Possible Realignment - Wichita St to AAC

4,754 Views | 71 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by wacarnolds
wacarnolds
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TXAggie2011 said:

Meh. The NCAA rewards going out and playing and beating other competitive teams that are doing the same. Go do that and you'll get a nice seed. Hard to be too upset over that theory.

The counter to this argument is how much access every individual team has to these marquee games. I don't know the facts behind Wichita State's attempts to schedule difficult games and if they've been rebuffed, but in general the High-major teams have little incentive to schedule games against low/mid-major teams like Wichita State.

Not sure what the solution is, or if there is one.
Double Diamond
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WSU is moving, because they can't scedule enough games and the Valley doesn't offer enough quality games. Again, you ever talk to these coaches? Marshall has gone on the record that he will play anyone anywhere. All he wants is a return game. Gets very few power 5 schools signing up. Mick Cronin in a bit better situation in the AAC has said over and over again he cannot get power 5 schools to play Cincinnati. Michigan just backed out of a home and home they had. Dan Muller at ISU was on twitter before his team played in the NIT begging for better games. Fell of deaf ears. And now with WSU leaving the Valley ISU has even less quality games.

The point is, the power schools don't have to schedule. They can sit back. Let their teams grow and just pick up top 50 wins in league.
TXAggie2011
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Cronin can ***** all he wants but he was a 6-seed with a KenPom of 23.
TXAggie2011
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Quote:

The counter to this argument is how much access every individual team has to these marquee games. I don't know the facts behind Wichita State's attempts to schedule difficult games and if they've been rebuffed, but in general the High-major teams have little incentive to schedule games against low/mid-major teams like Wichita State.

Not sure what the solution is, or if there is one.
Tournaments are good for the mid-majors, and the big conferences haven't shown a shyness about going to those tournaments. Wichita State played LSU, Louisville, and Michigan State at Atlantis this past season.

They had Oklahoma, too, and Oklahoma State played in Wichita this season. The year prior, Utah came to Wichita. Tennessee and Alabama went up there before that. Etc.


I'm not saying the system is perfect, and I've defended plenty of weaker conference teams whether it be basketball or baseball or whatever, but New Mexico, San Diego State, Wichita State, Gonzaga, whoever...these clubs figure out how to put it together sometimes. Ultimately, its about hiring and retaining good coaches. Which is the same recipe for most of us, too. We know that well at Texas A&M.
_lefraud_
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Why should or why would any p5 school play against a mid-major on the road and/or neutral court?

You've got to entice these schools, but I'm just not sure what can be offered for a p5 school to hop on a plane to go play Wichita.
Double Diamond
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WSU was replacing starting five from prior season. And because of conference was expected to hit the ground running and win key games in the first week of season. Power schools don't have to do this. They can lose key early games. Grow as a team and get going in conference and get a good seed. I don't have a problem with UC being a six. Doesn't change the fact teams won't sign up to play them.
Double Diamond
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If power 5s won't play power house non power 5. Is why Kenpom and stuff like this needs to be looked at more than RPI. And why it will be used moving forward. Parish and Norlander are of the same way of thinking as me. And both say it's coming. Just a matter of time. And the team sheets with top 50 wins that the committee only really looks at won't be used.
wacarnolds
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TXAggie2011 said:


Quote:

The counter to this argument is how much access every individual team has to these marquee games. I don't know the facts behind Wichita State's attempts to schedule difficult games and if they've been rebuffed, but in general the High-major teams have little incentive to schedule games against low/mid-major teams like Wichita State.

Not sure what the solution is, or if there is one.
Tournaments are good for the mid-majors, and the big conferences haven't shown a shyness about going to those tournaments. Wichita State played LSU, Louisville, and Michigan State at Atlantis this past season.

Oklahoma and Oklahoma State played in Wichita this season. The year prior, Utah came to Wichita. Tennessee and Alabama went up there before that. Etc.


I'm not saying the system is perfect, and I've defended plenty of weaker conference teams whether it be basketball or baseball or whatever, but New Mexico, San Diego State, Wichita State, Gonzaga, whoever...these clubs figure out how to put it together sometimes. Ultimately, its about hiring and retaining good coaches. Which is the same recipe for most of us, too. We know that well at Texas A&M.

So WSU got 5 high-major teams on their schedule, and they went 2-3. A&M can completely punt on OOC games and still end up with 19 high-major games, and almost certainly will end up with more quality wins.

There is nothing "egalitarian" about the system.
TXAggie2011
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Well, of A&M and Wichita State, which one was watching the other play as an "under-seeded" 10?
TXAggie2011
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Quote:

Parish and Norlander are of the same way of thinking as me. And both say it's coming. Just a matter of time.
I don't think its any secret the NCAA held meetings and is working on a system.
mdanyc03
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Quote:

History shows that Tubby knows what he is doing. He's made the dance at every stop which includes some pretty mediocre programs like Georgia, Minnesota and Texas Tech.
I don't think you realize what Tubby did.

Not only has he driven off 6 of his top 8 players. He demoted the father of a top 25 national recruit and a top 10 national recruit who is also the uncle of a top 10 national recruit. And all local Memphis guys. Oh and because his sons were playing for the Penny local AAU teams, he had full access to all local talent. And his wife coaches one of the local AAU teams.

AND, he did this to hire his son.

He is a good coach, but he is finished at Memphis. And for a selfish, nepotistic move.
Double Diamond
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That Kentucky team was pre season #1. I was fine with them as an 8. But that's a really talented 8 seed that just handed had a good year. Was totally stupid doing this to WSU.
_lefraud_
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If he doesn't have Memphis back in the ncaa within the next two seasons, I'll consider him done. But I'm gonna get behind the guy that has won at every single stop of his career over a guy who only had a job because he happened to have some talented sons.

Almost any coach would have "demoted" Lawson. After being an assistant for two years and his ties to his sons and other recruits, Lawson no longer needed to be tagged as an assistant per ncaa rules. And that "demotion" came with a $20,000 pay increase! Lawson was fortunate to have his job, he was even more fortunate to keep his job once Tubby was hired.

You might be right, and Tubby may not have success at Memphis, but it won't be because re refused to cater to some dad and his talented, but cancerous sons. Only time will tell.
mdanyc03
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http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/how-tubby-smith-made-a-gigantic-mess-of-memphis-program-in-just-one-year/

How Tubby Smith made a gigantic mess of Memphis' program in just one year

A year ago this week, after paying Josh Pastner $1.25 million to (please) take the Georgia Tech job, Memphis offered Tubby Smith a five-year, $15.45 million contract to coach its men's basketball team. He accepted. And what Smith then inherited was a program featuring four former top-100 recruits (Dedric Lawson, K.J. Lawson, Markel Crawford, Nick Marshall) and another top-100 prospect (Charlie Moore) signed to a national letter of intent.
Not bad.
But it's pretty bad now.
Marshall transferred to a junior college last offseason while Moore instead enrolled at California, where he averaged 12.2 points and 3.5 assists this season. Now Crawford and both Lawsons -- that's the Tigers' three leading scorers and rebounders -- have announced they're also transferring, meaning there are six Memphis players who have said they're transferring since the end of this season. Only two players (Jeremiah Martin and Jimario Rivers) are set to return. ......

Keelon Lawson swears Bowen told him he would remain on staff as a full-time assistant no matter who Memphis hired. But that didn't happen. Because Memphis hired Smith, who demoted Lawson to a made-up position called director of player development.
Publicly, Keelon Lawson said the right things.
Privately, he felt wronged.
Which led to Dedric and K.J. -- who combined to average 31.5 points, 18 rebounds and 6.1 assists this season -- last week announcing a transfer. Early Monday, they committed to Kansas . And when I asked Keelon Lawson on Monday if Dedric and K.J. would still be Tigers if he were still a full-time assistant, he answered, "Yes. Of course." In other words, Smith's decision to demote Keelon Lawson cost Memphis two players Kansas can't wait to use to win another Big 12 title. And do you know how many top-100 recruits Smith's three full-time assistants have committed? Zero. Not one. But they are scheduled to soon host a prospect who is currently committed to a Division II school. And I'm not even making that up.....

Bottom line, in less than a year on the job, Smith has lost four former top-100 prospects to the transfer market and added zero top-100 prospects to replace them. And he burned his most valuable bridge to the fertile Memphis recruiting base when he demoted Keelon Lawson -- who, in addition to being Dedric and K.J.'s dad, is also the father of a top-25 prospect in the Class of 2019, the father of a top-10 prospect in the Class of 2021 and the uncle of a top-10 prospect in the Class of 2021. If Keelon Lawson never did anything but secure commitments from prospects related to him, he would've eventually enrolled five top-55 national recruits, four of whom will likely go down as McDonald's All-Americans. Plus, because his younger sons play for Team Penny, a summer program based in Memphis, NCAA rules would not have forbidden Keelon Lawson from being in the gym for Team Penny practices and games during times when no other college assistant would've had access. This is what having Keelon Lawson on staff meant for Memphis. He would've enrolled his sons and could've enrolled his nephew all while providing an inroad to the rest of the local talent. Now, that's over. And Memphis will instead spend the next week trying to convince a player to pick the Tigers over Ouachita Baptist.....

Tubby Smith, to be clear, is a good coach and a good man who has taken five different schools to the NCAA Tournament. So it's not impossible to envision him eventually getting Memphis there, too -- in two or three years. But Memphis fans have never been much interested in enrolling three-star prospects and trying to be good. Memphis fans have forever supported a program that enrolls four-star and five-star prospects and tries to be great. And, with few exceptions, the historical key to doing that has been to recruit Memphis....
_lefraud_
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Ok?

I'm fully aware of what has happened at memphis. Lawson was making 100,000 under Pastner. Tubby took away the assistant tile but bumped him up to 120,000. If the dad (and family) want to be butt hurt over a "demotion" from a job he never earned in the first place, than so be it. Tubby has been around long enough to know how to run a program, and probably found it best to move on from daddy and his talented sons.

The last part of that article is really funny, talking about how "great" Memphis strives to be. Memphis hasn't been nothing in almost a decade when they lost their used car salesman of a coach to UK.
Double Diamond
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Parish is very clued in on Memphis. If he says Tubby screwed up. Tubby did. You don't go out of your way to remove your two best players and pipe line to more talent to bring in your son. And Tubby's son ain't bringing him top talent. Went from top 20 talent to division two level recruits. That seem like a good tradeoff? Parrish flat out said, what Tubby did at Tech won't cut it at Memphis. And Memphis fans won't be impressed by two star recruits like he was getting at Tech. Tubby had a built in access to five stars and didn't want that.

The Lawson situation is how basketball is played. Tubby is a stubborn old man that's seeing the game pass him by.
_lefraud_
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What's the difference between losing in the first round with high end talent and losing in the first round with average talent?

Memphis has had some big time recruiting classes since 2009 (Pastner) and haven't made it past the first weekend. They've been seeded 12, 8, 6, 8 during that time. Really impressive stuff, especially with all that high end talent.

It's funny though. The Lawson's got butt hurt because the father got "demoted" from a position he would have NEVER gotten without his sons, and was even given a $20,000 raise, to make room for the Head coaches son. Ironic.
mdanyc03
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Memphis has been to the final four with three different coaches
Double Diamond
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What is the point of talent? You really just said this! All Tubby had to do was placate Lawson. That's it and he would have his top three players and a pipe line to more. Sorry this wasn't just about a demotion. Tubby had been ignoring and flat out cutting the Lawson's out. And now Tubby comes out saying how important they were to Memphis, and how recruiting Memphis is so important. Well Tubby you just ended all of that.

This is how basketball works. Again you keep acting like Tubby removed Keland for some high end assistant. He didn't. He removed him for his son. Who was going to bring in more high end talent. Keland or S-Smith? Keland was actually a well thought of highly school coach. You're just arguing to argue. What Tubby did was sign his firing papers. Everyone sees it.
_lefraud_
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mdanyc03 said:

Memphis has been to the final four with three different coaches


How is that relevant? And by three you mean 1973, 1985*, 2008*, right?
Double Diamond
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Hey guys this is better. Top 20 talent or division two talent which is what Memphis is currently looking at brining in as they scramble after the mess Tubby created.

Actually according to Parrish they were cutting Lawson out. It was like a firing, hey you go stand in this corner because I don't want you here.

Why doesn't Memphis just shut the basketball program down! I mean they've never won jack with all this talent! That didn't work so hey, division two level talent has to work!

Come on man. You don't have any idea what you're saying.
_lefraud_
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What have they done with that talent Ben? Again, Tubby didn't fire the man, he didn't cut his pay, he didn't give him additional responsibilities.

Was dad seriously thinking of parlaying this gig into a head coaching position? If daddy Lawson is so vital to the city of Memphis, than the school can hire him back on when they fire Tubby in a couple of seasons.
mdanyc03
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_lefraud_ said:

mdanyc03 said:

Memphis has been to the final four with three different coaches


How is that relevant? And by three you mean 1973, 1985*, 2008*, right?
This has really become a dumb argument but anyway.

It is relevant because there is a pretty tried and true formula for success at Memphis. Recruit locally. Do that and you can compete at very high levels. And the Memphis fan base isn't necessarily all alumni. It is also local Memphis people who want to see the local kids represent Memphis.

You act as if basketball coaches are chess players all with the same board and same pieces. They aren't. What works at Minnesota and Texas Tech isn't necessarily the best formula for Memphis. The approach Tubby has taken at Memphis has been a disaster.

If he doesn't want to deal with Memphis people and the Memphis high school/ AAU scene, he shouldn't have taken the job. Because that is the approach that works there.
_lefraud_
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I didn't know all these players were from Memphis

Derrick Rose
Joey Dorsey
Robert Dozier
Chris Douglas-Roberts
Darius Washington
Tyreke Evans
Will Barton

It's been nearly a decade since Cal left, and the program is closer to where it was in the late 90s, than the 2000s...which is not very good.
Double Diamond
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According to Parrish Calipari is the only coach in his lifetime that could win at Memphis recording nationally. And Tubby ain't Calipari.

So you think the best way to rebuild the Memphis brand is to totally cut off a clear path to high end talent? Listen to what you're saying.
_lefraud_
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Listen to what I'm saying.

I don't think it's worth keeping a guy around who is butthurt, even though he's being compensated well above what he is actually qualified for. Maybe Calipari was the right guy for the right job, but if Memphis basketball has so much history and prestige, then surely they can overcome a high school basketball coach and his sons.

Tubby has won at Georgia, Minnesota, and Tech. He's also won a Kentucky and Tulsa. A good mix of basketball powers, and non-basketball powers. Memphis is somewhere in the middle, and until he fails, I'll give Tubby the benefit of the doubt on his way of doing things.
Double Diamond
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Lawson wasn't butt hurt till Tubby started treating him poorly from the jump. Instead of looking at this as an advantage, Tubby looked at it like a nuisance .

This has to be the craziest argument I've frankly ever walked into.
_lefraud_
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I'm sure you've stepped in to quite a few after a nights of drinking in your wingtips at Steak n' Shake.
Double Diamond
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I just don't think removing your top two players, and removing the opportunity for an in in three other top 50 recruits is worth not placating the father. Again so Tubbys son could come in. Parrish thinks it'll lead to his firing.
91AggieLawyer
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Quote:

Asks someone to prove a team would win a hypothetical game.

Is it the proof or hypothetical game you're concerned about here?

The underlying point in an argument that a team was screwed by giving them a higher seed is the idea that they would have won a hypothetical game had they been a lower seed. Otherwise what's the point? They got an 11 when they should have been an 8 or maybe a 5. OK, but if that's the case you have to change the teams around and you ASSUME they would have won that hypothetical game.

So it is OK to ASSUME they would have won the hypothetical game but its not OK to ask for someone to prove their assertion?

If you think asking that question is idiotic, well, whatever.
wacarnolds
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Asking someone to prove a team would win a hypothetical game is dumb.
Double Diamond
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I want teams to be seeded by how good they are, and to stop rewarding power teams for how many top 50 games they play.

Anybody that isn't blind can tell WSU would've been one of the three to five best teams in what ever power conference. Some how Vegas can put point spreads in using advanced numbers. Why shouldn't NCAA? Again this fact alone shows how stupid the NCAA system is. Dayton was a 7 point dog in a game by the committees seeding should've been favored.
bobinator
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Double Diamond said:

I want teams to be seeded by how good they are, and to stop rewarding power teams for how many top 50 games they play.
You know it's that "how good they are" bit that's ridiculously complicated and has no objective correct answer right?
greg.w.h
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I think the question that needs to be answered is:

How solely through the agency of the Men's basketball tournament can the NCAA fund the majority (90% of all revenue) of its operations in a time of likely declining media revenue coupled with more likely decline in ticket revenue??

The answer to that is the billion dollar question. While DD's commentary deals directly with perceived flaws in the selection process, the NCAA has to arrive at an answer that preserves a significant portion of the income.

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/031516/how-much-does-ncaa-make-march-madness.asp
Double Diamond
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Use something that wouldn't make a 7 and underdog by a lot to a 10.
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