Former Aggie players only.
I say Dash Harris in his prime before injury.
I say Dash Harris in his prime before injury.
Top 10 nationally heading into the conference tournament.wacarnolds said:
how are we defining "elite" when it comes to the team?
I don't think we will be top 10 if our main ball handler is the worst offensive player in the conference (as Dash was during his prime).GE said:Top 10 nationally heading into the conference tournament.wacarnolds said:
how are we defining "elite" when it comes to the team?
I don't remember Dash being that bad. He couldn't shoot but I don't remember him turning the ball over a lot and I think he could penetrate some.wacarnolds said:I don't think we will be top 10 if our main ball handler is the worst offensive player in the conference (as Dash was during his prime).GE said:Top 10 nationally heading into the conference tournament.wacarnolds said:
how are we defining "elite" when it comes to the team?
Maybe the sophomore version of Acie Law. Or Anthony Collins.
Using offensive rating as a rough approximation of offensive ability, Dash ranked #77 out of 78 his sophomore year and #72 out of 72 his junior year. That's for all guys in the Big 12 that played 40% of the time or more.GE said:I don't remember Dash being that bad. He couldn't shoot but I don't remember him turning the ball over a lot and I think he could penetrate some.wacarnolds said:I don't think we will be top 10 if our main ball handler is the worst offensive player in the conference (as Dash was during his prime).GE said:Top 10 nationally heading into the conference tournament.wacarnolds said:
how are we defining "elite" when it comes to the team?
Maybe the sophomore version of Acie Law. Or Anthony Collins.
Junior year dash on this team would be close to a top ten team.wacarnolds said:I don't think we will be top 10 if our main ball handler is the worst offensive player in the conference (as Dash was during his prime).GE said:Top 10 nationally heading into the conference tournament.wacarnolds said:
how are we defining "elite" when it comes to the team?
Maybe the sophomore version of Acie Law. Or Anthony Collins.
They made the NCAA tournament, yes, but they were unranked going into the conference tournament. There's obviously a large gap between making the tournament and top 10 team, maybe the surrounding talent is that much better now.bobinator said:Junior year dash on this team would be close to a top ten team.wacarnolds said:I don't think we will be top 10 if our main ball handler is the worst offensive player in the conference (as Dash was during his prime).GE said:Top 10 nationally heading into the conference tournament.wacarnolds said:
how are we defining "elite" when it comes to the team?
Maybe the sophomore version of Acie Law. Or Anthony Collins.
He ran point on that team which got to the NCAA's and this team is significantly better at every other position than that one except probably the three. Though you could make a decent case that a junior Hogg will probably be better than a sophomore Middleton.
We ran this starting lineup out for an NCAA Tournament game...
Dash Harris
B.J. Holmes
Khris Middleton
Nathan Walkup
David Loubeau
Do you think Caldwell can be a lock down defender on the perimeter?bobinator said:
There's a lot of variables here though that make this hypothetical hard to nail down.
Like, if J.J. Caldwell statistically has a similar year to junior year Dash Harris, then yeah, we probably aren't elite. But that's not really what we're saying, it's about the actual person and not their statistical results right?
If junior year Dash Harris was on this team, he would basically never shoot and he'd essentially just pass the ball on offense and be a defensive specialist. So his numbers would be quite a bit different.
And this year's team is WAY better at the 2, 4 and 5 positions than that one. That team was a 7 seed, so top 28, I don't think it's crazy to think that replacing that lineup with Harris - Gilder - Hogg - Williams - Davis and our current bench would be a top-ten team.
wacarnolds said:Do you think Caldwell can be a lock down defender on the perimeter?bobinator said:
There's a lot of variables here though that make this hypothetical hard to nail down.
Like, if J.J. Caldwell statistically has a similar year to junior year Dash Harris, then yeah, we probably aren't elite. But that's not really what we're saying, it's about the actual person and not their statistical results right?
If junior year Dash Harris was on this team, he would basically never shoot and he'd essentially just pass the ball on offense and be a defensive specialist. So his numbers would be quite a bit different.
And this year's team is WAY better at the 2, 4 and 5 positions than that one. That team was a 7 seed, so top 28, I don't think it's crazy to think that replacing that lineup with Harris - Gilder - Hogg - Williams - Davis and our current bench would be a top-ten team.
bobinator said:Junior year dash on this team would be close to a top ten team.wacarnolds said:I don't think we will be top 10 if our main ball handler is the worst offensive player in the conference (as Dash was during his prime).GE said:Top 10 nationally heading into the conference tournament.wacarnolds said:
how are we defining "elite" when it comes to the team?
Maybe the sophomore version of Acie Law. Or Anthony Collins.
He ran point on that team which got to the NCAA's and this team is significantly better at every other position than that one except probably the three. Though you could make a decent case that a junior Hogg will probably be better than a sophomore Middleton.
We ran this starting lineup out for an NCAA Tournament game...
Dash Harris
B.J. Holmes
Khris Middleton
Nathan Walkup
David Loubeau
jml2621 said:wacarnolds said:Do you think Caldwell can be a lock down defender on the perimeter?bobinator said:
There's a lot of variables here though that make this hypothetical hard to nail down.
Like, if J.J. Caldwell statistically has a similar year to junior year Dash Harris, then yeah, we probably aren't elite. But that's not really what we're saying, it's about the actual person and not their statistical results right?
If junior year Dash Harris was on this team, he would basically never shoot and he'd essentially just pass the ball on offense and be a defensive specialist. So his numbers would be quite a bit different.
And this year's team is WAY better at the 2, 4 and 5 positions than that one. That team was a 7 seed, so top 28, I don't think it's crazy to think that replacing that lineup with Harris - Gilder - Hogg - Williams - Davis and our current bench would be a top-ten team.
We could play a 2 headed monster with Caldwell and Starks. Chandler is a combo/SG but that provide athletic instant offense guard support. He's a scorer.
JJ can pass, but I'm concerned that defenders may slough off of him and double team inside unless JJ hits and outside shot.
Hop said:jml2621 said:wacarnolds said:Do you think Caldwell can be a lock down defender on the perimeter?bobinator said:
There's a lot of variables here though that make this hypothetical hard to nail down.
Like, if J.J. Caldwell statistically has a similar year to junior year Dash Harris, then yeah, we probably aren't elite. But that's not really what we're saying, it's about the actual person and not their statistical results right?
If junior year Dash Harris was on this team, he would basically never shoot and he'd essentially just pass the ball on offense and be a defensive specialist. So his numbers would be quite a bit different.
And this year's team is WAY better at the 2, 4 and 5 positions than that one. That team was a 7 seed, so top 28, I don't think it's crazy to think that replacing that lineup with Harris - Gilder - Hogg - Williams - Davis and our current bench would be a top-ten team.
We could play a 2 headed monster with Caldwell and Starks. Chandler is a combo/SG but that provide athletic instant offense guard support. He's a scorer.
JJ can pass, but I'm concerned that defenders may slough off of him and double team inside unless JJ hits and outside shot.
Ideally you'd like a point that can shoot outside to keep defenders honest like you said, but lack of perimeter shot can be overcome with elite passing skills, elite ball handling, etc. Caldwell is so quick that he can still beat his man if his man slacks off a step. It also creates opportunities at other perimeter spots. Rondo was very successful in the NBA and he had a marginal perimeter shot.
Hop said:jml2621 said:wacarnolds said:Do you think Caldwell can be a lock down defender on the perimeter?bobinator said:
There's a lot of variables here though that make this hypothetical hard to nail down.
Like, if J.J. Caldwell statistically has a similar year to junior year Dash Harris, then yeah, we probably aren't elite. But that's not really what we're saying, it's about the actual person and not their statistical results right?
If junior year Dash Harris was on this team, he would basically never shoot and he'd essentially just pass the ball on offense and be a defensive specialist. So his numbers would be quite a bit different.
And this year's team is WAY better at the 2, 4 and 5 positions than that one. That team was a 7 seed, so top 28, I don't think it's crazy to think that replacing that lineup with Harris - Gilder - Hogg - Williams - Davis and our current bench would be a top-ten team.
We could play a 2 headed monster with Caldwell and Starks. Chandler is a combo/SG but that provide athletic instant offense guard support. He's a scorer.
JJ can pass, but I'm concerned that defenders may slough off of him and double team inside unless JJ hits and outside shot.
Ideally you'd like a point that can shoot outside to keep defenders honest like you said, but lack of perimeter shot can be overcome with elite passing skills, elite ball handling, etc. Caldwell is so quick that he can still beat his man if his man slacks off a step. It also creates opportunities at other perimeter spots. Rondo was very successful in the NBA and he had a marginal perimeter shot.
mengland said:
My son played with JJ . His outside shot is better than you think. A good comparison would be Collins. Collins would hit enough to keep defenses honest
Hop said:bobinator said:Junior year dash on this team would be close to a top ten team.wacarnolds said:I don't think we will be top 10 if our main ball handler is the worst offensive player in the conference (as Dash was during his prime).GE said:Top 10 nationally heading into the conference tournament.wacarnolds said:
how are we defining "elite" when it comes to the team?
Maybe the sophomore version of Acie Law. Or Anthony Collins.
He ran point on that team which got to the NCAA's and this team is significantly better at every other position than that one except probably the three. Though you could make a decent case that a junior Hogg will probably be better than a sophomore Middleton.
We ran this starting lineup out for an NCAA Tournament game...
Dash Harris
B.J. Holmes
Khris Middleton
Nathan Walkup
David Loubeau
You've got to be kidding? Dash Harris was an extremely limited point guard and it goes far beyond no outside shot. He had no strength or muscle mass. The few times he drove the lane he was crumbled up like a wad of paper and discarded. He was quick on defense and he dribbled well on the perimeter and could beat a trap. That was it. He couldn't collapse a defense driving the hole and he couldn't extend the defense with his outside shot, so he was very, very limited. Caldwell and Starks will be 10x better on the offensive end. We don't know yet what they will do defensively.
bobinator said:Hop said:bobinator said:Junior year dash on this team would be close to a top ten team.wacarnolds said:I don't think we will be top 10 if our main ball handler is the worst offensive player in the conference (as Dash was during his prime).GE said:Top 10 nationally heading into the conference tournament.wacarnolds said:
how are we defining "elite" when it comes to the team?
Maybe the sophomore version of Acie Law. Or Anthony Collins.
He ran point on that team which got to the NCAA's and this team is significantly better at every other position than that one except probably the three. Though you could make a decent case that a junior Hogg will probably be better than a sophomore Middleton.
We ran this starting lineup out for an NCAA Tournament game...
Dash Harris
B.J. Holmes
Khris Middleton
Nathan Walkup
David Loubeau
You've got to be kidding? Dash Harris was an extremely limited point guard and it goes far beyond no outside shot. He had no strength or muscle mass. The few times he drove the lane he was crumbled up like a wad of paper and discarded. He was quick on defense and he dribbled well on the perimeter and could beat a trap. That was it. He couldn't collapse a defense driving the hole and he couldn't extend the defense with his outside shot, so he was very, very limited. Caldwell and Starks will be 10x better on the offensive end. We don't know yet what they will do defensively.
You know that point of the thread isn't "what PG does Caldwell compare to?" Right?
It was "what PG does he have to be as good as for us to have an elite team?"
Dash wasn't good, I literally said that. But if Caldwell is as good as a freshman as Dash was as a junior, then I think that should be good enough for us to be elite.
The whole point is that Caldwell doesn't have to be very good for us as a team to be very good.
He would have been a MAJOR factor on last year's teamHop said:bobinator said:Hop said:bobinator said:Junior year dash on this team would be close to a top ten team.wacarnolds said:I don't think we will be top 10 if our main ball handler is the worst offensive player in the conference (as Dash was during his prime).GE said:Top 10 nationally heading into the conference tournament.wacarnolds said:
how are we defining "elite" when it comes to the team?
Maybe the sophomore version of Acie Law. Or Anthony Collins.
He ran point on that team which got to the NCAA's and this team is significantly better at every other position than that one except probably the three. Though you could make a decent case that a junior Hogg will probably be better than a sophomore Middleton.
We ran this starting lineup out for an NCAA Tournament game...
Dash Harris
B.J. Holmes
Khris Middleton
Nathan Walkup
David Loubeau
You've got to be kidding? Dash Harris was an extremely limited point guard and it goes far beyond no outside shot. He had no strength or muscle mass. The few times he drove the lane he was crumbled up like a wad of paper and discarded. He was quick on defense and he dribbled well on the perimeter and could beat a trap. That was it. He couldn't collapse a defense driving the hole and he couldn't extend the defense with his outside shot, so he was very, very limited. Caldwell and Starks will be 10x better on the offensive end. We don't know yet what they will do defensively.
You know that point of the thread isn't "what PG does Caldwell compare to?" Right?
It was "what PG does he have to be as good as for us to have an elite team?"
Dash wasn't good, I literally said that. But if Caldwell is as good as a freshman as Dash was as a junior, then I think that should be good enough for us to be elite.
The whole point is that Caldwell doesn't have to be very good for us as a team to be very good.
You didn't say he wasnt good. You said he wasn't particularly good or bad indicating he was an average point guard....and that simply wasn't the case, especially on offense. His complete lack of a perimeter game along w his struggles driving to the rim and 50% FT shooting made him virtually inept on offense. Don't get me wrong, I liked Dash. We'll always have the "Cookie Monster" and he was a likable kid, but other than an occasional steal that was about it.
mengland said:
My son played with JJ . His outside shot is better than you think. A good comparison would be Collins. Collins would hit enough to keep defenses honest
bobinator said:
Pretty sure he meant Anthony Collins