Player Development Thread- Admon Gilder

mdanyc03
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First of all, I think Admon has a pretty well developed game without any huge or obvious deficiencies.

Here are some things I think he does exceptionally well.

- I think Admon is an even better perimeter defender than we give him credit for. He was near the top of the league in steals (averaged 1.9 per game; Caruso average 2.1 per game in comparison, none of our other guards had more than 0.5 per game which was a huge problem). But I think he was an even better on the ball defender. Ask Malik Monk. I am very excited to seem him play alongside better perimeter defenders. I think that will give him more freedom to jump lanes and get even more steals.

- Admon shot a very solid 37% on threes and that would have been even higher except 1) he was the one that had to jack up low percentage end of shot clock threes when nothing was going on and 2) he faded down the stretch as he just kinda wore down and was playing dinged up a bit.

- Admon is very good in the open floor. Great footwork and great balance.

I think the one thing that I see that Admon could work on is getting to the rim in half court. His footwork and finishing is pretty advanced once he gets in the lane but he isn't yet a guy that can regularly blow past his man and get into the paint in half court. Maybe a better cross over or something.

Besides that I don't see anything I really think he needs to add. He can just get a bit better at everything he does and cut down on turnovers a bit.

I think best case scenario for Admon is that he becomes an absolute lights out three point shooter. 43% or something like that.

What do you think?
hoya-ag
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He isn't bad by any means, but he needs to work on his handle.
bobinator
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It's hard to really judge Admon since he didn't play much his freshman year, and he was our only reliable guard last year.

I think he could definitely be better off the dribble, but the biggest thing I see from him is at times he's a flat out lazy passer, especially on passes into the post. Some of that might have been because he was exhausted, but it killed us at times.

What will be interesting about Admon to me is what exactly is his role in the offense next year if the freshmen are able to handle the load at point? He's not particularly good off the dribble, so could Admon potentially be a three-point specialist? Basically either pull the three or pump fake and drive the basket. Kind of like a shorter Josh Carter type role?

It sounds crazy when you think about what all he did this season, but if he doesn't have the handle the ball all the time I wonder if he would be exceptionally good at that. And if he is, what does that mean for DJ Hogg?
wacarnolds
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bobinator said:

It sounds crazy when you think about what all he did this season, but if he doesn't have the handle the ball all the time I wonder if he would be exceptionally good at that. And if he is, what does that mean for DJ Hogg?
No reason you can't have multiple guys standing around the perimeter ready to nail a 3
wacarnolds
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Agree with everyone that he's already very good at most aspects of the game. Just continue to get better at his outside shot and valuing possession and I think he has a good shot at 1st team/2nd team All-SEC.
bobinator
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You can play them together, no question, I guess I'm just wondering what DJ Hogg does that Admon doesn't do better at this point.

Maybe it's a question better saved for the Hogg player development thread, but I wonder where he fits in scheme-wise next year.
mdanyc03
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bobinator said:

You can play them together, no question, I guess I'm just wondering what DJ Hogg does that Admon doesn't do better at this point.

Maybe it's a question better saved for the Hogg player development thread, but I wonder where he fits in scheme-wise next year.
If Admon and DJ both take on the role as primarily spot up shooters then I think they are fairly complementary in all other aspects of the game.

DJ is a good offensive rebounder. Admon is a good transition defender. So DJ can crash the boards and Admon can get back.

Admon can lead a fast break and DJ is pretty good at filling a lane and finishing or can obviously flare out and spot up in transition.

They would guard different types of players defensively.
wacarnolds
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bobinator said:

You can play them together, no question, I guess I'm just wondering what DJ Hogg does that Admon doesn't do better at this point.

Maybe it's a question better saved for the Hogg player development thread, but I wonder where he fits in scheme-wise next year.
Neither player is a ball-stopper and both can contribute in multiple ways offensively. Admon is the ideal 2 and Hogg is a solid 3, don't see any problem at all with them co-existing.
Pumpkinhead
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Hogg is a legit 6'9" and Gilder is about 6'3". Bob, that is a pretty significant difference in height and length.
bobinator
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It is, but it's not like Hogg uses his height particularly well. Now, as we've all been saying for a while, if he could develop any sort of low post game that changes things quite a bit.

And obviously they have different roles on defense, that's why I was specific to offense, but I just worry that ball movement might be a problem when they're both out there. Neither one is particularly skilled at passing and both struggled with turnovers at times this year. (Though again, that goes back to whether they'll have the same issues with more talented guards around them.)

But it's just a question I have, not saying it's definitely a problem. Like everyone else I think Admon is really good in most aspects of the game. But that's sort of my point. Most of the time he'll be our best off-guard, but against certain teams and with certain personnel, I wonder if we might be better with him at the three in a small guard lineup than we are with Hogg there.
Pumpkinhead
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bobinator said:

Neither one is particularly skilled at passing
Bob, Hogg averaged 3.4 assists per game last season. He has definitely shown flashes of being a good passer for a 6'9" wing type guy.

I personally think some of Hogg's problems last season were partly related to him trying to do too much in terms of being a perimeter creator/ball handler on a team that was lacking much playmaking ability in that regard. Let's see how things go when there is a more talented set of guards around him.

I don't see as much overlap between Gilder and Hogg as you do. I think you could play both those guys on the court at the same time just fine, the issue is more they need a good PG to also play with.
bobinator
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He also averaged 2.7 turnovers. And I didn't say he was a bad passer, I just said he isn't a particularly skilled one. Because of his height he is a little better than throwing the ball into the post than Gilder.

I don't want this to seem like I'm being negative about a couple of our best players, because I'm really not overall, but I thought the point of these development threads was to nitpick and raise concerns, and that's just one I have. It might be something that isn't an issue at all. Maybe without having the other team's primary on-ball defender on him all the time Gilder will be able to slash and cut more effectively. And maybe without having to put the ball on the floor against the second best on-ball defender, Hogg's turnovers come way down. Both are entirely possible.
mdanyc03
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Quote:

And I didn't say he was a bad passer, I just said he isn't a particularly skilled one.
We are derailing ourselves a bit but I would argue that DJ is in fact both a skilled passer and a bad passer. He is creative, has good vision and makes some brilliant passes from time to time, more so than any of our other perimeter players from last year. He is also sloppy and careless and tries to do too much at times.

Admon I would argue is both more solid and consistent as a passer but also less creative. And by creative I mean actually creating things and opening things up with a pass that wasn't obvious. Admon's turnovers were a bit high too but I would argue that was more about too many minutes and too much time on the ball (as you argued above) rather than truly unforced turnovers, which were more a problem for Tyler and DJ. Admon can stand to be more careful with the ball too though.
wacarnolds
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bobinator said:

He also averaged 2.7 turnovers. And I didn't say he was a bad passer, I just said he isn't a particularly skilled one. Because of his height he is a little better than throwing the ball into the post than Gilder.

I don't want this to seem like I'm being negative about a couple of our best players, because I'm really not overall, but I thought the point of these development threads was to nitpick and raise concerns, and that's just one I have. It might be something that isn't an issue at all. Maybe without having the other team's primary on-ball defender on him all the time Gilder will be able to slash and cut more effectively. And maybe without having to put the ball on the floor against the second best on-ball defender, Hogg's turnovers come way down. Both are entirely possible.
In your opinion, what does a better 2/3 pairing look like? Assume JJ Caldwell is a capable distributor that shoots 30% from 3.

What do you want your 2/3 to do that Gilder/Hogg are incapable of?
Ajm1115
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Handles, and I would like to seem him develop his left hand a bit more, he has it but it only takes him so far.
AggieBaller98
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Gilder as a freshman played significant minutes and made that last basket against Northern Iowa in our epic comeback in the tournament. He acquired quite a bit of experience in crunch time.

Last year he arguably became the go-to guy and we saw him play the whole game 8 games in a row. His last year reminds me of Alex's junior year in which he was depended on to do everything for the team and seemed to lose steam at the end of the year.

In my opinion, this year it's not so much how much he can contribute on the court because I think he will get better, but I'm counting on him to be a more vocal leader. We're gonna need a steady presence when things aren't going our way and because he's going to have the ball on his hands more than Williams and Davis. I'm expecting him to command the troops and have the ability to finish games better.

Edit... to add that he will play better by the simple fact that he was snubbed for the All-SEC team this past year.
bobinator
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wacarnolds said:


In your opinion, what does a better 2/3 pairing look like? Assume JJ Caldwell is a capable distributor that shoots 30% from 3.

What do you want your 2/3 to do that Gilder/Hogg are incapable of?
Well, you need one of them to be able to get to the basket or get into the midrange and score, and I'm not sure either one can do it with any sort of consistency. Gilder was a mediocre two point shooter this year, but Hogg was pretty bad. (42% on all 2s, and 29.8% on two point jump shots which is really bad considering that needs to be a significant part of his game.)

So based on what they did last year, you basically have two guys on the floor and neither one of them is much of a threat to attack the basket. That means you can run out pretty aggressively on the three point line and not really worry about them making you pay for it. So zones are probably going to be pretty effective against that group.

As for what a better pairing looks like, I'm not sure, it depends on what exactly the freshmen are bringing to the table and we won't know that until we play a few games.

Again, this is nitpicking, and it has more to do with Hogg than it does with Gilder. As in, should we be getting Gilder more shots at the expense of shots for Hogg?
USNAggie44
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bobinator said:

He also averaged 2.7 turnovers. And I didn't say he was a bad passer, I just said he isn't a particularly skilled one. Because of his height he is a little better than throwing the ball into the post than Gilder.

I don't want this to seem like I'm being negative about a couple of our best players, because I'm really not overall, but I thought the point of these development threads was to nitpick and raise concerns, and that's just one I have. It might be something that isn't an issue at all. Maybe without having the other team's primary on-ball defender on him all the time Gilder will be able to slash and cut more effectively. And maybe without having to put the ball on the floor against the second best on-ball defender, Hogg's turnovers come way down. Both are entirely possible.

While I think that Gilder can reduce his turnovers, I think that 2.7 isn't really that bad given all the time that he played and him being forced into ball handling situations. He had to handle the ball too much because the deficiencies in the roster.

Looking at turnovers per 40 minutes, he averaged 3.1, which is less than Caruso did every single year during his career. Although Caruso had more assists, Admon played so much time (often the entire game and more than Caruso did any year), which only results in more careless passes stemming from being tired.

He can improve his passing and ball control, but I would rather him focus on shooting since we have so many ball handlers coming in this year.
wacarnolds
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bobinator said:

wacarnolds said:


In your opinion, what does a better 2/3 pairing look like? Assume JJ Caldwell is a capable distributor that shoots 30% from 3.

What do you want your 2/3 to do that Gilder/Hogg are incapable of?
Well, you need one of them to be able to get to the basket or get into the midrange and score, and I'm not sure either one can do it with any sort of consistency. Gilder was a mediocre two point shooter this year, but Hogg was pretty bad. (42% on all 2s, and 29.8% on two point jump shots which is really bad considering that needs to be a significant part of his game.)

So based on what they did last year, you basically have two guys on the floor and neither one of them is much of a threat to attack the basket. That means you can run out pretty aggressively on the three point line and not really worry about them making you pay for it. So zones are probably going to be pretty effective against that group.

As for what a better pairing looks like, I'm not sure, it depends on what exactly the freshmen are bringing to the table and we won't know that until we play a few games.

Again, this is nitpicking, and it has more to do with Hogg than it does with Gilder. As in, should we be getting Gilder more shots at the expense of shots for Hogg?

Man f a 2 pt jump shot. Worst shot in basketball, last thing we need is to take a bunch of 18 ft jumpshots off the dribble.

Agree that attacking the rim is an issue with those 2, but consider the alternative with Flagg in place of Hogg. Now you have 4 guys on the court that can't shoot from the outside and the best thing about the team, our post guys, get taken out of the offense by a simple zone defense.
wacarnolds
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And I don't get the "Gilder is taking Hogg's shots" comcern. Assuming Caldwell gets the majority of run at the 1, you need more shooters on the court, not less.
bobinator
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It's not about 18 ft jumpshots, it's about ~10 foot jumpshots for Hogg. He has to develop some sort of midrange game or he's way too easy to guard. He needs that shot where if someone small is guarding him, he can back them down to about 8-10 feet and then shoot right over them.

Maybe I'm wording that wrong, but I'm not concerned that Gilder might be taking shots from Hogg, I'm potentially concerned that Hogg might be taking shots that would be better if Gilder were taking them.
Uncle Gunnysack
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i thought he finished well in the half court, it was always on the break is when i remember him throwing up bricks. im most interested to see how his role on defense changes when hes on the court at the same time as wilson.
bobinator
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I was talking about 2.7 for Hogg, but Admon averaged the same number per game so admittedly that was confusing.

The way Admon and Hogg turned it over was pretty different though. Hogg was just weak with the ball a lot, Admon looked like he was lazy with the ball at times. He'd just pass it to nowhere or he wouldn't really make any attempt to fake the defense and he'd just sort of toss the ball into the post and the defense would flock to it.

Another thing with Admon, just to get the thread back to Admon-focused instead of Hogg-focused (apologies), is that it's hard to say what he's really capable of physically because he was having to play so much. If he knew he was going to get a few breaks, maybe we'd see some more burst out of him and that sort of thing. It completely changes your mentality on the court if you know you're never coming out.

Going back to my first post, that's why it's pretty hard to pinpoint things for Admon because we have no idea what deficiencies he actually has versus what it looked like he had because he was playing so much and had no help.
Uncle Gunnysack
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plus the fact that he always had to guard the opponents best player. why i think having wilson will be a big positive for admons game.
hoya-ag
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Hogg does not need a mid-range game. He needs to shot the ball consistently from 3. if he does that everything else will be fine.
greg.w.h
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hoya-ag said:

Hogg does not need a mid-range game. He needs to shot the ball consistently from 3. if he does that everything else will be fine.


Developing a drive and pull up or a fall-away jumper given his height would benefit him.
wacarnolds
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greg.w.h said:

hoya-ag said:

Hogg does not need a mid-range game. He needs to shot the ball consistently from 3. if he does that everything else will be fine.


Developing a drive and pull up or a fall-away jumper given his height would benefit him.
in general, the more shots you have in your arsenal the better... but from an analytical standpoint, you probably couldn't come up with 2 worse shots.
greg.w.h
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He either only shoots from behind the arc or he develops more game. <shrugs>
wacarnolds
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greg.w.h said:

He either only shoots from behind the arc or he develops more game. <shrugs>

Get better shooting the 3 + Get stronger finishing down low + Get stronger handling the ball

That's the recipe for a million dollar career
Method Man
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Middleton did it with mid range.
Uncle Gunnysack
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it was a nice comparison after one year, but middleton just had/has a much better feel for the game
PatAg
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wacarnolds said:

greg.w.h said:

He either only shoots from behind the arc or he develops more game. <shrugs>

Get better shooting the 3 + Get stronger finishing down low + Get stronger handling the ball

That's the recipe for a million dollar career
I would guess bob's solution is a lot more of a natural progression then Hogg suddenly being able to dribble past people and finish at the hole.
Method Man
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Uncle Gunnysack said:

it was a nice comparison after one year, but middleton just had/has a much better feel for the game


Assuming better work ethic as well
Pumpkinhead
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Method Man said:

Middleton did it with mid range.


Most college players don't seem to have much of a polished mid-range game though. Neither do the pros really. Threes or dunks gets most of the focus.

Danuel House had sh#% for a midrange game. Shoot a three or go to the rim was most of his toolset.

I personally would rather Hogg work on goals of being a 40% three point shooter and 80% free throw shooter over this summer than working on a midrange game. Though I have seen video clips of his summer workouts before and it has included of course a variety of shooting drills.
94chem
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Hogg, Williams, and Davis should be able to dominate the glass the way that UNC did the past 2 seasons. We should just abuse people on the boards.
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