Absurd Hazing Charges in the Corps

17,027 Views | 66 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by CanyonAg77
schrodingerschupacabra
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Above are listed allegations of "hazing" being directed at company H1 FOW cadre. These young men have had their lives turned upside down and removed form their unit and all leadership positions due normal corps training. This is outrageous. "Yelling" at freshmen is not hazing. "Making your bed more than once" is not hazing. Is this really the direction we want our Corps to be heading?
AgBQ-00
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AG
They probably would have charged us on criminal charges if this is considered hazing.
Communists aren't people. They are property of the state.
SpiDer2008
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AG
This can't be serious...
AgLaw02
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AG
Allegations of hazing can have serious consequences on cadets. I'd hate for someone to lose their contract over these allegations.
ArmyAg2002
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AG
These things all happened to me at A&M and I never considered them hazing, nor did I consider them hazing when they happened in the military. This is insane.
Quad Dog
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AG
Some of these are situational and could be hazing.
Depending on how long and how often they were forcing cadets to hold their arms out with stuff in them I could see it breaking the PT rules into having. There are a lot of rules around PT these days.
Maybe kicking foot lockers is over the line if they were causing damage.
If they were forcing doors open while cadets are changing clothes, especially with mixed genders, is over the line.
Also all of these are during FOW. There are very specific rules about FOW that are different than the rest of the year.

But changing uniforms and beds quickly and often is a good exercise. Can't tell you how many times uniforms were changed last minute before formation or reviews because of weather. Inspections were always last minute too.
ABATTBQ87
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didn't kick footlockers but we would have been guilty of most of those 1983-1987
chrismaroon
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Regardless of what the commandant comes on here and says, this is happening on and under his watch. That's all that needs to be said.
Wildman15
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Holy crap. My fall semester fish year in 2011 I would have called that whole list "Monday morning"
schrodingerschupacabra
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It is serious, and it is ruining the lives of 10 H1 cadets.
schrodingerschupacabra
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Quad Dog said:

Some of these are situational and could be hazing.
Depending on how long and how often they were forcing cadets to hold their arms out with stuff in them I could see it breaking the PT rules into having. There are a lot of rules around PT these days.
Maybe kicking foot lockers is over the line if they were causing damage.
If they were forcing doors open while cadets are changing clothes, especially with mixed genders, is over the line.
Also all of these are during FOW. There are very specific rules about FOW that are different than the rest of the year.

But changing uniforms and beds quickly and often is a good exercise. Can't tell you how many times uniforms were changed last minute before formation or reviews because of weather. Inspections were always last minute too.
Company H1 is all male. There are no allegations of forcing cadets to change with the door open. There are no other allegations other than what is stated above.

Also-the issue here is there actually are NO specific rules. Nothing here violates any Corps or university policies, whether written or verbal. No one told these cadets what the rules were and they are no where to be found in the Standard Orders.
Wildman15
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I think next year we should just let the fish wear senior boots. Also, no more 90 hour requirement for your ring. Pass those things out like candy on their first day of FOW.
Wildman15
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All joking aside, no one life has been "ruined"........yet. There's still and investigation to go thru. Right now, these are just accusations. I've seen high ranking cadets get charged, but then have the charges dropped. No loss of cadet positions or military contracts. Obviously, that's not the case in every accusation, but let's not put the cart before the horse.

The University is covering its ass right now. The last thing the university wants is some pampered mother screaming Bloody Mary because her baby's complaints were ignored.
chickencoupe16
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Hell, in 2012 we were smoked in the CO's room and more and I was not in what one might call a hard outfit. All of this is child's play, especially compared to the H1 that I remember. They are always... a step above the rest of the Corps.
Quad Dog
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schrodingerschupacabra said:



Also-the issue here is there actually are NO specific rules. Nothing here violates any Corps or university policies, whether written or verbal. No one told these cadets what the rules were and they are no where to be found in the Standard Orders.

I don't know any details at all, I was purely speculating and being a little Devil's Advocate. If you take all of these to the worst extreme and the worst time, then they easily can be hazing. But if done at the right time, right place, and right amount, then they aren't hazing.
I also seriously doubt there aren't specific rules and that the rules aren't in the Standard. If true, that exclusion is a serious failure at many different levels of leadership. The modern Corps is really good at covering their ass legally, so I'm betting there are rules.
If the cadets weren't aware of rules that's their own fault and the fault of their immediate leaders. You can still haze people and be ignorant of the rules.
Rabid Cougar
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Someone called mommy....

Maybe they should try Aggielands instead of Pens and notebooks.
AgBQ-00
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Rabid Cougar said:

Someone called mommy....

Maybe they should try Aggielands instead of Pens and notebooks.


This was my thought as well. Snowplow mom is livid her little one was made to do something hard. But just a guess.
Communists aren't people. They are property of the state.
Agthatbuilds
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Wow.

As jimbo says, it aint (goona be) like it used to be
Get Off My Lawn
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Being told to make your bed and change your clothes more than once during a week?! The atrocity!

If a fish considers being yelled at, holding fish to standards, and breaking a sweat "hazing" then perhaps voluntary participation in this organization isn't the right fit...
InfantryAg
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Wildman15 said:

All joking aside, no one life has been "ruined"........yet. There's still and investigation to go thru. Right now, these are just accusations. I've seen high ranking cadets get charged, but then have the charges dropped. No loss of cadet positions or military contracts. Obviously, that's not the case in every accusation, but let's not put the cart before the horse.

The University is covering its ass right now. The last thing the university wants is some pampered mother screaming Bloody Mary because her baby's complaints were ignored.
Lot of stress over BS Investigations and a possible kangaroo court.

Hopefully they'll be quickly cleared. If it was me, I would become a non-reg ROTC cadet at that point.
Wildman15
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it wouldn't surprise me at all if this turned into a kangaroo court
cavscout96
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InfantryAg said:

Wildman15 said:

All joking aside, no one life has been "ruined"........yet. There's still and investigation to go thru. Right now, these are just accusations. I've seen high ranking cadets get charged, but then have the charges dropped. No loss of cadet positions or military contracts. Obviously, that's not the case in every accusation, but let's not put the cart before the horse.

The University is covering its ass right now. The last thing the university wants is some pampered mother screaming Bloody Mary because her baby's complaints were ignored.
Lot of stress over BS Investigations and a possible kangaroo court.

Hopefully they'll be quickly cleared. If it was me, I would become a non-reg ROTC cadet at that point.


Must be in the corps to commission through ROTC.
JABQ04
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I thought wasn't true. I swear I remember a cadet who was a non-reg.
cavscout96
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The only way to commission through ROTC at Texas A&M is as a member of the Corps.

There are commissioning programs , outside ROTC, that will accept non-regs. Marine PLC is one example, but it is NOT ROTC.

2004FIGHTINTXAG
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These kids will probably be charged by a President Young court. Meanwhile the verified race hoaxer gets off, gets his ring and diploma.
Wildman15
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2004FIGHTINTXAG said:

These kids will probably be charged by a President Young court. Meanwhile the verified race hoaxer gets off, gets his ring and diploma.
Speaking of President Young, the association called me today asking for money. I said I wouldn't donate until Young was out of office. They said I wasn't the first one who said that today
InfantryAg
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cavscout96 said:

InfantryAg said:


Lot of stress over BS Investigations and a possible kangaroo court.

Hopefully they'll be quickly cleared. If it was me, I would become a non-reg ROTC cadet at that point.
Must be in the corps to commission through ROTC.
I had heard of someone challenging this a couple of years ago, and being able to not be on the corps, but can't find any confirmation.

Makes it tougher on these guys when you can't even trust the higher ups to not throw you under the bus, and you have to stay part of the organization.

Maybe a good taste of why so many leave active duty as captains.
Trident 88
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If that is the entire list of hazing charges, then they should just go ahead and replace the Corps with the typical kind of ROTC program found at most colleges.
cavscout96
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InfantryAg said:

cavscout96 said:

InfantryAg said:


Lot of stress over BS Investigations and a possible kangaroo court.

Hopefully they'll be quickly cleared. If it was me, I would become a non-reg ROTC cadet at that point.
Must be in the corps to commission through ROTC.
I had heard of someone challenging this a couple of years ago, and being able to not be on the corps, but can't find any confirmation.

Makes it tougher on these guys when you can't even trust the higher ups to not throw you under the bus, and you have to stay part of the organization.

Maybe a good taste of why so many leave active duty as captains.

It's been challenged many times and never overturned. It's part of A&Ms legal (statutory is probably a better word here) designation as an SMC.
74OA
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cavscout96 said:

InfantryAg said:

cavscout96 said:

InfantryAg said:


Lot of stress over BS Investigations and a possible kangaroo court.

Hopefully they'll be quickly cleared. If it was me, I would become a non-reg ROTC cadet at that point.
Must be in the corps to commission through ROTC.
I had heard of someone challenging this a couple of years ago, and being able to not be on the corps, but can't find any confirmation.

Makes it tougher on these guys when you can't even trust the higher ups to not throw you under the bus, and you have to stay part of the organization.

Maybe a good taste of why so many leave active duty as captains.

It's been challenged many times and never overturned. It's part of A&Ms legal (statutory is probably a better word here) designation as an SMC.
My memory of Corps details is increasingly sketchy, but I distinctly recall "Day Ducks" who were contract ROTC cadets, but they didn't live on the Quad, wore the uniform a couple of times a week and only occasionally participated in outfit training.

My point is that there is a precedent for earning a ROTC commission at A&M while only being technically attached to the Corps and without being required to fully participate in Corps life. Or am I misremembering?
cavscout96
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74OA said:

cavscout96 said:

InfantryAg said:

cavscout96 said:

InfantryAg said:


Lot of stress over BS Investigations and a possible kangaroo court.

Hopefully they'll be quickly cleared. If it was me, I would become a non-reg ROTC cadet at that point.
Must be in the corps to commission through ROTC.
I had heard of someone challenging this a couple of years ago, and being able to not be on the corps, but can't find any confirmation.

Makes it tougher on these guys when you can't even trust the higher ups to not throw you under the bus, and you have to stay part of the organization.

Maybe a good taste of why so many leave active duty as captains.

It's been challenged many times and never overturned. It's part of A&Ms legal (statutory is probably a better word here) designation as an SMC.
My memory of Corps details is increasingly sketchy, but I distinctly recall "Day Ducks" who were contract ROTC cadets, but they didn't live on the Quad, wore the uniform a couple of times a week and only occasionally participated in outfit training.

My point is that there is a precedent for earning a ROTC commission at A&M while only being technically attached to the Corps and without being required to fully participate in Corps life. Or am I misremembering?
V1 "Day Ducks" were still members of the Corps and the only ones eligible, when I was a cadet, were married folks, veterans, and folks whose parents lived locally. I think this is, generally, still the case.

You must still remain a member of the Corps, even if it's as a day cadet, to commission through ROTC.
InfantryAg
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cavscout96 said:

InfantryAg said:


I had heard of someone challenging this a couple of years ago, and being able to not be on the corps, but can't find any confirmation.

It's been challenged many times and never overturned. It's part of A&Ms legal (statutory is probably a better word here) designation as an SMC.
Makes sense, thanks for the clarification.
InfantryAg
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AG
cavscout96 said:

74OA said:


My memory of Corps details is increasingly sketchy, but I distinctly recall "Day Ducks" who were contract ROTC cadets, but they didn't live on the Quad, wore the uniform a couple of times a week and only occasionally participated in outfit training.

My point is that there is a precedent for earning a ROTC commission at A&M while only being technically attached to the Corps and without being required to fully participate in Corps life. Or am I misremembering?
V1 "Day Ducks" were still members of the Corps and the only ones eligible, when I was a cadet, were married folks, veterans, and folks whose parents lived locally. I think this is, generally, still the case.
I was in V1 at that timeframe and can confirm. Now they also have D Co for veterans with a deployment, who have the option of living off campus.

I only spent a year in V1, but was more interested in going out than commissioning. Ended up commissioning through OCS, after 9-11.

https://corps.tamu.edu/d-co/

Naveronski
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AG
Kicking a foot locker and reciting campo's is hazing now?

New Army is soft.
And probably racist or some such horse*****
AGhistorian
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So since we only see the charge sheet and don't have any of the context it's really hard to say what is an is not legitimate.

I will say this. The training conducted during FOW is supposed to specifically planned, executed, and approved. Also PT during FOW is only authorized at specific times in the training schedule, in specific context, and by specified cadets. Additionally corrective PT is generally not authorized until a certain point after FOW, and again must be done in a specific fashion to demonstrate its connection to actual training.

So if these cadets violated the approved training plan, and conducted these activities in a manner that was not authorized during FOW then they would be in the wrong. Now there may be an argument, between is this being hazing and some other type of disciplinary matter, but either way not following the approved training plan isn't a good thing. It's easy to forget sometimes that in the University's eye the Corps is a student organization and must go through the Student Conduct process just like any other organization. However unlike other student organizations any student conduct case dealing with the Corps must have a member of the Commandant's Staff as part of the investigating team, and the proceedings. There is no kangaroo court, there is a deliberate investigation, and a hearing, before any determination is made.

I'm always a bit confused by the outrage about the Corps being different from what it was years ago. It's been over 15 years since I was a cadet, and I can say I never got anything good out of being crapped out in my COs room after pulling his boots. Or being crapped out with 46 other fish in the showers, in winter PTs, rain jacket, and watch cap. I mean it makes for some funny stories but that's really about it. I wish I would have done less of that and had better grades, or made more friends off the quad, and so on.

People keep saying that new Army is soft, and these types of things have ruined the Corps. However I keep meeting recent graduates who are Army platoon leaders, or new SF ODA commanders, and they seem like sharp, tough, smart people to me. So I guess I'm ok with the direction things are headed in.
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