bularry said:

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JCA1 said:

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Winebid.com might be a good place to look. New auction every week and they typically have some old vintages.

Edit - just looked and there several 1959 first growths and some DRC available. But bring your wallet.

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I'm not sure how anyone can trust buying really old and expensive wines from auctions and general public. the counterfeit business didn't go away when Rudy got busted.

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Yeah, I suspect something that old won't be drinkable, just something really cool to have. But not for upwards of $2400.

Edit: Got fooled by a 4/1/21 article. Stupid ass day of the year.

To the guy looking for a 1959 wine, try Estate Wine Brokers out of Austin. They have access to nice cellars with age and good storage provenance. They set me up with a great 1966 Bordeaux earlier this year.

https://www.estatewinebrokers.com/

Thanks!

Inglenook 50% off today. Puts their Cab at $50 and Rubicon at $105.

https://www.inglenook.com/store/wines/rubicon

cecil77 said:

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Inglenook 50% off today. Puts their Cab at $50 and Rubicon at $105.

https://www.inglenook.com/store/wines/rubicon

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I'm loading up and bought of a case of the Rubicon to try last time they had 50% off. Rubicon is a great deal at $105 bottle!

Has anyone tried their Cab?

Yes, I get it at the 50% off as well. For $100 it's just sorta a "meh" Napa Cab. at $50 it's great!

Note, the cheapest shipping they offer on the site is FX 2day at $120 per case. If you ask they'll ship ground for much less.

Read through a Q&A that some of y'all may find interesting. Dripping Springs winery, some of the stuff is just about their operation, but there are some broader commentary bits on the Texas and Hill Country wine scene.

Texas Focus: Q&A with Nate Pruitt of Bell Springs Winery

Thanks for sharing. Good pub for the industry. And Dripping Springs has several wineries worth the trip, Bell Springs among them.

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And almost all of our wineries are 100% Texas fruit.

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I wish this were true, but it's just not. At least the tank trucks w/ CA plates on 290 would indicate otherwise. I think most do appellate "Texas" but until the State Legislature acts, that doesn't mean 100% Texas fruit.

The other nit to pick is not mention of Bordeaux grape varieties. They grow very well and are what the wine buying public wants. And there's no reason our wines (Sangio or otherwise) taste different from CA unless the humans choose it to.

cecil77 said:

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Thanks for sharing. Good pub for the industry. And Dripping Springs has several wineries worth the trip, Bell Springs among them.

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And almost all of our wineries are 100% Texas fruit.

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I wish this were true, but it's just not. At least the tank trucks w/ CA plates on 290 would indicate otherwise. I think most do appellate "Texas" but until the State Legislature acts, that doesn't mean 100% Texas fruit.

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The rule is 85% right now, correct?

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The other nit to pick is not mention of Bordeaux grape varieties. They grow very well and are what the wine buying public wants. And there's no reason our wines (Sangio or otherwise) taste different from CA unless the humans choose it to.

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I noticed that as well. And whether you subscribe to terroir or not, our wines are every bit as good as California's, just without the history and marketing. Even Texas folks are still of the mindset that Texas wines are minor compared to California. Books, podcasts, certification all either don't cover Texas at all or just barely. We haven't had any kind of Judgement of Paris moment to open everyone's eyes to what we have here.

I agree. I think part of it is "out of sight out of mind" with wine media.

Almost all Texas wine stays in state. NY and Virginia, etc. can pump out wine that can sell in a densely populated multi state area, one that likely has more wine writers, influencers, and press.

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The rule is 85% right now, correct?

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75% for a political boundary, e.g. state or county appellation

85% for an AVA

95% for vineyard specific

MooreTrucker said:

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cecil77 said:

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Thanks for sharing. Good pub for the industry. And Dripping Springs has several wineries worth the trip, Bell Springs among them.

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And almost all of our wineries are 100% Texas fruit.

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I wish this were true, but it's just not. At least the tank trucks w/ CA plates on 290 would indicate otherwise. I think most do appellate "Texas" but until the State Legislature acts, that doesn't mean 100% Texas fruit.

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The rule is 85% right now, correct?

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The other nit to pick is not mention of Bordeaux grape varieties. They grow very well and are what the wine buying public wants. And there's no reason our wines (Sangio or otherwise) taste different from CA unless the humans choose it to.

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I noticed that as well. And whether you subscribe to terroir or not, our wines are every bit as good as California's, just without the history and marketing. Even Texas folks are still of the mindset that Texas wines are minor compared to California. Books, podcasts, certification all either don't cover Texas at all or just barely. We haven't had any kind of Judgement of Paris moment to open everyone's eyes to what we have here.

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sorry, but our wines are not as good or as varied as Cali. Have a long way to go on the vineyard front. that's not shot at Texas, very skilled vintners have been at it in Cali for decades.

cecil77 said:

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The rule is 85% right now, correct?

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75% for a political boundary, e.g. state or county appellation

85% for an AVA

95% for vineyard specific

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thought it was 70% on the county level... glad it is at least 75%.

variety is 75%, too, right?

Yes.

And yes, CA wine is ahead of Texas. Not even a discussion, really. However, to be blunt (and biased) Dan Gatlin's wines are as good or better than CA wines at a given price point, from $60-ish to $200-ish. And there are some others, e.g. Ben Calais that could be in the discussion as well.

Texas vintners have to understand that there's a market for $100 wine (we had this discussion a few pages back). Until more of them aspire to that (not, literally a specific price, but "fine wine" at more than thirty bucks or so) and are willing to make the changes in both the vineyard and winery to accomplish that, nothing much will change.

you have to own the vineyards to push those boundaries..... far, far too few do Other than maybe Champagne, which is a different animal, what fine wines are not estate driven? some good cali pinot I can think of where the producer is buying fruit. But great and consistently "fine" wine is usually from the estate making the wine or in some rare instances, buying the same exact fruit every year from a nearby vineyard.

Excellent point. Here in Texas I think it's an even bigger issue, at least for a long period.

When a cotton farmer switches to grapes (higher price, lower water need) he has a hard time learning a crucial difference. In cotton you want yields as high as you can get. I grapes you want lower yields. Lots of high yield grapes in Texas producing poor wine.

And indeed, Dan's best wines come from the vineyard he farms.

I see your point on the farmer/yield, I would only add though that not all grape varieties benefit from a lower yield. Some varieties make great wine at higher yields.

Granted, they're not really Texas varieties that I know if so it's kind of nice to know but not as relevant to the Texas discussion. (Pinot Grigio, Sauvignon Blanc to my knowledge; likely more wines as well and I may be misremembering too)

White grapes don't rely on phenolics for their flavor as much as red grapes, and phenolic development is what yield impacts.

Varieties aren't tied to locations. Sure it may be easier/harder to grow good grapes in one place or another, but if the vine can be grown, good grapes can result. Whether or not it's profitable to do so is an entirely different discussion! Hence, there are really no "Texas varieties".

For red grapes, crop load is crucial. There will always be a point at which the grapes can't ripen properly if there are too many clusters on the vine. There may be a point at which lower yield doesn't increase phenolics, but I don't know that it's been found yet. Dan has gone down to two clusters per vine and the wine is incredible. Expensive, but incredible. I think economic viability is a bigger factor.

Napa's avg yield is about 3 T/ac, but in 2015 they were down 40-90 percent because of the heat and very early harvest - so fewer grapes on the vine allowed for full phenolic development in the shorter growing season. Texas will often have a shorter growing season, so we may be even more sensitive to appropriate crop loads. Phenolic development has been measured, and it' inversely proportional to crop load and mostly linear.

cecil77 said:

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Varieties aren't tied to locations. Sure it may be easier/harder to grow good grapes in one place or another, but if the vine can be grown, good grapes can result. Whether or not it's profitable to do so is an entirely different discussion! Hence, there are really no "Texas varieties".

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I was implying economic viability when I used the term of Texas varieties. After the economic viability is achieved, it lets you push the envelope to elevate the product.

Just as Sonoma and Napa are different, so are Texas and elsewhere. There of course is some overlap in the varieties, but different growing conditions dictate what grapes are really able to "flourish" for wine in a place. Would anyone come in and say that Pinot Noir wasn't an "Oregon variety?" Or that Chardonnay is broadly a "Sonoma variety?" Just because it grows fine in parts of Napa doesn't mean you can't tie it to the Sonoma location.

That all being said, I wish Texas winemakers would keep pushing the envelope on potential diamond in the rough foreign varieties that can flourish for winemaking in Texas. I have read some are, and hope to see more of it. It's a huge uphill battle to only push Texas Cabernet. That brings in competition nationally and internationally from wineries in places that have honed their cabernet grape growing and wine making down over a long time. Outside of novelty in-state purchases I think more money is going to be spent where it can "go further" in the consumer's eyes, at least for the time being without some kind of larger marketplace shift.

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hat all being said, I wish Texas winemakers would keep pushing the envelope on potential diamond in the rough foreign varieties that can flourish for winemaking in Texas.

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Opinions vary. I see this as the complete opposite of what we should do. The market doesn't want obscure Mediterranean varieties. Not only that but many of those (most, actually) are deficient on polyphenols because of genetic weakness. There's a reason they aren't popular in the market.

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It's a huge uphill battle to only push Texas Cabernet.

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This is a true statement. However 1) I don't know of anyone espousing "only" Cabernet. and 2) Just because a battle is difficult doesn't make it worth it. I have personally sold quite a bit of $100+ Texas Cabernet to out of state buyers, including a fair number from CA.

The market wants good wine. If we limit it to DTC, which is all that really matters in the development of Texas fine wine (and increasingly most fine wine) it's particularly about wine quality. Many wine aficionados love the "look what I found" mindset to share with their wine friends. Texas can shine here.

I can't tell you the number of wine people I've served that are miffed they didn't know about us. We've had lots of people in the past few months who had to cancel Napa trips and came to Texas instead. They didn't expect the quality they found (at least at Inwood) and spent lots of money buying it. It's just frustrating that it's a "surprise" for them. I wish we had a dozen winerys selling great Napa quality wine and Napa prices. We could go quite a ways in that "uphill battle".

Here's an interesting metric. Our 2017 Magellan, a Bordeaux blend in a Pauillac style, retails at $99.50. It is our number one seller by bottle count. Texas can do it if Texas chooses to.

Good input cecil and others.

Another couple of things I mulled over:

• Agreed on DTC being key, but I would also add in on premise. Getting placements in high end restaurants where the service staff can relay the story of a particular wine, winery, or the general Texas wine scene in general would be a great additional step in the right direction.
• I highly agree about the wine aficionado type and what they look for. A lot of sommeliers feel the need to be niche in a certain category or varietal to help differentiate themselves. You'll hear about them specializing in everything from Mexican wine to small lot independent producers in Rhone and everything in between. Get some up and coming sommelier(s) to carry the baton and I think that could really help bolster more national attention.
• Texas has a couple of things going for it in this regard. One, it can differentiate just because of the novelty and being a new region. Two, it can differentiate on varietals. Some consumers will actually be attracted to a small production cab from Texas that their friends or group are unaware of. Others though may be more attracted to Texas when there is a variety that the state can do really well shines and isn't being clouded by the behemoth that is California domestically. Tempranillo, for example, seems to be the best option here in my opinion. And I think that many are already tying Tempranillo to Texas.
• The reason I think that some other random varieties could do well kind of intertwines with HTownAg98's point: Just not enough supply. If Texas wine could grow certain grapes and achieve a great wine at higher yields, that might just help as well, rather than the cost of being highly involved in the vineyard to produce low yielding but great wine. As long as demand outstrips supply in state, the Texas wine industry won't be able to really show as strongly on the national scene. Problem is, there are a lot of people in Texas and it's a huge state where most businesses may not ever need to consider selling outside of the border.
• Maybe there can be some kind of watershed moment for Texas wine, will be interesting to see if that happens! People cancelling Napa trips and rerouting to Texas may spur some demand, but California is opening more day by day and wine country is pretty much back at it.

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The big problem right now in Texas is that demand for grapes is far outstripping supply, so there's little to no incentive to grow at lower yields and make better wine. If you own the vineyard, that can change that dynamic a lot. People like Dan and Ben are stuck paying that higher price for that lower yield, because some other schmuck is willing to pay them the same equivalent price per acre to grow the grapes at 8 tons/acre and slap a Texas label on a mediocre bottle of wine.

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Yes, but there have been years where a bunch of those crappy grapes don't sell, either. And also yes, Dan's very best wines come from the vineyard where he is the grower.

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People are willing to pay premium prices for mediocre or even sub mediocre product just because it has Texas on the label.

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Frustratingly true. The big boys (you know who they are) are blocking using "Texas" on the label w/ integrity, i.e. 100% Texas grapes. They complain of too much wine in the pipeline, etc. When you tell them "you can still sell that wine, just put "American" on the label" - they balk saying they want Texas on the label, meaning they know it has value. So it begs the question why not make the Texas Appellation real? Heck, it would be nice to not see CA wine tanker trucks on 290.

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Agreed on DTC being key, but I would also emphasize on premise

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Agree, most DTC that's not on premise began as on premise.

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Getting placements in high end restaurants where the service staff can relay the story of a particular wine, winery, or the general Texas wine scene in general would be a great additional step in the right direction.

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Ten years ago Inwood was in most of the top restaurants in the state. However, given the very small margins coupled with the amount of attention they demand and subscription sales taking up the bulk of production (a good place to be) we've de-emphasized it. Maybe a dozen restaurants around they state can still get Dan's wines - and it does do well in them. Had a somm from one of them in just last week, and as you indicated, he's an enthusiastic supporter.


Kalasi is pushing Teraldego as their grape variety. It's pretty good, and will be fun to watch. That being said, if you can produce $100+ Cabernet and Bordeaux wines - do that. I get the theory of different grapes, but to me it adds an additional layer of marketing, i.e getting the consumer to notice and then convincing them it's a good grape and then convincing them your version is great. With established varieties there's already an established level of quality, and if you can meet that level you just have to get the consumer to try it.

Fun stuff - even having a few people interested enough to discuss it is great. And I don't think Texas can approach CA, or even Washington, really.

htxag09 said:

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HTownAg98 said:

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The big problem right now in Texas is that demand for grapes is far outstripping supply, so there's little to no incentive to grow at lower yields and make better wine. If you own the vineyard, that can change that dynamic a lot. People like Dan and Ben are stuck paying that higher price for that lower yield, because some other schmuck is willing to pay them the same equivalent price per acre to grow the grapes at 8 tons/acre and slap a Texas label on a mediocre bottle of wine. Until there's enough acreage under vine to increase supply or people stop buying bad wine (which I don't see happening, because Texas damnit), it's going to be hard to make Texas a world class wine producer.

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I was just making this comment with some friends when we were talking about Texas whiskey. People are willing to pay premium prices for mediocre or even sub mediocre product just because it has Texas on the label.

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yep... some similarities in the markets

cecil77 said:

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Kalasi is pushing Teraldego as their grape variety. It's pretty good, and will be fun to watch. That being said, if you can produce $100+ Cabernet and Bordeaux wines - do that. I get the theory of different grapes, but to me it adds an additional layer of marketing, i.e getting the consumer to notice and then convincing them it's a good grape and then convincing them your version is great. With established varieties there's already an established level of quality, and if you can meet that level you just have to get the consumer to try it.

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This probably makes sense if you're trying to stay in business, but I can't think of many things less exciting in the world of wine than more expensive and uninteresting cabs on the market. Put me in the camp of wanting to see Texas producers figure out how to do interesting things and make world class wines with old world varietals. I know that Texas producers have had success with Tempranillo (I have a handful of Inwoods in our wine fridge), but I'd love to see more Grenache given we have long, hot summers like they do in Priorat.

Don't overlook "staying in business' - it's kinda job #1!

It's really hard to make good Grenache, it's just a weak grape.

Agree in uninteresting cabs, but if you don't follow the Napa overripe over-oaked model - great cab is still great! And the world needs as much of it as it can get. They don't have to be identical. And the market appreciates and buys it. Try the 2017 Magellan Bordeaux blend. Hardly "uninteresting". Once you don't rely on new oak masking everything - it's amazing just how good Cab and Cab blends can be and just how different they can be depending upon the clones used.

I agree on old world varieties, but they need to be good ones. Cab Franc makes a superb varietal wine, and if not over ripened can be as interesting as you want. Same with Petite Verdot. Inwood released it's first varietal PV this year - 2017 vintage - it promptly sold out and there will be more coming. The first new Colus is being bottle soon, 2017 vintage. A micro yield Tempranillo, this is the second vintage since 2011. And the 2020 Tempranillo may be "the best Tempranillo yet".

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If it's just being over cropped, I wonder what it could be like if the yield was controlled.

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"thin" "diluted" "lackin color" etc - all hallmarks of overcropped fruit. Even more when the grapes are at a phenolic disadvantage genitically.

Agree. Part of the problem may be that if you're goal is to make the viticulture easier (e.g late to bud) you may not be of a mind to do the hard work to produce lower yield fruit.

And note that late to bud is not necessarily a good thing, as it can mean "later to ripen" as well. This week notwithstanding, rain at harvest is a bigger hazard than late spring frost. So a grape that ripens early (e.g. Tempranillo, "temprano" means "early" in Spanish) is a big advantage.

We cancelled our William Chris club membership, because I got tired of getting what felt like mostly not very good Mourvedre in our shipments.

Funny, that's what I was referring to without saying it. They've come out with some gsm blends lately that are much better now.

there are some tasty and interesting Mourvedre wines coming out of Sierra Foothills for those interested in that type of wine. also Sandlands does a version or two from old vineyard sites. quality for $40 and less.

(not to detail from the Texas topic)