, it might lower the amount of money in the pot, but there will still be incentive to steer kids to certain schools or agents. It's not like the whole situation started when the one-and-done rule started.
wacarnolds
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bobinator said:

Eh, it might lower the amount of money in the pot, but there will still be incentive to steer kids to certain schools or agents. It's not like the whole situation started when the one-and-done rule started.
Yes, schools and shoe cos. will still have incentive to cheat.

Once you can make 50-60k + housing/insurance playing 6 months in a fully formed G-league, what is the incentive for a 4/5-star recruit to go to college, take a full course load and play for free (plus any cash you took under the table)?
bobinator
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Let's a huge number, 40 high school players a year, are good enough to get signed by the G League, that's still a lot of guys that aren't right?

I honestly think the fix here is pretty simple, and it's to just let kids make money off their name and likeness. If Nike wants to sponsor an 18 year old, let 'em. Then you've got the shoe company money going directly to the players themselves instead of handlers, parents, coaches, "mentors" or whoever else.

If ADIDAS tells a kid they'll give them more money to go to Kansas than Nike will give them to go to Kentucky, then they can go to Kansas.

Instead of everyone paying everyone under the table, let's just pay 'em right out on the table.
wacarnolds
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bobinator said:

Let's a huge number, 40 high school players a year, are good enough to get signed by the G League, that's still a lot of guys that aren't right?

I honestly think the fix here is pretty simple, and it's to just let kids make money off their name and likeness. If Nike wants to sponsor an 18 year old, let 'em. Then you've got the shoe company money going directly to the players themselves instead of handlers, parents, coaches, "mentors" or whoever else.

If ADIDAS tells a kid they'll give them more money to go to Kansas than Nike will give them to go to Kentucky, then they can go to Kansas.

Instead of everyone paying everyone under the table, let's just pay 'em right out on the table.
If a few kids can get $50k from Nike, great. But Kentucky, Duke, Arizona, etc. will still be fighting for that player, so what is there to discourage those schools' boosters from offering additional $ under the table?

Are we expecting HS kids to say, "nah I already got a nice check from Nike, I don't want to take any of this free money you are handing to me"?

Are boosters going to stop using their disposable income to ensure their alma mater has the best talent on the court?
bobinator
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It wouldn't just be shoe company money they could earn. They could do whatever they want. Maybe make commercials for a local car dealership, whatever. Boosters wouldn't have to pay them under the table because they could pay them legitimately.

If that's how boosters want to spend their money, I don't see why anyone should stop them.
wacarnolds
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bobinator said:

It wouldn't just be shoe company money they could earn. They could do whatever they want. Maybe make commercials for a local car dealership, whatever. Boosters wouldn't have to pay them under the table because they could pay them legitimately.

If that's how boosters want to spend their money, I don't see why anyone should stop them.
you're going to have to create a completely separate division for high majors in football and basketball if you are going to allow this. not that the current system is anything close to fair, but this would be a license for the schools with the most cash to buy the best players.

i would prefer that more money be going directly to the players instead of coaches and facilities, but that would be a nuclear bomb on the current structure.
bobinator
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Would it? The schools with the boosters with the most money would still be getting the best players, but they can still only sign 12 guys.

Essentially it would be the exact same situation as right now, except that having to pay players through their handlers, mentors, AAU coaches or whoever else you could just pay them directly.
bobinator
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Also, to be clear, I'm not saying that the schools themselves can pay players. If that was the deal, then you'd introduce title IX problems, whether all sports get paid the same, etc, etc.

I'm just saying players can sign endorsement deals, sign autographs for money, that sort of thing.
wacarnolds
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bobinator said:

Would it? The schools with the boosters with the most money would still be getting the best players, but they can still only sign 12 guys.

Essentially it would be the exact same situation as right now, except that having to pay players through their handlers, mentors, AAU coaches or whoever else you could just pay them directly.
Yeah I think there would be significant hazards to such a system that the NCAA would not be able to handle properly.

You don't think having millionaires playing college football/basketball next to guys playing for free tuition would cause any sort of issues for the sport?

The Olympic model is a reasonable start if you insist on maintaining the farce of amateurism, but does every player now get an agent to negotiate on their behalf? Do they get to renegotiate every year? Are players free to transfer because another school is offering a better endorsement deal?
wacarnolds
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bobinator said:

Also, to be clear, I'm not saying that the schools themselves can pay players. If that was the deal, then you'd introduce title IX problems, whether all sports get paid the same, etc, etc.

I'm just saying players can sign endorsement deals, sign autographs for money, that sort of thing.
Whatever the shoe companies and local businesses (and I guess some national business) decide to pay the players for endorsements, wouldn't the schools start directing its major donors to create slush funds used to pay the players, via autographs or sham endorsements?
bobinator
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What you're saying is already the case. Players at better schools are already getting paid more than ones at small schools. Schools with richer boosters already have systems set up for them to pay players.

I also think the market would settle out pretty quickly and it we wouldn't be talking about very much money except for maybe the super elite players.

I just think it's a much simpler idea than trying to organize compensation by the universities themselves.
wacarnolds
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bobinator said:

What you're saying is already the case. Players at better schools are already getting paid more than ones at small schools. Schools with richer boosters already have systems set up for them to pay players.

I also think the market would settle out pretty quickly and it we wouldn't be talking about very much money except for maybe the super elite players.
I'm skeptical there are any millionaire college athletes getting ready for the fall semester. Once you put Johnny Manziel or Greg Oden or Anthony Davis on the open market, you're dealing with a level of inequality that I don't think anyone is prepared to deal with.

Quote:

I just think it's a much simpler idea than trying to organize compensation by the universities themselves.
Why not just take a cut of the TV contracts and distribute it to each player? Or shave $1-1.5 million off every football coaching staff and distribute it equally to the players?
bobinator
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wacarnolds said:


Why not just take a cut of the TV contracts and distribute it to each player? Or shave $1-1.5 million off every football coaching staff and distribute it equally to the players?
Problem with that is if the money is coming from the school, then you're going to have a completely different set of inequality problems. Do women athletes get paid less? Then you're talking title IX issues.

I just think letting players make money off their name/image/likeness is a lot easier, and you let the market determine what they're worth. But instead of an underground secret market that everyone pretends isn't happening, you have it out in the open.
wacarnolds
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aggiepublius
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bobinator said:

wacarnolds said:


Why not just take a cut of the TV contracts and distribute it to each player? Or shave $1-1.5 million off every football coaching staff and distribute it equally to the players?
Problem with that is if the money is coming from the school, then you're going to have a completely different set of inequality problems. Do women athletes get paid less? Then you're talking title IX issues.

I just think letting players make money off their name/image/likeness is a lot easier, and you let the market determine what they're worth. But instead of an underground secret market that everyone pretends isn't happening, you have it out in the open.
And we have a winner... Title IX is what will limit this as very few schools have the finances to pay all their athletes.
 
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