Agreed on the separate thread for people posting bottles or seeking bottles.

FTAco07 said:

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I will never understand the "secondary market is evil" people. Of course I wish I could get stuff I want at retail, but lots of bourbons are a scarce resource and the only way to allocate that properly is by price. I don't understand why all the high demand bottles keep such an artificially low MSRP, but if they raised it to close to secondary would it still be offensive is someone paid Total Wine $550 for WLW instead of an individual?

I would love to have a separate thread just for people looking to buy/sell/trade at whatever price makes a market and keep this one as a discussion thread.

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There's also a newly created Facebook page. Some trading has taken place.

mazag08 said:

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John Francis Donaghy said:

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Quote:

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but if they raised it to close to secondary would it still be offensive is someone paid Total Wine $550 for WLW instead of an individual?

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Nope. That's exactly what I'm hoping will happen. But I don't want to pay Total Wine more, I want to pay the distiller more. If you can make a bourbon people think is worth $1,000, by God slap a $1,000 MSRP price tag on the thing when you send it to market and get the money you earned for it. Use the money to continue expanding/improving your operation, pay more to the people who made the stuff, and kick a few bucks back to the investors whose stock purchases made it all possible in the first place.

Instead we have all the skill, hard work, investment, and value add the distiller put in going unrewarded, while a bunch of yahoos with too much free time on their hands line up outside retailer doors to pocket that premium for themselves, just by virtue of not having to be at work when the bottles hit the shelves. That's the part that irks me about what the secondary market has become.

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This. Let the distillery profit off of supply and demand. If people still want to pay secondary prices after the initial purchase, then that's fine.

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You guys are crazy. The distillery is doing everything they can to maximize profits. I promise.
If they jacked up the price bottles would sit on the shelf and people would call them turds. People would move on to the next hard to come by bottle. It is more profitable for them to keep up demand.

Do you use your specs key card number when you check out? Do you request specific allocated bottles?

Some specs still use that system where you need to tell them what you want and when they get it they call the people who have requested it in order of specs key card points.

I have one and use it, but I've never benefitted from it.

Gunner33 said:

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I have one and use it, but I've never benefitted from it.

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This. My guy at specs said it's only actually used at some stores. Not even sure how that actually works.

Yes and it is ok. If you are local to Houston I can share a sample with you .

Found Elmer yesterday at a liquor store and owner wanted $250. In February I was in Wyoming and the store wanted $375 as I recall. I didn't purchase either.

CactusThomas said:

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Do you use your specs key card number when you check out? Do you request specific allocated bottles?

Some specs still use that system where you need to tell them what you want and when they get it they call the people who have requested it in order of specs key card points.

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Yeah I try to always enter my key club number at checkout. I have only asked my sales associate about specific bottles.

My specs rep said that the manager allocated all the Weller FP, CYPB and Elmer to his friends and not to the highest points members.

EastTexAg14 said:

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Yes and it is ok. If you are local to Houston I can share a sample with you .

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Thanks. I'm in DFW but I appreciate the offer. I ordered one yesterday for a friend who will hopefully let me try it!

AGdent07 said:

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CactusThomas said:

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Do you use your specs key card number when you check out? Do you request specific allocated bottles?

Some specs still use that system where you need to tell them what you want and when they get it they call the people who have requested it in order of specs key card points.

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Yeah I try to always enter my key club number at checkout. I have only asked my sales associate about specific bottles.

My specs rep said that the manager allocated all the Weller FP, CYPB and Elmer to his friends and not to the highest points members.

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And he gets a cut of the sales.

AGdent07 said:

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CactusThomas said:

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Do you use your specs key card number when you check out? Do you request specific allocated bottles?

Some specs still use that system where you need to tell them what you want and when they get it they call the people who have requested it in order of specs key card points.

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Yeah I try to always enter my key club number at checkout. I have only asked my sales associate about specific bottles.

My specs rep said that the manager allocated all the Weller FP, CYPB and Elmer to his friends and not to the highest points members.

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This happens at a lot of the Specs. It's about who you know, not how many points you have.

Yeah I've found that out with the bourbon scene. Having connections with sales reps, liquor store owners, etc is really the only way to consistently get allocated bottles. Otherwise its a complete crap shoot to walk into a store and expect to find anything special on the shelf.

Most distilleries, yes. Buffalo Trace could easily double the price of BTAC, WFP, CYPB, EHTBP, if nothing else, and the Van Winkles and Buffalo Trace as a team could double the price of that entire line as well. If William Larue Weller were $200 MSRP, it would still sell out instantly. I agree that things like Buffalo Trace and Weller SR and even Eagle Rare or regular EH Taylor would probably sit on shelves at double.

So with buffalo trace, which is the theory?

- they are run by incompetent fools who don't realize people like their whiskey and are willing to pay more

- they want people to profit off their products on the secondary market

- they are more into philanthropy than anything else and just like making great bourbon that anyone can afford

I personally think they know what they are doing and are purposeful with their pricing and availability

My only theory is that distilleries really ramped up production a few years ago once the bourbon craze really started. Today, they are still selling inventory that was distilled 5+ years ago and they only have a limited quantity, but in the coming 3-5 years once the increased production has had a chance to age their quantity available to sell will spike. As a result, they don't want to push price today and have to either lower the price in the future or have excess inventory they can't sell.

That doesn't apply to BTAC or other very highly regarded bourbon that is selling for 1/3 to 1/10 of the secondary value. There is no good reason those bottles don't get priced much higher from the distillery.

CactusThomas said:

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So with buffalo trace, which is the theory?

- they are run by incompetent fools who don't realize people like their whiskey and are willing to pay more

- they want people to profit off their products on the secondary market

- they are more into philanthropy than anything else and just like making great bourbon that anyone can afford

I personally think they know what they are doing and are purposeful with their pricing and availability

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I think they can't keep up with the current demand, have invested a crap ton of money in more warehouses and are building supply so they don't want to crank up MSRP if their goal is to have supply for the demand in a few years. Thought I heard they invested billions into their warehouses to try to catch up?

CactusThomas said:

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So with buffalo trace, which is the theory?

- they are run by incompetent fools who don't realize people like their whiskey and are willing to pay more

- they want people to profit off their products on the secondary market

- they are more into philanthropy than anything else and just like making great bourbon that anyone can afford

I personally think they know what they are doing and are purposeful with their pricing and availability

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D. They overextended themselves in the 70's and 80's and when bourbon demand dropped in the 90's they had far more production capacity than they needed, and ended up having to renovate multiple rickhouses into office buildings and lease them out as office space to keep the lights on. And to this day they share their distillery grounds with their office tenants instead of having their grounds to themselves.

I understand they're being cautious not to overreact to the current boom in demand so as not to put themselves in that situation again if it fades, but demand has been booming for well over a decade and still shows no signs of slowing down, peoces are througg the roof and boubon has become well accepted globally as a premium spirit able to be sold at premium prices. Nobody sees it as Kentucky rotgut anymore, and I don't think they never will again. It's past time to start adjusting to the new normal and treating their product as the premium product the whole world now sees it as.

agcrock2005 said:

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CactusThomas said:

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So with buffalo trace, which is the theory?

- they are run by incompetent fools who don't realize people like their whiskey and are willing to pay more

- they want people to profit off their products on the secondary market

- they are more into philanthropy than anything else and just like making great bourbon that anyone can afford

I personally think they know what they are doing and are purposeful with their pricing and availability

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I think they can't keep up with the current demand, have invested a crap ton of money in more warehouses and are building supply so they don't want to crank up MSRP if their goal is to have supply for the demand in a few years. Thought I heard they invested billions into their warehouses to try to catch up?

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They are, but they're years behind the curve. Much of that expansion hasn't even been built yet, let alone put to work. I think a couple warehouses are scheduled to open this year, but that still means multiple years before they produce bottle-ready products, and 6+ years before they can start bottling the in-demand labels.

I don't know what the rub is on Very Old St. Nick, but I spotted the 8 year rye in the wild and today was a day worth celebrating, so I splurged without looking it up. Always wanted to try it and I'm a rye hound. Shopkeep offered me an Eagle Rare to go with it. Both at MSRP, so even if it sucks, I'm pleased.

I had some the other day from a restaurant delivery. It was very disappointed for the price. I actually saw some today and passed on it.

Interesting. Snagged an ER (no great trophy I know but have only seen one other one in the wild at TW and turned that down in favor of a Weller 107) for kicks and a KC specs pick rye that was on the shelf. Must say, the 115 proof rye stands up straight in a sazerac. No mention of the blantons though when I asked but did say the W12 sold out before noon.

I'm impressed...I never found anything at that specs. Small store and they told me the large specs at 45 and Rayford doesn't let much of anything go to the smaller specs. Who knows. Congrats.