Redshirts in basketball

2,264 Views | 28 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by Method Man
Kyle Field Shade Chaser
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how do they work? Same as football?

Have we burned smiths redshirt and BK just chooses to bench him? If that is the case, expect another PG to transfer.

Smith not getting minutes in Denver types of games might be BKs biggest headscratcher this season.

Side note...I'm not seeing any progress from villa. Good news is Trocha improving his 3 spot game at warp speed. He's done fine when asked to play 3.
phorizt
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Smith played yesterday. He's played in 6 games this year now.
bobinator
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Yes, technically they work the same but basically nobody worries about redshirts in basketball. Except Baylor, which has actually done a really good job in recent years of productively redshirting guys.

If you're not good enough in practice to get minutes then you just aren't good enough, and if you're not good enough to get minutes at guard on this team, there's no way you're going to be good enough to get minutes at guard on next year's team.
Kyle Field Shade Chaser
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What's puzzling to me is we could use a guy like smith THIS season. He's shown in games to be better than Collins, Eubanks, and Carlton. And for that matter, better than Hampton, save his Denver performance last night.

But Bob...I agree with you. Next season, smith, Collins, Carlton, will have no place on this team assuming all our guards get cleared to play academically.
Kyle Field Shade Chaser
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You're missing my point. He should be getting at minimum Collins minutes. Collins is a waste of space.
bobinator
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Obviously he either isn't as good as Collins in practice, or he isn't playing for some other reason. The coaches aren't blind.

I don't think Kennedy and company are the greatest coaches in the entire world, but I trust them enough that they wouldn't sit a guy on the bench who could make us better without a very good reason.
Pumpkinhead
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TST said:

You're missing my point. He should be getting at minimum Collins minutes. Collins is a waste of space.
When we don't know anything about what is going on behind the scenes, in terms of how the kid is doing in practices, whether he is doing what he is supposed to be doing in terms of going to class and taking care of academics, the conversations between him and the staff, etc....it is hard to form a 'qualified' opinion on this sort of thing.

I know this is a message board and fan opining is what message boards are for, and that is obviously fine. Sports fan message boards do what they do. But at the end of the day, we also have to realize that as fans we often have access to only a small percentage of the information. Generally, that information is limited to what we see during games at Reed or on the television screen. Occasionally, maybe some extra 'insider' scoop info is available, but that is the exception rather than the rule.

I can say, regarding this Caleb Smith/Collins/Chase Carlton thing etc., as a fan who reads a bunch and follows the team enthusiastically as a fan, I don't have much that has given me much insight on this. Other than I know that Chase hit is head really bad in that game vs. CSUN out in California, requiring stitches, and had a concussion apparently, and that is why you didn't see him play again in that tournament after that. Also, it seems obvious that Collins has earned the staff's trust to an extent, perhaps because of how he came in and did a serviceable job playing at the top of a zone in that Virginia Tech game.

I know that in general a coaching staff can often be pretty risk adverse when they go to the bench, in terms of leaning towards putting players out on the floor who they most 'trust' to play consistent fundamentally sound defense and not make careless turnovers on offense. Those characteristics can be more important to them than putting the player out there who has the most talent.

It *seems* like Collins generally does both those things. He played 36 minutes total vs. Virginia Tech, TAMU-CC, and Denver...and had only 1 turnover total in 36 minutes. He can't do much on offense, but he doesn't turn the ball over and he is generally trying to do the right thing defensively.

Against the really good teams, I'm not sure honestly whether this will matter much, if the UCLA game was any indication. The staff REALLY shortened their rotation in that game, basically playing 6 players: Gilder, Hogg, Davis, Williams, Trocha, Hampton. They had a few spot minutes for Vila whom I sense is the one they are most hoping to be able to really bring up to speed, but as of now, my sense is when we play Arizona, you'll probably the same thing happen again if a close game. Unless there is some serious foul trouble, we are going to play about 6 maybe 7 guys and that is it.
mdanyc03
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Quote:

Have we burned smiths redshirt and BK just chooses to bench him? If that is the case, expect another PG to transfer.
Really scratching my head about what point you are trying to make.

Are you suggesting that Caleb Smith will transfer because he didn't redshirt? If so, why? Do you think not redshirting Caleb Smith is some big problem because we will need him in 2021?

I like Caleb Smith and hope he has a nice career here. But if not, college basketball rosters are fluid. You only have so many minutes and so many shots to go around. Guys come in and guys go out every year.

Funny how almost every OKC fan I talked to was at peace with James Harden in Houston, but Aggie basketball fans get hung up for years on guys that transfer out.
mallen
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Reading between the lines from Kennedy's public statements, Collins does an exceptional job in practice of feeding the post and that is a big distinguishing factor in this year's offense. Plus doesn't Collins already have a year in BK's system?
mdanyc03
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Quote:

It *seems* like Collins generally does both those things. He played 36 minutes total vs. Virginia Tech, TAMU-CC, and Denver...and had only 1 turnover total in 36 minutes. He can't do much on offense, but he doesn't turn the ball over and he is generally trying to do the right thing defensively.

Against the really good teams, I'm not sure honestly whether this will matter much, if the UCLA game was any indication. The staff REALLY shortened their rotation in that game, basically playing 6 players: Gilder, Hogg, Davis, Williams, Trocha, Hampton. They had a few spot minutes for Vila whom I sense is the one they are most hoping to be able to really bring up to speed, but as of now, my sense is when we play Arizona, you'll probably the same thing happen again if a close game. Unless there is some serious foul trouble, we are going to play about 6 maybe 7 guys and that is it.
Nailed it.

Caleb Smith is "better" than Chris Collins. But Chris Collins isn't in there to be good. He is in there to not mess up. We don't really need the 9th-10th guy in the rotation to be good. If he is in the right spot on defense, doesn't turn it over, can feed the post, and we are only talking about 8 minutes or so a game, that is fine.
phorizt
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mallen said:

Reading between the lines from Kennedy's public statements, Collins does an exceptional job in practice of feeding the post and that is a big distinguishing factor in this year's offense. Plus doesn't Collins already have a year in BK's system?
Collins has been the worst distributor on the entire team. He has 2 assists in almost 60 minutes of playing time this year and the worst assist to turnover ratio on the team.

I guess he makes up for it by shooting 12% from 3.
bobinator
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Saying he has the worst assist-to-turnover ratio on the team is almost like saying Kobie Eubanks has the best assist-to-turnover ratio on the team. It might be technically true (which actually in this case it isn't, because Collins' 2:3 A/T is better than Tavario Miller's 1:2) but you're talking about very small numbers.

Point is, Caleb Smith either hasn't earned the playing time in practice, or maybe Collins is way better in practice than what we've seen in games, or there's another reason.
CapCityAg89
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I think the point is that if you're assessing the players on a "potential to be a good college guard" scale you get a very different answer than if you're assessing on a "can handle under 10 minutes of spot relief while not screwing up" scale.

Despite popular opinion, basketball IS a team sport and coaching is about managing the TEAM over 40 minutes and 35-40 games.
Kyle Field Shade Chaser
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Collins is a waste of space and waste critical developmental "in game" minutes for a guy like Caleb smith.

I agree with the point there could be issues behind the scenes that fans don't see.

assuming no unforeseen issues with smith, i cannot imagine BK watched the same games we watched early in he season where smith was clearly better than Hampton, Collins, stitches guy. how you don't try to develop this kid in games like Denver still blows my mind. his ceiling seems much higher than hamptons.

hopefully there is some other issue, but I guess it's hard to second guess a conference champion coach.
bobinator
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Hypothetically maybe player A doesn't practice hard, but player B does. Currently, player A is about a 5, and player B is about a 4 skill wise. But, if he puts in the work, the coach thinks player A could become a 7 or 8. However, if he continues his lazy approach to practice, he'll never be more than a 6.

The coach could think short term, and play the better player now, but neither of them are really good enough to make a huge difference on the court anyway, and rewarding him with minutes despite his bad practice habits could stunt his long term development as a player.

That's just a hypothetical off the top of my head that would explain why a worse player would play over a better player.

DISCLAIMER: I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS THE CASE WITH COLLINS/SMITH, JUST A HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE OF WHY A COACH MIGHT SIT A PLAYER THAT APPEARS TO BE BETTER THAN ONE PLAYING.
wacarnolds
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Team Start Playing Caleb More
GE
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What have Collins and Smith done in the games so far thay convinces you Smith is better at defending as part of the zone than Collins is?
Pumpkinhead
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I mentioned this in my previous post, but here were the minutes played vs. UCLA:

(Core Rotation)
Admon Gilder - 37 minutes
D.J. Hogg - 36 minutes
J.C. Hampton - 33 minutes
Tyler Davis - 27 minutes
Tonny Trocha - 30 minutes
Robert Williams - 23 minutes
(Spot Minutes)
Eric Vila - 9 minutes
Tavario Miller - 4 minutes
Chris Collins - 1 minute

---
I personally think any debate & concern about Collins/Smith/Carlton etc. is mostly a waste of time (even more of a time waster than the inherent normal trivial nature of sports talk ha ha).

When we play 'real' teams, the rotation is going to shorten and you'll almost certainly see the staff lean HEAVILY on the what I bolded above as the 'Core Rotation'.

And I think barring significant foul or injury problems, we'll see the minutes distribution often play out like the UCLA game iexcept for the two following trends that I think could very well gradually occur over the course of the season:

1) I think the staff will gradually start going to that 'Big' lineup more of Gilder/Hogg/Trocha/Davis/Williams and thus Williams minutes will eat a bit into Hampton's minutes.

2) I think the staff believes in Vila's talent and potential, and they will have an interest in trying to get him out there, and if he can gradually get more comfortable and do okay, I could see his minutes going up over time (with probably a guy like Hogg's going a bit down).

Does the staff maybe seem to trust Collins more than somebody like Smith right now to go in and play some spot minutes here and there. Sure looks like it at the moment. But I will be surprised if it is some regular event where any of those guys is getting double digits in a game. Our success this season will be FAR more reliant on how those 'Core Rotation' guys are playing.

And just a note on Vila. That guy literally just showed up in the United States in mid-August. No summer training with the team. Guy just showed up about 14 weeks ago and it is a different country and new school and different speed of game and FIBA vs. NCAA game rules and hell, I think even that FIBA ball he has been playing with all his life vs. the NCAA ball is even a little different with a bit different circumference and weight. Plus the dude like Trocha 2 years ago needs to get stronger and gain weight.

Would have it been great if the kid showed up playing great right out of the chute? Obviously. But he is not. Maybe his head is swimming still. Let's see if over time the kid improves. Anybody seemingly throwing in the towel on him already (hey Method Man!), you sure are running for the exit doors fast.

Method Man
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I'm not. I like Vila. His shot is really slow to develop and he's pretty unathletic. He is a good ball handler and passer for his size and has a decent feel for the game. He could be a good contributor for us. Right now he looks like a walkon.
bobinator
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The only problem there Pumpkin is when we get into the grind of SEC play, that's a lot of minutes for Gilder and Hogg to be playing every night.

I do agree that in big games we'll go with a really short bench, but we have to use these guys to eat up some minutes against some decent teams.
bobinator
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I disagree that he's unathletic, he moves pretty well for a guy his size. But like I posted on the other thread I think he's still getting used to how tall he actually is.
Pumpkinhead
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Method Man said:

I'm not. I like Vila. His shot is really slow to develop and he's pretty unathletic. He is a good ball handler and passer for his size and has a decent feel for the game. He could be a good contributor for us. Right now he looks like a walkon.
Totally agree that he doesn't seem to have any explosiveness in terms of jumping, as he gets more time with Darby that should improve a little just as Trocha's did, though he does move his feet actually pretty well from side to side. Really try to watch him next time out on the perimeter keeping a man in front of him. he is doing okay, and at 6'10"-6'11" with some good length he has some slack.

In terms of his shot, I haven't really seen a problem with the speed of it personally. And again, the guy is freaking 6'10" - 6'11". Have you seen him frequently seemed to get his shot really bothered or blocked? I don't recall too much of that. It seems a lot more like he just can't seem to hit the side of an ocean right now.
bobinator
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I actually do agree that his shot is slow, but at his height it shouldn't be a real problem.
Pumpkinhead
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bobinator said:

The only problem there Pumpkin is when we get into the grind of SEC play, that's a lot of minutes for Gilder and Hogg to be playing every night.

I do agree that in big games we'll go with a really short bench, but we have to use these guys to eat up some minutes against some decent teams.
I can agree with that. Let's see what the minutes distribution look like versus Arizona. Unless major foul trouble, I'm guessing they'll be pretty similar to UCLA.

Speaking of foul trouble...that does seem to be maybe a good thing about this team thus far. There doesn't seem to be a serious habitual problem (yet) with getting into foul trouble. Can you imagine if Gilder had the habit that Caruso often seemed to his first few years of gambling and picking up a bunch of ticky tack fouls?
LawHall88
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Pumpkinhead said:

Method Man said:

I'm not. I like Vila. His shot is really slow to develop and he's pretty unathletic. He is a good ball handler and passer for his size and has a decent feel for the game. He could be a good contributor for us. Right now he looks like a walkon.
Totally agree that he doesn't seem to have any explosiveness in terms of jumping, as he gets more time with Darby that should improve a little just as Trocha's did, though he does move his feet actually pretty well from side to side. Really try to watch him next time out on the perimeter keeping a man in front of him. he is doing okay, and at 6'10"-6'11" with some good length he has some slack.

In terms of his shot, I haven't really seen a problem with the speed of it personally. And again, the guy is freaking 6'10" - 6'11". Have you seen him frequently seemed to get his shot really bothered or blocked? I don't recall too much of that. It seems a lot more like he just can't seem to hit the side of an ocean right now.
We may be mixing our metaphors here.
bobinator
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It's good because we're not very deep, but I would like to see us a little more physical defensively
Pumpkinhead
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LawHall88 said:

Pumpkinhead said:

Method Man said:

I'm not. I like Vila. His shot is really slow to develop and he's pretty unathletic. He is a good ball handler and passer for his size and has a decent feel for the game. He could be a good contributor for us. Right now he looks like a walkon.
Totally agree that he doesn't seem to have any explosiveness in terms of jumping, as he gets more time with Darby that should improve a little just as Trocha's did, though he does move his feet actually pretty well from side to side. Really try to watch him next time out on the perimeter keeping a man in front of him. he is doing okay, and at 6'10"-6'11" with some good length he has some slack.

In terms of his shot, I haven't really seen a problem with the speed of it personally. And again, the guy is freaking 6'10" - 6'11". Have you seen him frequently seemed to get his shot really bothered or blocked? I don't recall too much of that. It seems a lot more like he just can't seem to hit the side of an ocean right now.
We may be mixing our metaphors here.
That I did, ha ha. Good catch! I guess as long as I was understood. Side. Of. Barn.
mdanyc03
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Quote:

Right now he looks like a walkon.
Method sometimes I read stuff you write and I can't tell if you are being serious or sarcastic, trolling or what. With all due respect and internet friendliness.

I watch Vila and say to myself "that guy is going to make millions of dollars playing basketball." You watch him and think he looks like a walk on.

I am not saying I am right and you are wrong. I am just truly amazed that we can watch the same thing and have such different opinions.
Method Man
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Sorry. You are projecting and I'm talking about current play. He doesn't dominate in scrub time against Denver and couldn't make millions now. I said I see the potential for
Future contribution but right now he's not giving you much. So, that isn't sarcasm or
Trolling. It's you misinterpreting what I'm saying.
Method Man
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bobinator said:

I actually do agree that his shot is slow, but at his height it shouldn't be a real problem.


It could be, though. Getting his shot blocked isn't the issue so much as someone contesting it and making it harder. He needs some klay Thompson workouts.
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