Williams vs Porter Jr

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GrayMatter
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4:48p, 7/19/17
AG
I admit that I don't follow recruiting as much but was surprised their second pick was Porter Jr from Missouri. I don't really care for how they played in HS as much as how they play once they put on a college uniform.

Am I missing something? Is he that good?

That looks like a fun match up to watch. What are the chances that they guard each other when we play them?

The Perfect Starting Five
Quote:
No. 2 pick

Michael Porter, Jr., forward, Missouri Tigers
Yes, we'll add the projected top pick in the 2018 NBA draft to the starting five. Two months ago, Cuonzo Martin told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch the 6-foot-10 Porter played like a prep version of a Kevin Garnett-Kevin Durant hybrid. By all accounts, Porter on any team would dramatically elevate the potential of the program. He's a big, polished athlete who can handle the ball, shoot 3-pointers, block and alter shots, and create a 40-minute offensive monsoon in transition.
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wacarnolds
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In reply to GrayMatter • 5:09p, 7/19/17
AG
AggieBaller98 said:
Am I missing something?
Yes
Quote:
Is he that good?
Yes
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wacarnolds
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5:13p, 7/19/17
AG
And the top 3 picks in each of the last 4 drafts were freshmen, so it shouldn't be terribly surprising to see a fish in the top 2.
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Serious Lee
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5:32p, 7/19/17
porter is likely going to be better than ben simmons. if you want to get upset at espn (and i wouldnt waste the emotion if i were you) then its bamba over williams that should do it. or when they picked their best combos in CBB and andrew jones/mo bamba were listed over admon or davis & williams.
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mikesyracuse1
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7:06p, 7/19/17
Top tier! Program changer!

Mikesyracuse1
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Method Man
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7:24p, 7/19/17
HEs like ben Simmons but good.
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Hollabeck
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10:31p, 7/20/17
Posted this before I saw this thread had been started:

I'm not usually one to harp on favoritism and conspiracy by ESPN, but the omission of Robert Williams from this article seems particularly egregious and ignorant. The fact that the description of what they hope Mohamed Bamba will be is what Robert Williams has already proven to be is what makes this most absurd to me.

Frankly, I've been a bit surprised in general that the national media doesn't seem to have any sense of how good the A&M basketball team is likely to be next year. I expect it to become pretty obvious early in the season, so it will be interesting to see how quickly we are embraced as a serious contender.

Or maybe I'm completely off base and 1) Mohamed Bamba will prove to be much better than Robert Williams and 2) A&M will not be a Top 15 caliber team.
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bobinator
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9:08a, 7/21/17
AG
Bamba is 3 inches taller than Williams (according to the Nike Skills Academy) and they're basically the same player otherwise. I don't see a problem with that.

If I were building the perfect college basketball team I'd probably pick Tyler Davis before Williams.
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GrayMatter
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In reply to bobinator • 9:41a, 7/21/17
AG
bobinator said:
If I were building the perfect college basketball team I'd probably pick Tyler Davis before Williams.
You've piqued my interest. Are you basing this off of basketball skills alone? What makes you pick Davis before Williams?
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bobinator
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9:51a, 7/21/17
AG
I just think Davis is a rarer college basketball player. There's usually 4-5 guys each year that are raw hyper athletic dunkers like Williams, but bigs with good fundamentals in the low block are a lot rarer.

If I were starting an NBA team I'd obviously pick Williams, but if I was drafting a college basketball team, I think I want Davis.
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GrayMatter
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In reply to bobinator • 10:20a, 7/21/17
AG
bobinator said:
I just think Davis is a rarer college basketball player. There's usually 4-5 guys each year that are raw hyper athletic dunkers like Williams, but bigs with good fundamentals in the low block are a lot rarer.

If I were starting an NBA team I'd obviously pick Williams, but if I was drafting a college basketball team, I think I want Davis.
I think you could go either way and I feel A&M is discredited because those Davis and Williams cancel each other out. However, I don't you'll find a better backcourt tandem in the country.

For the sake of the discussion, the article is as useful as the preseason poll and/or the pre-season bracketology.
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GE
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In reply to bobinator • 11:36a, 7/21/17
AG
bobinator said:
I just think Davis is a rarer college basketball player. There's usually 4-5 guys each year that are raw hyper athletic dunkers like Williams, but bigs with good fundamentals in the low block are a lot rarer.

If I were starting an NBA team I'd obviously pick Williams, but if I was drafting a college basketball team, I think I want Davis.
If I had to choose between them as fish in franchise mode, agree completely. For one year, not so sure.
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bobinator
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11:59a, 7/21/17
AG
Well we could get into a conversation about how it depends on what exactly you're planning on running also on what your "perfect team" would be. If you just pick the most athletic 10 guys in college basketball you could athlete teams to death in which case you'd probably want Williams on that team instead of Davis.

But there are several athletic forwards that are good in transition, excellent shot blockers and good offensive rebound/put back guys. Bamba and Ayton are basically bigger versions of Williams right?

Davis is a rare true center, and I guess we can talk about whether there's still value in that in the way basketball is played now, but for me he's the guy that defenses have to key on for us or he'll just eat them alive. Because he's so good in the post, basically nobody can guard him man to man, it frees up anything else you might want to do on offense.
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GrayMatter
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In reply to bobinator • 1:42p, 7/21/17
AG
bobinator said:

Davis is a rare true center, and I guess we can talk about whether there's still value in that in the way basketball is played now, but for me he's the guy that defenses have to key on for us or he'll just eat them alive. Because he's so good in the post, basically nobody can guard him man to man, it frees up anything else you might want to do on offense.
True. The most frustrating thing about Davis is that the refs typically won't let him play physical and that's not a knock on Davis at all. It's just that a couple of quick whistles against Davis and he loses one of his best skills: his aggression and willingness to command the paint. Whether he's banging bodies for a rebound or trying to establish a presence in the post, you'd be hard pressed to find a more sound player than Davis, but so far he hasn't been able to consistently take over games like we know he can.
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GE
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In reply to bobinator • 4:46p, 7/21/17
AG
bobinator said:
Well we could get into a conversation about how it depends on what exactly you're planning on running also on what your "perfect team" would be. If you just pick the most athletic 10 guys in college basketball you could athlete teams to death in which case you'd probably want Williams on that team instead of Davis.

But there are several athletic forwards that are good in transition, excellent shot blockers and good offensive rebound/put back guys. Bamba and Ayton are basically bigger versions of Williams right?

Davis is a rare true center, and I guess we can talk about whether there's still value in that in the way basketball is played now, but for me he's the guy that defenses have to key on for us or he'll just eat them alive. Because he's so good in the post, basically nobody can guard him man to man, it frees up anything else you might want to do on offense.
Williams has the athleticism and height but his timing and anticipation are what makes him absolutely rare. Those other guys might be taller but I doubt they have that quality in the same way he does.
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JMJLAW
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12:43a, 7/24/17
AG
Loyalties aside, Porter is a much more versatile and skilled basketball player than Williams. Porter handles the ball like a 2 or 3 and can effectively shoot the 3 as well.

I don't see Williams creating his shot off the dribble or shooting the 3 as effectively as Porter.

Williams has just a little more bounce than Porter but that's about his only edge.

I am convinced Porter will be an NBA All-Star in the near future.
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Hop
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In reply to bobinator • 1:29a, 7/24/17
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AG
bobinator said:
Bamba is 3 inches taller than Williams (according to the Nike Skills Academy) and they're basically the same player otherwise. I don't see a problem with that.

If I were building the perfect college basketball team I'd probably pick Tyler Davis before Williams.


Williams has a freakish wingspan so he plays like a 6-11/7-footer. Williams is one of the best natural collegiate shot blockers since Ewing and his presence on the defensive end is intimidating to all five players on the other team.

No, Williams is clearly the best asset of the two, and that says a lot because Davis us a damn good player as well...but he's not Robert Williams.
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PatAg
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In reply to Hop • 7:49a, 7/24/17
AG
You're right. Davis is a dominating presence on offense. Williams can dunk
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Pumpkinhead
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7:51a, 7/24/17
AG
Robert Williams was #18th nationally in blocked shots per game last season.

http://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/individual/138

Of college freshman, he had the second highest average. Williams had 2.48 blocks per game but a 6'9" freshman named Mike Watkins at Penn State had 2.73.

In terms of really recent player comparisons as a defensive asset, I kind of think about that Jordan Bell guy at Oregon who just got drafted by the Warriors. He finished ranked #25 last season in blocks per game. 6'9" elite jumper with a great sense of timing and who almost single handily dominated Kansas defensively in the NCAA tournament with 8 blocked shots in that game.

Now Bell didn't get grabbed by the Warriors until the second round, but my sense is that Williams has an even longer wingspan and has showed more touch in terms of shooting. Bell's offensive game was mostly as a dunker in college.

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bobinator
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In reply to Hop • 8:32a, 7/24/17
AG
Hop said:
bobinator said:
Bamba is 3 inches taller than Williams (according to the Nike Skills Academy) and they're basically the same player otherwise. I don't see a problem with that.

If I were building the perfect college basketball team I'd probably pick Tyler Davis before Williams.


Williams has a freakish wingspan so he plays like a 6-11/7-footer. Williams is one of the best natural collegiate shot blockers since Ewing and his presence on the defensive end is intimidating to all five players on the other team.

No, Williams is clearly the best asset of the two, and that says a lot because Davis us a damn good player as well...but he's not Robert Williams.
His wingspan is 7-foot-4, which is freakish for his height, and it puts him right on par with Ayton wingspan wise (though he's still a couple inches shorter) but significantly less than Bamba's 7-foot-8.

I don't think he's "clearly" the best asset of the two if we're talking about college basketball and right now. Is he the better prospect? Obviously, but I think Davis is a more dominant force at the moment.

I said this a while back in another thread, but part of the reason Williams is so good is because Davis is on his team. Davis would still be a dominant force if Robert Williams had gone pro, but based on last year's skill set, I'm not sure you could say the same for Williams. If he couldn't roam freely on the defensive end as much he wouldn't have been nearly as effective.

And "one of the best natural collegiate shot blockers since Ewing?" He isn't even in the top five of the 2010's. He was #18 in blocked shots per game in college basketball last season.

I love Williams and he's a fantastic prospect, but come on.
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Pumpkinhead
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In reply to bobinator • 9:34a, 7/24/17
AG
bobinator said:
Hop said:
bobinator said:
Bamba is 3 inches taller than Williams (according to the Nike Skills Academy) and they're basically the same player otherwise. I don't see a problem with that.

If I were building the perfect college basketball team I'd probably pick Tyler Davis before Williams.


Williams has a freakish wingspan so he plays like a 6-11/7-footer. Williams is one of the best natural collegiate shot blockers since Ewing and his presence on the defensive end is intimidating to all five players on the other team.

No, Williams is clearly the best asset of the two, and that says a lot because Davis us a damn good player as well...but he's not Robert Williams.
His wingspan is 7-foot-4, which is freakish for his height, and it puts him right on par with Ayton wingspan wise (though he's still a couple inches shorter) but significantly less than Bamba's 7-foot-8.

I don't think he's "clearly" the best asset of the two if we're talking about college basketball and right now. Is he the better prospect? Obviously, but I think Davis is a more dominant force at the moment.

I said this a while back in another thread, but part of the reason Williams is so good is because Davis is on his team. Davis would still be a dominant force if Robert Williams had gone pro, but based on last year's skill set, I'm not sure you could say the same for Williams. If he couldn't roam freely on the defensive end as much he wouldn't have been nearly as effective.

And "one of the best natural collegiate shot blockers since Ewing?" He isn't even in the top five of the 2010's. He was #18 in blocked shots per game in college basketball last season.

I love Williams and he's a fantastic prospect, but come on.
Yeah, great chance Williams will be ranked top-10 in blocked shots per game this upcoming season, and it is easy to see why he is considered an NBA lottery level prospect. But 'best shot blocker since Ewing' is too much praise as of right now.

Arguing Williams vs. Davis on your college team, as a recent Aggie player comparison, to me that would be like having to choose between either Donald Sloan or Elston Turner as my shooting guard if building a college team from scratch. Do I go with the super athletic, explosive guy who does have some basketball skills but relying on athleticism is a major part of his game, or do I go with the guy who is an average college level athlete but is extremely polished and crafty with angles plus a really smooth shooting stroke? I personally don't think I could go that wrong either way, and who I ultimately pick might depend a ton on who I was putting around him.
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bobinator
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10:03a, 7/24/17
AG
I don't want to derail the thread because this is good conversation, but I'd take Sloan over Turner 10 times out of 10 unless I'm picking for a three point contest.
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Hop
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In reply to bobinator • 11:12a, 7/24/17
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AG
bobinator said:
Hop said:
bobinator said:
Bamba is 3 inches taller than Williams (according to the Nike Skills Academy) and they're basically the same player otherwise. I don't see a problem with that.

If I were building the perfect college basketball team I'd probably pick Tyler Davis before Williams.


Williams has a freakish wingspan so he plays like a 6-11/7-footer. Williams is one of the best natural collegiate shot blockers since Ewing and his presence on the defensive end is intimidating to all five players on the other team.

No, Williams is clearly the best asset of the two, and that says a lot because Davis us a damn good player as well...but he's not Robert Williams.
His wingspan is 7-foot-4, which is freakish for his height, and it puts him right on par with Ayton wingspan wise (though he's still a couple inches shorter) but significantly less than Bamba's 7-foot-8.

I don't think he's "clearly" the best asset of the two if we're talking about college basketball and right now. Is he the better prospect? Obviously, but I think Davis is a more dominant force at the moment.

I said this a while back in another thread, but part of the reason Williams is so good is because Davis is on his team. Davis would still be a dominant force if Robert Williams had gone pro, but based on last year's skill set, I'm not sure you could say the same for Williams. If he couldn't roam freely on the defensive end as much he wouldn't have been nearly as effective.

And "one of the best natural collegiate shot blockers since Ewing?" He isn't even in the top five of the 2010's. He was #18 in blocked shots per game in college basketball last season.

I love Williams and he's a fantastic prospect, but come on.
Clearly, you have it in your mind that Davis is the more valuable player which is fine. Davis is certainly very good and is very efficient at what he does in terms of rebounding, positioning, sealing his man, scoring around the basket. Williams as a freshman had similar scoring numbers (2 pts/gm less), better rebounding numbers (37 more rebounds despite playing less minutes), more blocks (48 more), fewer turnovers (30 fewer), and most importantly something that doesn't show up on the stat line is that he changes/prevents shots on many possessions. Offenses have to account for him and his ability to block shots which affects the mentality of an offense.

Davis is good and makes his teammates better, but Williams is a game changer in several components of his game.
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bobinator
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11:53a, 7/24/17
AG
I think the numbers here are important, but they also might be misleading because they don't take into account how the two play together.

Part of why Williams gets so many rebounds is because Davis is so good at blocking out bigger guys. Basically he blocks out the biggest person, and Williams jumps up for the rebound. Part of why he's so good at put backs and lobs is because usually the other team's biggest player is guarding Davis and not Williams. He has fewer turnovers because he basically never handles the ball offensively because Davis does. If we're trying to run something through the post, we run it through Davis because he's a better passer. And he's a lot freer on the defensive end because usually Davis is guarding the other team's best scoring big man. That allows Williams to have a little bit of freedom to come off his guy and go for blocks and that sort of thing.

For how good he is, there's still a lot of raw in Williams' game that didn't show up as much as it could have last season because Davis is on our team. If Williams was our primary center, his tendency to jump for rebounds instead of blocking out and coming off his guy to go for blocks would have potentially been a problem (or, maybe he wouldn't have done it, which would have lowered his numbers a bit.)

They're both obviously extremely good players. And to be honest there's definitely a good argument for Williams here. I think my promotion of Davis stems from the fact that I'm not sure our fans appreciate him as much as they probably should. He's like an offensive lineman for our basketball team, controlling the paint, drawing extra defenders, freeing up other people to do their thing, etc.
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GE
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In reply to bobinator • 12:24p, 7/24/17
AG
I don't think it's Davis is underappreciated as much as it is Williams is appropriately hyped. If he stays for his senior year, Davis will graduate as one of the best, if not the best, big men to ever play for A&M as a college player.
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Pumpkinhead
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12:34p, 7/24/17
AG
Tyler Davis (junior, 6'10")
Robert Williams (sophomore, 6'9")
Tonny Trocha (senior, 6' 10")
Isiah Jasey (freshman, 6'9")

What other D1 teams in the country next season would anyone be willing to swap our PF/C roster for theirs?
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mdanyc03
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In reply to bobinator • 12:36p, 7/24/17
AG
With all due respect, I find the argument that Tyler Davis is a better college player than Robert Williams to be preposterous. And I am a big fan of Tyler Davis.

I'd be interested if there are any relevant plus/ minus stats but to me Robert Williams surpassed Tyler Davis in early December and by the end of the year it wasn't close. When you watched the Kentucky game at Reed, was there any question who was the best player in maroon and white?

I agree with Hops' point that Robert Williams had better stats and that the stats don't do Robert Williams justice. I think you are very much underestimating the "other" things Robert Williams does better (other than catch alley oops and block shots), such as transition defense and interfering in passing lanes.
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Hop
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In reply to bobinator • 12:43p, 7/24/17
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AG
bobinator said:
I think the numbers here are important, but they also might be misleading because they don't take into account how the two play together.

Part of why Williams gets so many rebounds is because Davis is so good at blocking out bigger guys. Basically he blocks out the biggest person, and Williams jumps up for the rebound. Part of why he's so good at put backs and lobs is because usually the other team's biggest player is guarding Davis and not Williams. He has fewer turnovers because he basically never handles the ball offensively because Davis does. If we're trying to run something through the post, we run it through Davis because he's a better passer. And he's a lot freer on the defensive end because usually Davis is guarding the other team's best scoring big man. That allows Williams to have a little bit of freedom to come off his guy and go for blocks and that sort of thing.

For how good he is, there's still a lot of raw in Williams' game that didn't show up as much as it could have last season because Davis is on our team. If Williams was our primary center, his tendency to jump for rebounds instead of blocking out and coming off his guy to go for blocks would have potentially been a problem (or, maybe he wouldn't have done it, which would have lowered his numbers a bit.)

They're both obviously extremely good players. And to be honest there's definitely a good argument for Williams here. I think my promotion of Davis stems from the fact that I'm not sure our fans appreciate him as much as they probably should. He's like an offensive lineman for our basketball team, controlling the paint, drawing extra defenders, freeing up other people to do their thing, etc.

Like I said, you have it in your mind that Davis is more valuable and so you come up with this notion that Williams was made from the play of Davis...which I think you are greatly over-exaggerating. Davis is very good and efficient at what he does, but you are going overboard to suggest that few of us has the inside eye to see just how good he really is. The fact that Williams did what he did as a freshman with the lack of perimeter assets that A&M had last year tells me more about his abilities than anything else...and that tells us about Davis' abilities as well. He's good...very good. But I'm not going so far as to suggest that Davis "made" Williams last year. Williams made it because he's an athletic freak with a pretty decent skill set for a freshman.
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Pumpkinhead
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12:58p, 7/24/17
AG
I really hope Caldwell lives up to all the buzz (including from Robert Williams' own mouth), 'cause if he does then Caldwell to Williams for the dunk will be fun to watch.
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bobinator
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1:25p, 7/24/17
AG
I didn't say he "made Williams," but I certainly think he helped. I also didn't say I had some sort of special exclusive insider analysis on Davis' abilities, I think most of the regular posters on here realize how good he is also. But I think he's underrated by most people (I said "our fans" not "the 15 people who regularly post on this board") because he isn't particularly flashy.

It still all comes back to this: I think, based on last season, all other things equal, Tyler Davis would be better without Robert Williams than Robert Williams would be without Tyler Davis. Other people think differently, that's fine, it's why the conversation is fun, I don't think there's a definite right answer here.

Part of my argument goes back to the original point of this thread, I think Ayton at Arizona and Bamba at Texas will be better this year than Williams is at the things Williams is good at. So Williams could even potentially be "better" than Davis, but he plays a different position. For me, Davis is maybe the best or second best center in college basketball where Williams is maybe the third or fourth best power forward.

Now, again, we could get into a debate over whether or not anyone needs an old school center and how much value a player like that has in today's game especially if your goal is to play with tempo, but that's why I said I'd probably take Davis over Williams. You'd already have a couple of guys that do what Williams does on the team.
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bobinator
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In reply to mdanyc03 • 1:47p, 7/24/17
AG
mdanyc03 said:
With all due respect, I find the argument that Tyler Davis is a better college player than Robert Williams to be preposterous. And I am a big fan of Tyler Davis.

I'd be interested if there are any relevant plus/ minus stats but to me Robert Williams surpassed Tyler Davis in early December and by the end of the year it wasn't close. When you watched the Kentucky game at Reed, was there any question who was the best player in maroon and white?

I don't think any respect is due () but why is it preposterous?

Kentucky was probably Williams' best game, but it's kind of a good example of what I'm talking about. Davis is banging around with Bam Adebayo most of the game on the offensive end where Williams had Derek Willis and human-wacky-inflatable-arm-man Wenyen Gabriel and is just tomahawking lobs.

Here's Williams' highlights from the game (skip to :20). Look who's guarding him most of the time vs who's guarding Davis.



I will also say that Davis isn't particularly good defensively in zones where Williams is an absolutely elite zone defender, but I think we can assume that this year with our talent back at a respectable level we'll be in zones a lot less.
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3:00a, 7/25/17
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I saw Williams being double teamed in the low post and Davis free for an uncontested dunk on one play.
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mdanyc03
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In reply to bobinator • 8:46a, 7/25/17
AG
Maybe preposterous wasn't the right word. I just don't think it is close. Tyler Davis can be an all time Aggie great, first team all conference, etc. Robert Williams can be the best player in the country, 96 Marcus Camby. If we reach unprecedented heights it will be on the back of Robert Williams.
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bobinator
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9:07a, 7/25/17
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Maybe. Like I said, if he comes back from the summer with any sort of consistent offensive game, be it a few reliable low post moves or a decent jumper, then he definitely could be that good. But right now?

Anyway, there are definitely good arguments for Williams being more valuable than Davis. He's way more athletic, so we can speed the game up with our young but deep backcourt and he'll probably only get better the faster the game gets. So he's probably more versatile than Davis because he can be effective at any tempo. He also showed the beginnings of a jumpshot toward the end of last season so it isn't a giant leap to think he comes back with it this fall.

One of them influences the game more on the offensive end, the other on the defensive end. That's sort of the beauty of having them both is they're the yin and yang of quality post play. For me, Davis is slightly more valuable than Williams right now for reasons I've already explained, but that could change this season for sure.

But I definitely disagree with the notion that if we reach unprecedented heights it will be on Williams' back. He's definitely going to be a workhorse for us, but so is Davis. For that matter so is Gilder, but Williams and Davis could both be exactly as good as they were last year and we could still have the best team we've ever had if our guards are good.
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In reply to bobinator • 9:49a, 7/25/17
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bobinator said:
Maybe. Like I said, if he comes back from the summer with any sort of consistent offensive game, be it a few reliable low post moves or a decent jumper, then he definitely could be that good. But right now?

Anyway, there are definitely good arguments for Williams being more valuable than Davis. He's way more athletic, so we can speed the game up with our young but deep backcourt and he'll probably only get better the faster the game gets. So he's probably more versatile than Davis because he can be effective at any tempo. He also showed the beginnings of a jumpshot toward the end of last season so it isn't a giant leap to think he comes back with it this fall.

One of them influences the game more on the offensive end, the other on the defensive end. That's sort of the beauty of having them both is they're the yin and yang of quality post play. For me, Davis is slightly more valuable than Williams right now for reasons I've already explained, but that could change this season for sure.

But I definitely disagree with the notion that if we reach unprecedented heights it will be on Williams' back. He's definitely going to be a workhorse for us, but so is Davis. For that matter so is Gilder, but Williams and Davis could both be exactly as good as they were last year and we could still have the best team we've ever had if our guards are good.
From November 2015 through March 2019 Davis will have been more valuable to the program than Williams. From November 2016 through March 2018, Williams will have been more valuable to the program than Davis. Any other conclusion is just not supported by the evidence.
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