Can you transfer to the Corps as a 2nd semester Sophomore or a Junior?

5,512 Views | 32 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by CanyonAg77
Nodoze
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I recently heard that the latest you could transfer to the Corps was as a 1st semester Sophomore (starting your sophomore year) and am hoping that is incorrect.

Not sure if it matters but the potential transferee was previously awarded a 4 year NROTC scholarship and was previously accepted to TAMU and the Corps but ended up going to a Service Academy (SA) last summer instead. Now, due to some personal/family considerations, is considering trying to switch back to A&M.

Is that correct that anytime after 1st semester Sophomore year is too late or can you transfer later?
CharlieBrown17
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AG
I knew at least one guy that transferred in spring of sophomore year as his frog semester and was a junior the next fall.

Pretty sure it goes more by credits/semesters remaining than how many semesters you've been in college.
AgBQ-00
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One of my buddies transferred in as an academic sophomore on verge of junior. He fished in because of the relationships and experiences that builds them. But there were frogs in other outfits that seemed to do well. Have no clue how it would work coming from a service academy
Nodoze
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Charlie & AgBQ-00, Thanks for the replies as that is heartening. I believe the Cadet currently has 18 hours completed with 3.7 last semester as an athlete and is again carrying 18 hours and is on track for around that again this semester. Recently found out likely missed the window for the Fall at A&M. If the Cadet has to wait another semester likely next semester will be another ~18 hours which would be ~54 hours completed at the end of 3 semesters and would be starting in January 2022.
bigtruckguy3500
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Saw someone go from fish one semester to wearing boots the next semester. This was like 15+ years ago though.

Have also seen juniors join, one semester as a fish, on as a soft more, and 1 year as a junior and never wear boots.

Lots of possibilities.
CanyonAg77
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I'd try awfully hard to get to A&M ASAP, if that is their final choice. Maybe even to the point of asking for special dispensation from the Commandant of Cadets to intervene with Admissions. It sounds like there may be some extenuating circumstances.

I have seen people frog in as late as Junior year, but it is difficult. You miss out on the crap years, and just enjoy the good ones, and people tend to resent that. Also, the later you come in, the less likely you are to make good friends. The best friends are the ones who go through the fish year crap with you.

That being said, I truly value some of our classmates who frogged in. We even had a unique case of one guy who spent a year as a non-reg, then a fish year as a BQ, then jumped soph year to join ours as a white belt. He didn't feel it was right to enjoy being an upperclassman, without going through a fish year.

Frankly, since lots of people take 4+ years to graduate, start as a fish, even if you have several hours. Maybe even plan to spend part of Senior year as a grad student, if you already plan to go to grad school.
F4GIB71
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I'm not sure I understand the question. My fish year (1967), we had someone transfer into my outfit from Sam Houston as a junior. He had been in ROTC at Sam for first two years. He was treated as a frog at A&M but the Army didn't see him any differently than any other ROTC cadet.
CanyonAg77
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I was replying simply as to Corps membership. If the guy is at a Service Academy, he had to give up his ROTC scholarship to attend.

If he comes to A&M, my assumption is that he would have to apply for a new scholarship to cover his remaining time, assuming that he still wants to commission.

If he leaves the academy before the first class day of his junior year, he owes no obligation to serve.

I have no idea how they would handle his ROTC class requirements. I assume they would give him a waiver for the first two years.
Nodoze
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F4GIB71, The situation isn't transferring from one ROTC unit at one University to another same branch ROTC unit at different University where there is likely a pretty solid correlation on the Military/Naval Leadership and Military/Naval Science courses. My understanding is that this situation would be a transfer from a Service Academy program to an NROTC program and would involve a change of final destination Service Branch as it isn't USNA to NROTC.

CanyonAg77, Yes, now that the personal circumstances have significantly changed I believe all attempts are being made to get to A&M ASAP but these recent developments have resulted in a late start and some deadlines may have already been missed for this Fall 2021. When discussing this with a current A&M Corps Cadet they were able to confirm that transfers as a 1st Semester Sophomores were doable but that maybe after that it wasn't allowed so I wanted to do some research to help allay the concern that it had to be Fall 2021 or nothing.

As a Service Academy (SA) grad my recollection is that my least hours in a semester was 18 and my largest was 24 and a good number of those classes were Military/Naval Leadership &/or Military/Naval Science (more so than my understanding of what my ROTC friends/peers did). I suspect that on average an incoming SA Cadet who carried 18+ hours all semesters would likely have at least equal if not more Military/Naval Leadership &/or Military/Naval Science completed when compared to their average ROTC peers. That being said my assumption is that any ROTC Academic Department would look at the curriculum requirements on a one-to-one basis and would apply credit to core classes & electives fairly/judiciously but not necessarily liberally and rightfully err on the side of caution not waiving core classes unless confident there is a close match (so likely more application to electives). I suspect some credits (possibly many) will be accepted/applied but would not assume it likely that a Junior would get a blanket waiver on the 1st 2 years except maybe if it was same ROTC/SA branch to same ROTC branch.
CanyonAg77
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Quote:

CanyonAg77, Yes, now that the personal circumstances have significantly changed I believe all attempts are being made to get to A&M ASAP but these recent developments have resulted in a late start and some deadlines may have already been missed for this Fall 2021.
Again, this is why I say to go to someone like the Commandant. Rules can be bent, especially for hardship cases, which this seems to be. You need someone high up the food chain working for you.

If he still wants to commission, I'd also be talking to the the Professor of Naval Science. "Back in the Day", the Corps and ROTC were closely interwoven, with the Professor of Military Science serving as Commandant. Today, the Commandant is not the ROTC guy, he's under the Department of Student Services.

That's why I recommend getting both the Commandant's Office, and the NROTC guys going to bat for your guy.
Nodoze
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CanyonAg77 said:

Quote:

CanyonAg77, Yes, now that the personal circumstances have significantly changed I believe all attempts are being made to get to A&M ASAP but these recent developments have resulted in a late start and some deadlines may have already been missed for this Fall 2021.
Again, this is why I say to go to someone like the Commandant. Rules can be bent, especially for hardship cases, which this seems to be. You need someone high up the food chain working for you.

If he still wants to commission, I'd also be talking to the the Professor of Naval Science. "Back in the Day", the Corps and ROTC were closely interwoven, with the Professor of Military Science serving as Commandant. Today, the Commandant is not the ROTC guy, he's under the Department of Student Services.

That's why I recommend getting both the Commandant's Office, and the NROTC guys going to bat for your guy.
Thank you for the well reasoned advice. I will do what I can to make sure the Cadet is able to review this thread and I will help escalate when/where I am asked/allowed to.
CanyonAg77
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Quote:

I will do what I can to make sure the Cadet is able to review this thread and I will help escalate when/where I am asked/allowed to.
I understand. They are an adult at this point, and it is up to them.

I had a kid who attended a Service Academy, and have been told that they sometimes wish they'd simply done A&M or another ROTC. Academies are a definite leg up, and helpful for special slots, such as pilot, but at the end of the day, you succeed or fail on your performance, not your pedigree.

If the cadet is reading, I want to repeat, get to A&M ASAP. Don't be afraid of starting at the bottom of the ladder, if needed. If you "frog" in, that is to say, enter as an upperclassman, be humble and work hard. I know you've already been there and done that, but A&M is unique. And your classmates are the #1 reason to be an Aggie cadet. Work hard to integrate with them.

Also, let me repeat that you should not be afraid of asking for special help. I have known the current Commandant, BG Joe Ramirez, since he was an 18-year-old fish in the Aggie Band. He is human, not just a flag officer. He is interested in building a large, quality Corps of Cadets, and I feel certain he will do all he can for you.
Warrior 66
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NoDoze - please e-mail me at: jramirez@corps.tamu.edu and provide me all the details, including contact info for the young person in question. We will do all we can to work with them and get them to A&M as a transfer student.

Thanks.
CanyonAg77
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Nodoze,

Hope things work out. When things settle, we'd appreciate knowing what happened, as far as you can tell us without violating anyone's privacy.

And thanks to BG Ramirez (Commandant79) for taking the time to comment on the thread.
Nodoze
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Commandant79 said:

NoDoze - please e-mail me at: jramirez@corps.tamu.edu and provide me all the details, including contact info for the young person in question. We will do all we can to work with them and get them to A&M as a transfer student.

Thanks.
Commandant, After getting over my initial shock that you visited this thread I did my best to follow your instructions. If you did not get an email from my SA address please let me know and I can try again. V/R Nodoze.
CanyonAg77
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Quote:

After getting over my initial shock that you visited this thread
Blame me for bringing it to his attention.

But I am not surprised at all that he responded and is eager to help. I hope your cadet accepts the assistance.
Nodoze
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CanyonAg77 said:

Nodoze,

Hope things work out. When things settle, we'd appreciate knowing what happened, as far as you can tell us without violating anyone's privacy.

And thanks to BG Ramirez (Commandnat79) for taking the time to comment on the thread.
CanyonAg77,

I also hope things work out (ideally this fall 2021 but if not then Spring 2022). I really appreciate everyone's feedback/advice/encouragement in this thread and am really glad that there is no mandatory cutoff after 1st Semester Sophomore year. Once things settle I will try to remember to circle back and report what I can while respecting privacy.

I am also appreciative of the Commandant visiting the thread. It was totally unexpected and I grow more and more impressed by A&M.
Warrior 66
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Got your email, Nodoze, and will respect your privacy and provide an answer by tomorrow. I feel certain we can make this work!

Gig 'em! Thank you for your service!
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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CanyonAg77 said:

Quote:

After getting over my initial shock that you visited this thread
Blame me for bringing it to his attention.

But I am not surprised at all that he responded and is eager to help. I hope your cadet accepts the assistance.
Canyon, when you say "frog in" , do you mean going thru the Corps " hazing " for lack of a better term?

Way back, no matter your academic class a transfer had to go thru one semester before getting upper

class status. And it was the Corps who decided = not the Commandant ' s office.

Seems funny now but the Cadet Colonel at then NTAC was a fellow Frog!
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
CanyonAg77
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Well, Big Jim, it would probably be a good idea to clarify things for our Service Academy friends.

We, and I assume you, referred to anyone who begins with a freshman class in the Fall semester, as a "fish". Anyone who joins later, including the second semester fish year, is a "frog". In my day, frogs could join as late as the fall semester of Junior year.

Frogs generally did not have an easy time, and had to work pretty hard to gain respect. There was resentment that they did not go through all the crap that everyone else did, who showed up on Day 1 of the fall semester.

And the bonds of friendship that formed during the training (never call it hazing) of the fish year were forged quite strongly by enduring training together. Those that joined later missed some of those bonds.

That being said, some of our frogs became a beloved part of our class, and we respect them and accept them today, with zero thought of when they joined.

There were various ways that frogs were integrated. Some did as you say, a semester as a fish, then jump to the academic class with which they belong. We had one guy, as I said above, who did an entire fish year, then joined the junior class at Final Review, skipping the sophomore year. I think today's Corps does at least one semester as a fish before jumping them to their academic year.

When you say that "back in the day" the Corps decided, not the Commandant, well, that's not today's world. Even in my day, we had a lot of autonomy on the Quad, and you seldom saw a Bull outside of ROTC classes. If you did, it was generally Not Good News.

Today's University controls the cadets a lot closer than we ever were, and I suspect we were controlled more than you. The Professor of Military Science is no longer the Commandant, General Ramirez is under the Department of Student Services (I think). As much as I appreciate Joe, I don't think that's a good arrangement, but that's a different discussion. I will say that in my son's day (class of '09) it often seemed that the NROTC detachment was at odds with the Corps in several facets, and that was not good.

We are in a Zero Tolerance world, and a cadet's misdeeds would be around the world on Social Media before the miscreant got back to his dorm.

So the University allows much less autonomy than back in our days, and the cadets have fewer opportunities to make small mistakes and learn from them. Which means that they often avoid small mistakes on the way to HUGE mistakes that blow up on them and our school, with dire consequences.

It's less of a leadership lab, if you're not allowed to lead.

BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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Thanks, Canyon! As always, hitting the nail on it's head !
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
CanyonAg77
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Thanks, to you, too.

I intended to mention that one of the most famous Aggies of all time was a "frog". Didn't James Earl Rudder '32 begin at Tarleton State, and graduated from A&M?

Also, my dad only attended A&M for one semester, until his dad asked him to come home and help with the farm. Dad was considered a frog, as he started during the spring semester.

He was also class of '49, and in C CO INF.
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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Yes re Rudder.

I was a Frog in February 45 - we were in Dorm 2 - no company designation.
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
CanyonAg77
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BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:

Yes re Rudder.

I was a Frog in February 45 - we were in Dorm 2 - no company designation.
Interesting. Were all the frogs together? Who was in charge?
Nodoze
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Thanks gents as I have a distinct feeling that I will be cheering for multiple A&M Corps Cadets in the near future so learning the jargon is helpful. Hopefully this 4th Class Plebe goes straight from Plebe year to being a Fish/Frog as it would kinda suck to be a Fish/Frog after getting used to being a 3/C for a semester...

Though I have never experienced that exact situation I can somewhat understand the feelings that Fish may have toward Frogs... Service Academies (SAs) avoid the Fish vs Frog dilemma because no matter what you do 4 years (unless you graduate early and go straight to combat) and can't skip plebe/swab year. I knew of at least one gent who may have fully finished with his masters and started working on his doctorate as a Firstie but had to do all 4 years.

I implicitly understand that you you just can't recreate the bonds that fish that learned to swim together have... No matter how many great people I have met across the services and no what other units I may have joined, it is only those from my Plebe company where I have every name, hometown, and face memorized (including every expression possible when taking a strain together) and have every tone of voice burned into my psyche. Even when scrambled into other companies and forming bonds with my broader classmates it just isn't the same as the bonds with my fellow plebe company-mates (not necessarily worse but indeed different). Neither my best-friend nor my best room-mate from my class were plebe-mates and while I am very close to them and keep in touch most with them the bonds with my plebe-mates are just different...

In the end we can discuss Fish and Frogs all you want but my SA brethren all know that our particular SA is the only accession source to have real Plebe years and my classmates and I all lament that unfortunately our year was the last real plebe year ;-) .
CanyonAg77
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Nodoze said:

Thanks gents as I have a distinct feeling that I will be cheering for multiple A&M Corps Cadets in the near future so learning the jargon is helpful. Hopefully this 4th Class Plebe goes straight from Plebe year to being a Frog as it would kinda suck to be a Frog after getting used to being a 3/C for a semester...

Though I have never experienced that exact situation I can somewhat understand the feelings that Fish may have toward Frogs... Service Academies (SAs) avoid the Fish vs Frog dilemma because no matter what you do 4 years

I think you understand completely.

Quote:

Neither my best-friend nor my best room-mate from my class were plebe-mates and while I am very close to them and keep in touch most with them the bonds with my plebe-mates are just different...

Again, very much the A&M experience.

Quote:

In the end we can discuss Fish and Frogs all you want but my SA brethren all know that our particular SA is the only accession source to have real Plebe years and my classmates and I all lament that unfortunately our year was the last real plebe year ;-) .

The expression around here is that Old Army died (fill in a year after your graduation). I believe there is a class from USAFA that calls itself the LCWB, as it was the last all-male class.

Quote:

Hopefully this 4th Class Plebe goes straight from Plebe year to being a Frog as it would kinda suck to be a Frog after getting used to being a 3/C for a semester...

He has to do what he needs to do. But were I looking at taking 4+ years to graduate from A&M after transfer, I would seriously look at starting as a fish and going all four years. If he can graduate in three years, then frog.

Quote:

Hopefully this 4th Class Plebe goes straight from Plebe year to being a Frog as it would kinda suck to be a Frog after getting used to being a 3/C for a semester...

Our son-in-law was prior enlisted. So he went through USAF enlisted boot camp, USAFA Prep School's basic training, then Basic Cadet Training and 4/C year at the Academy. So he may want to embrace the suck.



We tell our son-in-law that it took him three rounds of basic training to get it right.
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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Canyon, we were all together - less than 200. Nobody was in charge but a top

sergeant lived on the 2nd floor. We had a KK on the first floor at all times to protect us from the horrible

pheads. Course they got us returning from Duncan.

Capt, Snyder was our Tac officer.

Could your Dad have been there in 44 when Frogs were in units ? Or 46 ?
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
CanyonAg77
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Spring 1946, which is why I place him in the class of 49

I know things were a bit of a mess back then, with the trimester system
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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True. We referred us as first of 49, second of 49 and fall of 49. I know of lots like your Dad who referred

to 49 the fall class.

The three classes of 49 were a mess due to the war and we didn't like each other! Fall class OK.

Glad we got that straight.
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
Nodoze
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Bigjim49 & CanyonAg77,

Thanks for sharing and I really enjoyed the reading about A&M Corps history. Speaking (typing) of A&M history my recollection is that the Cadet's grandparents are good friends with one or more of the A&M Junction Boys so may have some insight into that side of A&M history. ...

Thanks also for the advice regarding coming in as a Fish vs Frog as I don't know if much thought has been given around that yet. I believe the Cadet's current declared major focuses on Security Studies of non-Western threats from the Middle East and China to be able to better help protect America. If I understand correctly the Cadet would come in with 36 SA credits if starting Fall 2021 and likely around 54 SA credits if coming Spring 2022 and has other Texas dual-credit and AP courses as well so likely could easily finish an undergrad in 3 years with the class of 2024 depending on how those credits are applied. That being said, and while the family focuses on athletics, the Cadet is gifted mentally and in addition to A&M was accepted into the hardest schools at some of the top universities like Mendoza at Notre Dame & Elliot at GWU and while the NROTC units there reached out but the Cadet went the SA route instead only keeping TAMU and the Corps as the backup due to delayed SA medical waiver that was eventually granted. Hopefully there are some really good A&M advisors that look at the full breadth of options as the Cadet could likely serve just as well in a think tank or intelligence center as on the battlefield depending on the needs of the Navy. If the Cadet went the Fish route the Cadet could likely finish in 4 years some of the 3+2 programs at the A&M Bush School or other school studying our adversaries like China or threat areas like the Middle East (or both). Bottom line is that there is a decent chance the Cadet could develop into an A&M Corps Fullbright or other scholar if cultivated properly and depending on our country's needs.
CanyonAg77
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Quote:

If the Cadet went the Fish route the Cadet could likely finish in 4 years some of the 3+2 programs at the A&M Bush School
That would be freaking cool.

I recall at least one cadet in my day who graduated in 3 years, then his 4th year in the Corps, he was in Veterinary School.

I suspect that if your cadet joins, he will spend a minimum of one semester as a fish. That should give him time to decide to stay with that class and go to A&M grad school, or go ahead and jump cadet years to join his academic class.

His NROTC instructors and General Ramirez should be able to advise.
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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Good info , Nodoz and Canyon !

I ended up with a commission in the Air Force and served in Germany in Stat Services.

Summer of 45 I joined the Navy after my Frog semester but didn't get called up until Oct.

I bring this up so others can benefit. After Navy discharge, I went into a Corps unit for a year

then nonrig

-then back into the Corps with a contract. To get my commission I had to get in two years

of Military Science but I only had 3 semester to go. The last semester of MS wasn't offered

until I had graduated so I doubled up on MS one semester without asking anybody. It worked.

A friend had the same problem but didn't know he could have doubled up

so he didn't get a commission. Later he was a sgt. in the AF.

When I told him this 50 years later , he was dumbfounded! He would have made a great officer!

If a transfer comes into the Corps , he or she might face the same problem. Be forewarned

Diatribe over.
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
Rabid Cougar
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I had a fish who gained an appointment to the Naval Academy at the beginning of what would have been his sophomore year at A&M.

He had to start all over..
CanyonAg77
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Rabid Cougar said:

I had a fish who gained an appointment to the Naval Academy at the beginning of what would have been his sophomore year at A&M.

He had to start all over..
We had a classmate that had the same thing. Good on both of them for taking it.

The good news is that the Aggie fish year prepared them mentally for the Academy, possibly making it easier.

Though the Academy upperclassmen were probably quite confused when they burst out with, "Sir, not being informed..."
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