Food & Spirits
Sponsored by

******************* BOURBON *******************

4,749,051 Views | 37531 Replies | Last: 1 hr ago by Aggie Therapist
steve00
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
That seems like a long time to age something, but I guess I've never tried to do straight whiskey. What does it taste like? Is aging 12 for a year similar to a 21? Or is it a whole different taste?
joshwayne330
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
quote:
quote:
For drinking purposes, If there was a bottle of PVW23 and OWA '04 on the table, I would reach for the OWA all day long. There is a reason why the juice in a PVW23 made it to that bottle - it got passed over multiple times because it didn't make that cut for their other bottling's and they had to do something with it - True story.

And I stand behind my claim that no bottle of bourbon is worth $150 from a blind tasting drinking standpoint when comparing it to other bourbons 1/3 of the price. If you have never done a blind tasting, you should try it sometime. It might open your eyes...


I agree.

Thought it is noteworthy that you had absolutely nothing good to say about the article posted that more or less did that very thing and rated PV15 and 1836 so high.


I thought that too

Bottom line : drink what you want. I picked up another barrel strength Four Roses today OESV - 126 proof, it is Excellent and only 50 bucks


I have suggested this before here. FR Private selections are the hidden gem of the bourbon world. Nice Pickup! I have 6 coming in from a group pick next month and more excited about these than a PVW15 sitting on a shelf
joshwayne330
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
quote:
Steve00,

I always speak for myself. I am not speaking for anyone else when I make my comments. I could care less of people over pay for whiskey. Just giving my opinion to help out the newbies.


I'm not sure that taking the contrarian view that PVW isn't good is helping newbies. I don't think it is the greatest whiskey ever, but I agree with the overwhelming majority of experts that it is in the top tier of bourbons. Any person who enjoys whiskey should aspire to at least try a glass at some point.

Maybe you actually think OWA tastes better, and that is great for you, but your constant references to price seems to suggest a different reason that you prefer OWA.

You may not mind if people overpay for bourbon, but by creating that definition based on your bourbon budget, you prove that you do care. It isn't possible to overpay for bourbon as long as the purchase satisfies the person making that purchase. If I like a whiskey that costs more than the whiskey you like, and I find it to taste good, and I can afford it, then I haven't overpaid. I have paid the right amount.


Steve00,

Save your speeches if you are directing them at me. Frankly, it doesn't make sense and you are obviously a newbie by some of your comments. What "experts" are you referring to? And I would 100% encourage people to try a pour at a bar.

Great bourbon is great bourbon regardless of the price. You just have to know when not to buy into marketing and hype.

I think my points have just flown over your head and that's okay.

[This message has been edited by Joshwayne330 (edited 7/15/2014 7:12a).]

[This message has been edited by Joshwayne330 (edited 7/15/2014 7:18a).]
wadd96
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Drink what you like, pay what you think it's worth. If you enjoyed it, I'd say it's worth your money.

For example, I don't see enough difference between MM and MM46 to justify any extra cost... but some may. I will never chastise someone for drinking what they want.

P.S. I enjoyed the hell out of my PVW20 that I drank with the gents before my wedding.

"It's not revenge... It's the reckoning... - Marcus Luttrell, USN Retired.
schmellba99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
quote:
That seems like a long time to age something, but I guess I've never tried to do straight whiskey. What does it taste like? Is aging 12 for a year similar to a 21? Or is it a whole different taste?


This is the longest I've ever aged a bourbon - usually I stick to about 3 months or so.

It's a completely different taste than 21, though admittedly I've not cracked my bottle of 21 to sample them side by side and am going of memory. 21 is still a hell of a lot smoother (but it's also one of, if not the, smoothest bourbons I've ever had come across my palate).

But I think it's a little more complex and maybe a touch spicier than regular EC12 as well.

Lately my kick has been bourbon on the rocks, so it's a bit difficult for me to really make solid comparisons. I suppose I should do a couple of neat pours of each side by side to see what the real differences are, but honestly that's not something that really blows my skirt up - if it tastes good, it tastes good. And my biased opinion is that it tastes really friggin good - much like my barrel aged vatting of Weller 12 and Weller 107 does too.
FlyFish95
How long do you want to ignore this user?
As a side note to the conversation, it's important to keep in mind that age doesn't always equal quality. There's kind of a tipping point with bourbon (for my taste it's about 10 years or so) where before that it's not deep enough and later than that it tends to get a little flat and often too oaky. However, there are some REALLY good bourbons that are over 10 years old.

It's expensive to let something sit around in a barrel that long without going to market and those older bourbons are less numerous in supply, so those two factors combined are often what makes the more expensive. Unfortunately for most of us, we innately think price often connotes a certain level of quality.
Ducks4brkfast
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
"those two factors combined are often what makes the more expensive"

that, and those greedy little angels.
AggieChemist
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
^ drunk little ****s
joshwayne330
How long do you want to ignore this user?
From my experiences, 8-12 years has proven to be the sweet spot. Anything after that, you need an "expert" taster to pick the honey barrels...
joshwayne330
How long do you want to ignore this user?
From my experiences, 8-12 years has proven to be the sweet spot. Anything after that, you need an "expert" taster to pick the honey barrels...
the dude10
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Did I start all this? Next I will mention garrison bros!

I think everyone has made some good points. Pappy may not blind taste test out higher than some of my other favorites, but out of curiosity I am going to try it at some point. I actually am more eager to find some of these rarer four roses products, as they produce my favorite cheap bourbon.

As far as the angels envy, the bottle I got is just nothing special to my palate. It's not bad but there is nothing that makes me reach for that bottle when I go into the pantry.
the dude10
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Also, speaking if my pantry, it is running out of room. The ~30 bottles of whiskey are making it hard on our groceries. Does anybody have a suggestion for somewhere to find a nice liquor cabinet?
tx4guns
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
http://www.bluegrassbourbondisplay.com/
Ol Jock 99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Not meaning to start a firestorm, but what's the purpose of the mini barrels? Just to look cool (I agree...they do)? Suck water out of the bourbon which will make it stronger (a guess)?

Bourbon is aged over YEARS in the varied climate of Kentucky (I'm a purist), so I highly doubt that 3 months in your 70 degree house is going to change things at all (except the sucking water out part...if that even happens).

They do look cool though.
steve00
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
schmellba99 can tell you more about barrel aging whiskey, as I have thus far stuck to cocktails.

You do have a much higher ratio of surface area to liquid in a small barrel vs a full size one, so it does age at a much faster rate. For a 2 liter barrel, you probably age roughly a year for each month it sits in the barrel. I keep my barrels out on the porch, in the hope that temperature and humidity swings will help further the aging process.

For cocktails, aging in the barrel gives the ingredients time to meld together better and it gives the drink a smoky component. If you age different cocktails in succession, you also get a little overlap, where the first one imparts a small amount of flavor into the second, creating a uniquely interesting (or crappy) cocktail. The most important part though, is that I end up with bottles of my favorite cocktails that are extremely easy to pour when I want one.
Atty_Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Here's a tip for the young marrieds:

Don't keep your bourbon neatly stacked in order and pretty on display. It makes an easy target for scrutiny. Keep them in a hodgepodge of disorganized bottles all jumbled up in a cabinet. This way, when you bring home another couple of bottles because the store was having a sale, the wife will not be able to tell a new one (or three) has been added. To her, it's just a jumble of bottles that never really seems to change as one is emptied and replaced.

I use the same tactic that I learned from George Costanza regarding my desk. If it looks like a mess, people will always assume you are busy and leave you the hell alone. (to enjoy some bourbon).
JobSecurity
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
quote:
Here's a tip for the young marrieds:

Don't keep your bourbon neatly stacked in order and pretty on display. It makes an easy target for scrutiny. Keep them in a hodgepodge of disorganized bottles all jumbled up in a cabinet. This way, when you bring home another couple of bottles because the store was having a sale, the wife will not be able to tell a new one (or three) has been added. To her, it's just a jumble of bottles that never really seems to change as one is emptied and replaced.

I use the same tactic that I learned from George Costanza regarding my desk. If it looks like a mess, people will always assume you are busy and leave you the hell alone. (to enjoy some bourbon).


It's genius. But she's going to notice when I stop displaying them now
Quantum ace
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
quote:
Whiskey related because I think it will add a very interesting flavor to my next batch of Sazerac or Old Fashioned that ages after it.


Do you add the sugar/simple syrup to the barrel to age as well? For the Sazerac, are you aging it with the absinthe/herbsaint, or adding that when you serve?

quote:
Bourbon is aged over YEARS in the varied climate of Kentucky (I'm a purist), so I highly doubt that 3 months in your 70 degree house is going to change things at all (except the sucking water out part...if that even happens).


It does make a noticeable difference in as little as a couple weeks. I got too much wood and char in my first couple batches, but it seems to be aging a little more smoothly after being broken in. Right now I have it filled with Old Charter 8, and it has gone from bland to decent in about a month. My plan is to use it for cocktails, but I just wanted to play around with it a bit first.
Ducks4brkfast
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
"Also, speaking if my pantry, it is running out of room."

That's what the top of your kiddos' bedroom closets are for.
joshwayne330
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Hide them in the back of a spare bedroom closet until they are needed. This way when your wife's friends and family come over the first word that pops in their head won't be alcoholic.
steve00
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
quote:
quote:
Whiskey related because I think it will add a very interesting flavor to my next batch of Sazerac or Old Fashioned that ages after it.


Do you add the sugar/simple syrup to the barrel to age as well? For the Sazerac, are you aging it with the absinthe/herbsaint, or adding that when you serve?


For the Sazerac, I added the Rye, Bitters and Simple Syrup to age. I don't believe in Absinthe as an added taste ingredient to a Sazerac, so I have an atomizer and spray it into the glass before pouring, but just for the aroma. Then I stir the drink with ice in a separate glass to cool it and impart some water, then strain into the rocks glass and flame a lemon peel.

I used Rittenhouse Rye for the first batch, as it performs very well in cocktails, and I liked the $20 price point since I needed 7 bottles. Since it turned out great, I'm upping the ante on the next batch and using Stagg Jr to create a modified Staggerac.

[This message has been edited by steve00 (edited 7/15/2014 12:11p).]
AggieChemist
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I do not have any bottles tucked away in the gun safe awaiting a spot in my cabinet. Nope. What gave you that idea?

[This message has been edited by Aggiechemist (edited 7/15/2014 12:35p).]
schmellba99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
quote:
Not meaning to start a firestorm, but what's the purpose of the mini barrels? Just to look cool (I agree...they do)? Suck water out of the bourbon which will make it stronger (a guess)?

Bourbon is aged over YEARS in the varied climate of Kentucky (I'm a purist), so I highly doubt that 3 months in your 70 degree house is going to change things at all (except the sucking water out part...if that even happens).

They do look cool though.


There are multiple levels of physics and chemistry at play when aging any spirit in a barrel - and age is just a numerical value.

A small barrel will do the following:

- Age a spirit faster due to a more even ratio of surface area of the barrel to the volume of hte liquid. Basically you get more contact time than you will in a normal 53 gallon barrel at a production facility. Keep in mind that it's not the same type of aging though - the chemistry has some of the same components, some completely different components.

- Will mellow out a cheaper/younger bourbon or whiskey in a relativeley short amount of time. It will also generally add some characteristics to the bourbon (color, oak, sugar, spice, etc.) that were not there prior to the additional aging.

Here is my first aging - run of the mill Maker's Mark. I aged it in a 2 liter barrel for 3 months, alternating between having the barrel sit on a shelf in my garage and in a drawer in my fridge for 2 week durations. The last 2 weeks I let it sit on the counter in the kitchen.

Left side is straight out of the bottle Makers. Right side is aged 3 months:





As far as flavor, Maker's is marginally a bourbon you can drink over the rocks. To me anyway. It's more of a mixing bourbon because it's young and not complex and barely meets the requirements to be called bourbon - and that's the way it's designed.

The aged Makers had a really noticeable oak flavor on the front end, but it dissipated quickly. It was a lot spicier, but had a surprisingly smooth finish to it. I actually really enjoyed it.

What a small barrel won't do:

- It won't take a Weller 12 and turn it into a Pappy 15 or Pappy 20.

- It won't take a white lightening type of corn whiskey and turn it into a fine sipping bourbon, even if you let it age in a barrel for a long time.

- I won't take a crappy whiskey and turn it into a great whiskey. It will turn it into a good whiskey, but that's it.

I bought the barrels because it's fun to see what varying age experiments can do with relatively cheap bourbons. Each batch i've done I have modified what I do with aging to some degree, but generally try to stick with a cycle of 2-4 weeks in a hot environment (I use my garage) to simulate summer, 2-4 weeks in a cold environment (I use my fridge) to simulate winter, and have added a 2-4 week cycle of sitting on the counter in the house somewhere to sort of simulate a spring type environment. The last barrel I aged I let it sit for about 3 days on the counter between hot and cold as well. Whether that made a bit of difference or not I will never know. I mostly wanted to keep from putting a heat sink that was full of 2.5 liters of 110 degree liquid directly in the fridge.

Bottom line - it's fun, and makes a difference in the flavor of some bourbons.
AggieChemist
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Please explain your statement regarding similar chemistry/different compounds.

Also, in an aging warehouse the casks will see 60-80 degree swings in temp in Ky every day. Very different from a static temp change every few weeks.
schmellba99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I don't know all of the ins and outs of the chemistry - and make no claim that I do; only what I've read:

Aging is a combination of interaction with the wood, sugars and tannins within the wood, interactions with about a million different things within the whiskey and barrel, etc.

Time & exposure do different things - you get more exposure to the surface of the wood with a small barrel, but less time of interaction with tannins and sugars. So it's a different type of aging. If it were the same, you could bet that every single manufacturer would use small barrels to speed up the aging process and get their product out of the rick house and on the shelves faster.

Temperature has more to do with the opening and closing of the pores in the wood and forcing the juice in and out, which allows contact time and reactions with sugars, tannins, etc. than it does with anything else.

Yes, you get more variation in temperatures in KY than you will anywhere in TX. But the physical nature of a small barrel with thin staves versus a large barrel with thick staves is also pretty different in terms of expansion and contraction - you don't need the huge swings in temps to force movement in the smaller, more flexible barrels than you do with the larger and more rigid barrels.

I have no science behind my fun experiments - other than letting a barrel sit in a static position and temperature is going to provide minimal benefits because generally in such situations materials tend to become static - there won't be much dynamic movement of the wood or the juice when the barrel sits on a kitchen counter at 72 degrees 24/7.

But my garage gets probably a 40 to 45 degree swing in temps between the 70's cool of night and the 100+ temps on the top of my storage shelves daily. That provides a lot of dynamic movement. I put it in the fridge periodically because I want the wood to shrink up as much as I would think it would do in a cold winter in KY on a larger barrel - that forces the juice out of the wood. When the barrel is in a warmer environment, the wood opens back up and you get more interaction between the oak and the juice.

It may well be all for naught, but my common sense says that at least providing some imitation of seasons will do a better job aging - and do it more like a large barrel would see in a rick house - than sitting in a static position and temperature with very little physical movement, which limits the chemical reactions as a result and ultimately limits the actual aging that you want to take place.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
schmellba99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
quote:
Also, in an aging warehouse the casks will see 60-80 degree swings in temp in Ky every day. Very different from a static temp change every few weeks.


Pretty much across the entire calendar year, the average delta between low and high in Louisville, KY is right around 20 degrees.

I'd argue that the biggest felt difference would be in the spring and fall months where the temperature swing is from the mid 70's for a high to the high 40's for a low.

Not quite as dramatic as 50 to 80 degrees. I'm sure in the varying levels of the rick houses you can get some significant temperature differences due to thermal variations though, so it's definitely not an across the board linear deal.
AggieChemist
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I was referring to the warehouses, obviously. They may be 120 during the day and 70 at night.
FlyFish95
How long do you want to ignore this user?
So what happens if you take Makers and leave it in a 1 liter barrel for 5 years?
joshwayne330
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
So what happens if you take Makers and leave it in a 1 liter barrel for 5 years?


It turns into an oak tree (assuming there is any bourbon left in the barrel).
schmellba99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Couldn't tell you Dryfly - there may not be enough to have more than a shot or two after 5 years though.

I would expect that, much like with larger barrels, there has to be some point of diminishing returns - whether that be that evaporation rates increase the loss (you are talking about a relatively small volume, after all, on most small barrels), that there is no increase in flavor or quality or that there is a degradation in flavor or quality.

Like you (or whomever) said above - simply aging longer does not necessarily equate to better or higher quality. There is an art to aging for long periods of time - and it's a huge gamble (well, not in small barrels I suppose) with having a product that is not as good as a product with less time investment.

I have thought about taking my small 2 liter barrel and putting some straight white lightening in it and sticking it in the barn for a year or so, just to see what happens.
wadd96
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
AC... why don't YOU explain the chemistry? ;-)

"It's not revenge... It's the reckoning... - Marcus Luttrell, USN Retired.
Ol Jock 99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
^^
I'd be interested in learning more.

99, have any good links for me to read up on this?
schmellba99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Here is a good article that goes into way better detail than Ibam capable of and talks about both positive and negative aspects.

This article is really more centered around aging from birth to finish over using a small barrel to modify the characteristics of an already aged juice, but it still explains a lot.

http://whiskeyreviewer.com/2012/09/small-barrel-aging-101/
FriedTex
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I'd love to hear what you thought was the best low price bourbon for this small barrel transformation
schmellba99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I have done the following:

Makers Mark, 3 months
Weller 12, 4 months
Weller Reserve/Weller 12 (60/40 vatting), 4 months
Elijah Craig 12 year, 6 months

I have two barrels - a 2 liter and a 3 liter.

So far the biggest difference in flavor profile to me has been with the Makers. I personally think that is a result of the combination of a new barrel and a young bourbon that benefitted immensely from some additonal aging.

The Weller 12 had some more subtle changes, mostly (to me) coming out a lot smoother than before it went in the barrel. There was a hint more oak profile, but not terribly noticeable. A little more vanilla finish i think as well. But admittedly, i dont drink a lot of Weller to begin with and have limited experience with it as it is.

The vatted combo is just plain good. The meshing of the two flavors (i had intended to use OWA and Weller 12 and to the poor man pappy vatting, but screwed up on my purchase) combined with the aging and mellowing in the oak has produced a very smooth and easy drinking bourbon. It is not going to blow your skirt up with spice or kick; it is just a great easy pour.

The Elijah Craig is growing on me - quite fast of late to be honest. I will admit that i was a touch disappointed when I first tapped the barrel - especially after a 6 or so month sit. But after my second pour, i started to really like it. EC12 is one of my favorites as it is and i was honestly a little worried about ruining it. The aged juice knocks down the initial bite of EC12 just a smidge, increases the oak enoughbto be noticed but nowhere close to being overpowering (subtle i would say is the right word) and to me has a very unique finish that i like, but cannot really describe (maybe a slight tobacco and cinammon finish? Hell i dont know).

(I just had a pour of production EC12 against a barrel aged - both neat pours at room temp that i let breathe for about 3-4 mins).

Like i said - to me it is a lot of fun and increases my enjoymentnof bourbon. Lets me experiment with some things and taste the fruits of my efforts, and every batch is different. I have no visions of grandeur, nor do i claim these things to be miracle workers on bad bourbon. It is strictly fun.

I also dont think i will go much over 3 or 4 months on any aging again in the future. 6 months didnt produce a mystical juice and i dont think anything longer would be to much, if any, benefit (not counting if i ever do a moonshine type age, but i wi probably sample something like that more regularly).

[This message has been edited by schmellba99 (edited 7/15/2014 9:37p).]
First Page Last Page
Page 75 of 1073
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.