Player Development Thread- Tyler Davis

mdanyc03
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So, off season topic.. I thought it would be interesting to talk about the key guys on the roster, where you hope to see them improve in the offseason, and how optimistic you are about that.

So, I will put out Tyler Davis to start.

1. Continue conditioning improvement/ athletic development. We shouldn't underestimate how far guys can come physically during their college careers. Even a guy like Jalen Jones said he increased his vertical leap by 6 inches during his time at A&M. Tyler is never going to jump out of the gym, but every extra inch he adds to his vertical makes a big difference for defensive rebounding and for finishing at the rim when he doesn't have great position. Also his conditioning needs to continue to improve and he is a very hard worker so I am sure it will.

2. Free throw shooting. Tyler has the stroke to be a very good free throw shooter and obviously he gets to the line a lot so this is very important. He improved from 63% to 69% last year. I think he can get up to 75% this year. That is worth half a point per game, which is a lot.

3. Three point shooting- Okay, I know a lot of you are going to disagree with this. But I think Tyler can become a solid three point shooter and he needs to be able to shoot the three if he is ever going to make lots of money playing basketball. What I have in mind here are guys like Al Horford and Boogie Cousins. Horford didn't make a single three pointer his entire career at Florida. Now he shoots 3.6 per game at a decent rate. Boogie Cousins basically didn't shoot any threes his first four years in the league now shoots over 5 per game.

Obviously we don't need or want Tyler shooting that many. But I think he is capable. Those guys had the luxury of developing that shot 4+ years into the pro careers, but it will add 5 years to the end of their careers (think Sam Perkins). Tyler will need to develop that shot earlier in his career if he is going to break through.

What does it mean for the team? I don't want him shooting more than 1-2 max per game and certainly only when he has wide open, straight away looks. But when he can do that we can space the floor better and make better use of Robert Williams. They put their biggest guy on Tyler, so bring him to the top of the key and let him make the entry pass to Robert against an undersized and over matched defender. Also you can do pick and pop with JJ or Admon with a lob option to Robert Williams. Imagine how beautiful that could be if executed properly.

He started taking a few more mid range jumpers late in the season and looked pretty good on them. Hit a couple of 17 footers or so. If you can make a 17 footer, you should be taking a step back and shooting the three.

What do you think?
bobinator
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One and two I 100% agree with. Every little improvement Tyler makes from an athletic standpoint or a stamina standpoint makes a big difference for our team, and the same with his free throw shooting. But to be honest, that's probably true of every player.

I sort of agree with #3, but instead of three pointers I just think he needs to be decent out to about 10 feet. He needs to have a decent enough mid-range shot that defenders have to guard him outside of the paint. Right now they don't have to guard him out there, so if gets the ball in the midrange he has to try and back them all the way into the paint and that's where he gets in trouble with travels and turnovers.

I get what you're saying, and yeah, obviously anyone being a better three point shooter would be nice, but I Davis becoming any kind of threat from deep seems like wishful thinking. Nobody is going to guard him out there, so he'd have to become incredibly good at it to change how people defend him and I just don't see any way that happens.
bobinator
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My #1 thing for Tyler is what I alluded to in the middle there, he has to cut down on his turnovers. They weren't all his fault, and I get why he was trying to do too much sometimes, but he had entirely too many last season.
CactusThomas
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His turnovers were caused in part by injuries to his hand/fingers. He had better hands his freshman year and I expect we will see that again.
bobinator
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Yeah, but he also travelled a lot and was trying to do spin moves 15 feet from the basket and that sort of thing.

Obviously, I'm nit-picking here, I think Tyler is our best player and will be an all-time A&M great. Even potentially an All-American if we have a good enough season.
CactusThomas
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Everybody traveled a lot this past year since the refs arbitrarily decided to start calling walks every time a player hesitates.
mdanyc03
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Quote:

but instead of three pointers I just think he needs to be decent out to about 10 feet. He needs to have a decent enough mid-range shot that defenders have to guard him outside of the paint. Right now they don't have to guard him out there,
100% fair to disagree with the general argument and I figured many/most of you would.

I do think though you are overestimating how far he has to go. He regularly shot that free throw line jump shot (especially late in the shot clock) and considering that he is a 69% free throw shooter, that has to be guarded. And as I mentioned, there were at least a couple of times late in the season when he hit one from 17-18 feet straight away.

I guess maybe you are referring to the baseline and I agree he is less comfortable taking the baseline jumper. But I am less concerned about that because he can really create spacing very well stretching out on the baseline anyway. But when you can just shoot the straight away 3 pointer you open up that high/ low post game and that is beautiful.

This is going way back but one I kinda have in mind is Dwight Stewart on the championship Arkansas teams. Big, fat guy and he only shot from straight away but they would go high/ low with him to create space for Corliss Williamson and if his man sagged off at all he would take the three. He was actually a worse shooter than Tyler (free throw percentage, etc was lower) and he would never shoot from anywhere but straight away. Tyler is a better all around player, but just referring to that one element of his game.
bobinator
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I get what you're saying, we had a good example in Joseph Jones. He didn't shoot it much early (3 attempts his freshman year, 19 his sophomore) and got better as he went along, but even those attempts are a lot more that Tyler who only has one three point attempt in his career.

If he develops it in the gym, then good for him, but I wouldn't build "improve TD's three pointer" into my workout plan if I was his coach.
mdanyc03
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Yes Joseph jones is a good example too
zooguy96
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He needs a mid range jumper
wacarnolds
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Less turnovers, better defensive rebounding
LouisvilleAg
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If I was to make a comparison of who TD could be in the NBA, it would Zach Randolph. A great rebounder, a beast inside and can every once in awhile, step out to three when he is wide open.
AggieBaller98
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zooguy96 said:

He needs a mid range jumper
I get what you're saying about his capability of shooting a 3, but we really don't need him to do that. He has enough on his plate about continuing to learn how to play in the low block and extend his game to about the free throw line and being a decent passer. Even when he took these shots, he looked uncomfortable to me so he needs to get his comfort level up pretty high before even thinking a 3 point shot to his game.

At the end of the shot clock, you'd prefer that Caldwell, Gilder, Hogg, Wilson or even Trocha take those 3's and not Davis.

If we have Davis taking a 3, who's going to be near the bucket for an offensive rebound?

We need Davis near the basket at all times where he is most effective.
mdanyc03
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I just think in modern basketball it is tough if you have two guys on the floor at the same time who can't shoot the three.

Robert Williams and Tyler Davis will work together well when one (at least) of them can shoot a three. Until then we will always have spacing problems
bobinator
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I know this is the Tyler Davis "what could he improve" thread, but if "one of them has to be able to hit a three" is your premise, then Williams is WAY more likely to be the answer.

But I don't think the premise is true anyway. You don't always need four guys on the floor who can hit the three. Neither Isaiah Hicks nor Kennedy Meeks nor the big man off the bench Tony Bradley attempted a three pointer all season for North Carolina.
AggieBaller98
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And out of those two I prefer Williams taking the outside jumper like he had been at the end of the season.

Williams is our most athletic player but Davis is our best low block player so why would you want Davis taking those 3's?

Spacing becomes an issue when you don't have anyone that can take the ball to the hole with ease or have the ability to shoot an open jump shot consistently.

We were 7th in the nation last year in offensive rebounding percentage at 36.1%. There is no reason why we shouldn't be in the top 3 next year and this is why we cannot afford Davis to start taking jumpshots. We need him to secure offensive rebounds and utilize his soft hands to finish plays and accumulate "and 1's". He's much more effective collecting 3 point plays the conventional way rather than 21 feet away from the basket.
Pumpkinhead
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mdanyc03 said:

Until then we will always have spacing problems
Last season, we were often playing at least one guy out on the perimeter who was a minimal offensive threat (either driving or as a shooter).

It was so bad on the perimeter, that TexAgs was going around and around chasing its tail arguing about which was the least worst options of the pu-pu platter below.

Chris Collins - 13.7 minutes per game, 1.4 ppg, 24.2 3P%
Chase Carlton - 7.8 minutes per game, 0.2 ppg, 0.0 3P%
Caleb Smith - 7.2 minutes per game, 1.6 ppg, 25.0 3P%
Kobe Eubanks - 6.9 minutes per game, 0.9 ppg, 0.1 3P%





mdanyc03
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I'm talking about literally 1-2 shots per game. That isn't going to impact our offensive rebounding numbers. Just allows us to create space for a high/ low game with the two bigs.
bobinator
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It won't really though. Tyler Davis is so good in the paint, that unless he's some sort of deep range assassin nobody is going to guard him out there so it isn't going to affect our spacing on offense. And if he had that ability I think we'd have already seen it.

Nobody ever guarded Joseph Jones or Antanas out there even though they showed they could make it sometimes.

I just think you're talking about an entirely new facet of the game that Tyler Davis hasn't shown any inclination of being good at for only a marginal benefit.
mdanyc03
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I think the fundamental difference in opinion here is that you think Tyler is further away from this than I do. I think Tyler is significantly closer than Robert Williams to being a consistent option on a wide open straight away three. Robert is more eager to take the three but that doesn't mean better. Tyler has a cleaner release and much cleaner back spin on his shot. That is why he was a much better free throw shooter.

I really don't think he is that far off.

We aren't talking about Deandre here. We are talking about a guy who almost shot 70% on free throws with a very nice looking release and shot at a pretty decent clip on 15 foot jumpers.
Uncle Gunnysack
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Joe was also like a 78% FT shooter and almost all his threes were from the top of the key. Most of them i remember was him being the trailer in transition and just catching the defense off guard. not exactly spacing the floor.
greg.w.h
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Joe at the top of the key pulled help side out of the paint. The 4 to 5 pairings don't really do that now. The hope was TTM could get a defender to commit and create a seam for a pass to Tyler.

Though RW isn't a distance threat per se, he created well at mid range and got the ball to Tyler. But since Tyler isn't really an above the rim player, he either had the size and footwork advantage or got collapsed on and when double teamed seemed to overly commit to muscling it through.

If he improves athleticism and strength that might turn. Otherwise he needs touches leading defense collapsing and kicking a pass out more judiciously.
bobinator
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I think if we had a shot chart we'd see that Davis was pretty bad at jumpers. I could be wrong, but there's a reason he doesn't shoot them very often.
bobinator
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hoop-math.com has him at 38.9% at 2pt jump shots, which is worse than Williams
mdanyc03
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bobinator said:

hoop-math.com has him at 38.9% at 2pt jump shots, which is worse than Williams


Ah so just throw out the 7pct that Williams shot on three pointers. Manipulating data.
bobinator
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Just saying... That's the only "2 point jumper" data I could find, and it seems to indicate that Tyler isn't good at it. I assume the person is culling the box scores which only differentiate dunks, layups, jumpers and three pointers. So even some of those "jumpers" could have come in the paint.

But like I said, I get what you're saying but I just don't think "we need to improve Tyler's three point shooting" is something the coaches are throwing around a lot in the offseason.

But we all agree he needs to have a consistent 10-15 foot jumper. If he has that, we'd be basically unstoppable on offense unless we're just ice cold from outside.
USNAggie44
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I hope that Williams develops a solid jumper, because I feel like he will keep shooting 3's even with a bad percentage to show he can space the floor.

Davis clanked a bunch of open mid-range jumpers this season, but I think he can improve it based off the mechanics of his shot and free throw percentage.
PatAg
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David would be better served at learning to handle the double down on the post. Either making move earlier, passing out of it, or the mid range j/Tim Duncan bank.

It's never even entered my mind that he is someone you'd hAve shoot 3s
jml2621
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CactusThomas said:

His turnovers were caused in part by injuries to his hand/fingers. He had better hands his freshman year and I expect we will see that again.

Tyler was also getting hacked the entire year. Also, Hampton and Collins weren't getting open and are midgets away - hard to see.
jml2621
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bobinator said:

Just saying... That's the only "2 point jumper" data I could find, and it seems to indicate that Tyler isn't good at it. I assume the person is culling the box scores which only differentiate dunks, layups, jumpers and three pointers. So even some of those "jumpers" could have come in the paint.

But like I said, I get what you're saying but I just don't think "we need to improve Tyler's three point shooting" is something the coaches are throwing around a lot in the offseason.

But we all agree he needs to have a consistent 10-15 foot jumper. If he has that, we'd be basically unstoppable on offense unless we're just ice cold from outside.


Yep. If Davis want to play in the league he needs this.
txag72
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Davis needs to deveiop something besides a rebound/put back but If he shoots more than 1 3-pointer this year that will be too many.

A lot of his TO'ers just seemed to be out of frustration last year. We were so incompetent at making quality passes to get the ball inside it was like he would do anything before he willingly put the ball back into a guards hands......and was probably correct in taking the risk.
zooguy96
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AggieBaller98 said:

zooguy96 said:

He needs a mid range jumper
I get what you're saying about his capability of shooting a 3, but we really don't need him to do that. He has enough on his plate about continuing to learn how to play in the low block and extend his game to about the free throw line and being a decent passer. Even when he took these shots, he looked uncomfortable to me so he needs to get his comfort level up pretty high before even thinking a 3 point shot to his game.

At the end of the shot clock, you'd prefer that Caldwell, Gilder, Hogg, Wilson or even Trocha take those 3's and not Davis.

If we have Davis taking a 3, who's going to be near the bucket for an offensive rebound?

We need Davis near the basket at all times where he is most effective.
Actually, I never mentioned him needing to shoot 3's. He needs to develop a mid-range game to be more effective. He's always open from 15. He also needs to learn a baby hook.
mdanyc03
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txag72 said:

Davis needs to deveiop something besides a rebound/put back back.


Huh? Tyler Davis has the best repertoire of low post moves of any big man in the sec. by far.
txag72
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I just meant to develop a shot outside of 5' as everyone is saying. I was just insinuating that that is about the only way he can get his hands on the ball.
PatAg
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zooguy96 said:

AggieBaller98 said:

zooguy96 said:

He needs a mid range jumper
I get what you're saying about his capability of shooting a 3, but we really don't need him to do that. He has enough on his plate about continuing to learn how to play in the low block and extend his game to about the free throw line and being a decent passer. Even when he took these shots, he looked uncomfortable to me so he needs to get his comfort level up pretty high before even thinking a 3 point shot to his game.

At the end of the shot clock, you'd prefer that Caldwell, Gilder, Hogg, Wilson or even Trocha take those 3's and not Davis.

If we have Davis taking a 3, who's going to be near the bucket for an offensive rebound?

We need Davis near the basket at all times where he is most effective.
Actually, I never mentioned him needing to shoot 3's. He needs to develop a mid-range game to be more effective. He's always open from 15. He also needs to learn a baby hook.
I think he confused you with the OP, who was talking about adding the 3, and the conversation up to that point. Maybe he hit quote instead of reply.
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