Howdy Ags! I'm currently a rising senior so I will be going to Advance camp this summer at Fort Knox! I have a couple of questions for those who may be able to offer advice! I know I have come to this board several times now with similar questions so please bear with me.

1. I have narrowed down my top 3 branches to Military intelligence, Armor, and Field Artillery.
My question is, which of these 3 in yalls opinion would be the best to pursue and why?

Some of my factors to consider are:
- family life. This is very important to me (I fully understand that any position in the army will put a strain to some extent but would love to hear if there is a branch (of my top 3)that is better than the others in this regard).

- Frequency of deployment (I'm excited to get the opportunity to deploy, just interested to see which of these 3 in yalls experience have the higher rate of deployment).

- Job satisfaction - while the biggest factor for commissioning is getting to serve my country, I would also like a job that will keep me satisfied for the most part (not behind a desk 24/7), but also not in the field 24/7 like infantry. From yalls experience which of these 3 branches to people seem to love the most?

2. While I do fine passing all of our land Nav tests and practicals at lab, it is still my weak point and something that makes me a little nervous going into camp.

Any practical advice on how to improve upon my land nav skills before heading into camp in June? Thank y'all very much for any advice, and sorry if my questions are dumb, just curious for some wiser advice from some Ags.

I spent nine years in the Army as an Armor Officer and got out in '16.

Much of this depends on your short/long term military plans and your educational background. I majored in history then spent nine years as a combat arms guy. When I got out of the Army, the jobs did not necessarily throw themselves at me. I've ended up doing quite well, but often it is a case that people in the civilian world don't grasp what a combat arms officer does thus they don't think you're prepared for the corporate world. This is why a MOS in transportation, logistics, or intel might be worth considering. Especially if you aren't going to make the Army a career. The skills born of those MOS's tend to line up more easily with jobs in the civilian sector.

In regards to deployments... hard to comment on. Currently, those are rare, in comparison to when I did my time, but that could change in a heartbeat if something kicks off. So, either way, be mentally prepared to spend a great deal of time away from family/friends. Also, deployments mean a great deal of time away from your loved ones for months leading up to the actual deployment. BN/BDE field exercises, gunnery, and training center rotations can add up real damn quick. Also, in regards to workload or work/life balance. So much of that is dependent on your commander...CO/BN/BDE. Some guys get that a happy Soldier is a good Soldier and limit work hours while maintaining readiness. Some guys, sadly there are a lot of these in the Army, believe that unless you are misrealbe you are not doing your job, thus ungodly hours. Personally I found this mentality more in combat arms than in other MOS's.

In regards to being an Armor officer, I loved every second I spent in an Abrams. Its been years since I've been in one and the sounds, smells, and movements of my M1A1SA are as vivid today as when they happened. I'm not being dramatic those moments are some of the finest memories I hold. Sadly, the amount of time you will spend sitting in your tank is depressingly limited. Time is precious in the Army and tanks are expensive to operate thus you don't get to ride them nearly as often as you want to or should.

Keep us posted. I'd be interested in what you decide. Good luck.

PS- Don't go FA. It's anecdotal but in all my years in the Army the job satisfaction of those dudes seemed shockingly low. If you want to be the tip of the spear go AR or IN.

Deployments: Branches don't deploy, units do. So if your unit deploys, every officer (except the sick, lame, lazy, and the unfortunate Rear-D commander) goes regardless of branch. As an Intel 2LT, you are probably not going to get assigned to the Strategic Intel unit at Fort Sam Houston, so you will probably be in a divisional unit.

Units: Intel 2LTs can potentially get stuck in the brigade S2X, etc shop and never experience battalion life. What a sad place for a lieutenant to be. Nobody there is happy and they all hate their lives. You could also get permanently assigned to the brigade special troops battalion, which is a battalion but without the lineage and (not as strong) camaraderie. As an armor officer, you'll get sent to a BN as soon as possible. Battalions are fun, brigade staffs are not.

Job satisfaction: That will 99.17% on your unit. You'll meet a thousand Soldiers of every rank who talk about how great their last unit was or how ate-up their last unit was. If your BN Cdr is great, you'll love your experience no matter what your job is. If your BN CSM runs the place and focuses on millions of last minute NCO meetings and taskings, you'll get cynical no matter what your job is.

Job details: An Intel guy is just another staff weenie. I know among cadets that "Intel" seems exotic and sexy, but in reality it's just another guy on the staff making Power Point slides. You aren't going to be cracking the Enigma code and discovering links to find Bin Laden. Your job will be behind a computer all day every day. And, as an aside, the S2 is frequently the S3's (a major) punching bag.

As an Armor officer, you'll most likely spend a few months under the Assistant S3's thumb making CONOPs and ordering ammo for the BN gunnery, but at least there will be light at the end of the tunnel. There is no better job in the world than hanging out in the motor pool with 20 grumpy-but-motivated privates and NCOs, getting to know your Soldiers and your tracks and learning how to train a unit and do all the admin stuff nobody trains you to do. As an Armor captain, you might get stuck being the S4 (who is the BN XO's punching bag), but the best get assigned as the Assistant S3, which gives you your own little fiefdom and is actually a lot of fun.

I haven't met a happy FA LT in a long, long time. In maneuver battalions, they're usually re-cast into some hybrid S2/S3 "targeting officer" role, which is loved by nobody and looked at with distrust because nobody knows what they're doing. I've also seen a lot of FA lieutenants made into PSD (the BN Cdr's truck crew) PLs. I'd rather take a shower with my dad than be the BN Cdr's personal delivery boy. In maneuver companies, the FA lieutenant frequently becomes the Extra-Extra Officer (Extra Officer is a pejorative for XO) and some animal titled "effects officer".

First of all, thank you all for your service. It would seem that Armor is a popular branch coming from TAMU, which makes sense as I know a lot of the seniors in the program this year put it as their top choice and got it.

Armor honestly sounds like an all around very rewarding and enjoyable experience based on what I have heard about the branch. A lot of (less knowledgable on the topic) people I talk to on the subject often ask me questions like "do we even still use tanks?" so I guess that kind of answers that question!

In regards to M.I. and F.A. I am disappointed to hear that the job quality/satisfaction is so low, but I guess that is why you should ask questions. It seems like perhaps FA is oversaturated or there is not as much of a need for FA?
Part of my reasoning for considering M.I. is that I know that they often times send people out for a branch detail in which I could potentially choose to do FA or Armor for 4 years and then fulfill my M.I. job at Captain. Is this a viable route that offers the best of both the combat arms world, as well as the M.I. world? One of the main reasons I like this idea is that I feel as though M.I. would offer more family life flexibility as well as post Army career opportunities.

I honestly have not put a whole lot of thought into the logistical branches just due to ignorance and the fact that they just don't seem to be very exciting (I understand this is flawed reasoning). That being said, I would be interested to hear from a Transportation or logistics Officer or at least hear some insight on those branches.

Back to Armor, I am definitely stronger in the history, english, literature department than I am in math and science. I prefer interpersonal interaction and communication over the technical side of things. Would any of this play a factor in dealing with ARBOLC or ARC?

Thank yall, this thread has already been very helpful!

Very Respectfully.

You are right that the branch detail can go a long way for you. One of my buddies was branched Signal with detail to Armor. He ended up getting his way and stayed Armor. So if you really like what they put you into there is a way to stay there. You just have to know the right people and do good at your job.

For the logistics side, they all come together for your CCC. At that point you are a Logistics Officer. It makes it easier for them to slot you and you are "suppose" to know how to deal with all the branches that fall under it.

I was Ordnance, but branched transferred to Civil Affairs after a MOB in '11. For me the job just felt better and I got to deal with people a lot more. Each person will find something they like and that's what your going to have to do.

Good luck at Knox and when are you going. My PCS is to there this summer.

I have nothing to offer to your decision (I'm an Aviation WO), but there's a great German restaurant in Radcliff you get the chance to leave post during your time at Ft Knox.

I'm obviously Aviation Branch, but my background is with light infantry and heavy divisions....so taking a look at your choices, I'd recommend going Armor. I'm assuming you want some sort of 'combat arms' perspective, it's just a matter of how much you want to maneuver. You are running a lot of risk as an INTEL officer during your first assignment. You can always branch detail. As a BN CDR, my S2 was a former Armor Officer, and the dude was on it when it came to a counter-recon fight or 'deep attack', timed triggers and assisting us with engagement area development.

I'd recommend taking deployments out of your screening criteria. As someone mentioned, units deploy not branchs. Active/Guard Aviation Brigades and MP Brigades are just about tapped out for deployments/rotations......active duty, just about every ABCT is set to rotate somewhere. The OPTEMPO isn't that much lower than before, just a matter of what COCOM you are supporting.

If you are weak in land nav....guys will help you out. Someone one Rudders got me squared away and I eventually took to orienteering. Start hiking. Take and study maps. Anywhere I go, I study maps well before I show up. I can see the terrain like a map in my head....and I always thank my Rudders Rangers buddy who helped me out pisshead year.

Good luck. I hope to serve with you down the road.

Take this FWIW, but after serving as an enlisted artillery man, I found the role of FA Lts to be interesting. Once they graduate BOLC you are more than likely going to be a PL of a howitzer unit (which depending on where you are stationed is either the M777, M119, or M109A6), or a rocket unit ,MLRS, or you can be a FSO for a maneuver unit, or you can be a Fire Direction Officer for rocket or cannon units. The battalions I was in would switch these guys every so often to get them experience I the other roles. Deployed was a different animal. My two trips to Iraq we're spent doing what the Infantry did. Raids, patrolling, etc... all the cool guy stuff. Didn't need us shooting the big guns. Afghanistan we got to shoot our M777 in support of combat operations which was a blast (pun intended). I don't know why everyone is ****ting on FA LTs. Lots of variety and lots of chances to lead troops. Like just about everyone else has said, your happiness will be dictated by your unit and CoC. There's great ones and then there's the crappy ones. Work your ass off no matter job or branch your given. People notice and you get rewarded. It's easy to see who cares about their job and who's there to check the block. Take care of your men (or women) and they'll take care of you. Just remember, everyone talks **** about arty until they're in a TIC and suddenly we're their best friend.

Edit*. Do what you have to do to learn land navigation. All howitzer are now digital and have movement orders sent to the guns via FDC (either BN or Battery). It's not like Waze or Mapquest. It just gives you a direction and how much further to go. Still have to know the map and figure out how to get there. Also going to need it for FSO and FDO time. 100% needed min FA world

I voluntarily branch transferred from Armor to LG. As an Armor officer I was a line PL, the BN scout PL, and the BN support platoon PL, a troop XO, AS3, and S4. Then I commanded a support company in a tank battalion as my first LG job. I branch transferred because I found the support platoon and XO jobs to be cool. Being a support LT in a maneuver battalion is a lot of fun (I think, I was just the Cdr). If you're a team-first guy, you can be an absolute star in a maneuver BN. If you spend most of your time saying "that's not our job" then you'll get stuffed in a locker and your BN XO and Cdr will hate you. It's really that simple.

As a support PL in a maneuver battalion, you'll be one of the boys. You'll be asked to support and secure your own platoon movements, you'll be made to qualify your truck crews (driver, gunner on top of the HMMWV, you) on full scout gunnery lanes, you'll sleep in the field with the battalion, etc. I don't think the support battalions are anywhere close to the same experience as the maneuver battalion supporters. If you grow up in a maneuver battalion, you'll see the world through the maneuver eyes. If you grow up in a support battalion, you'll see the world differently. I don't know if that's necessarily bad, but there are a lot of BN Cdrs and BN XOs that love supporters that are maneuver-team-first guys.

Thanks for the advice! I will be going for 3rd Regiment so June 3 - July 9.

I can attest to Tango_Mike's post above. If you go Logistics (in my case I was a QM) and are in a Forward Support Company, there are few jobs more fulfilling. You will carry a ton of informal respect, so long as you prove your competence. Keep the mission first mindset, and eventually the Combat Arms guys-specifically the 1SG's, CDR's, and XO's will seek out your feedback. There are few jobs more challenging than logistical support of our heavy formations within the Army, and if you excel it will make subsequent logistics roles that much easier.

I was not QM by choice (~40% on the OML), in fact I had all Combat Arms listed at the top of my wishlist and was a needs-of-the-army placement. It honestly could not have worked out better for me. I was still able to go to Ranger school, and get that hooah out of my system. I am still serving although now in the Army Reserves, and having been a prior active-duty heavy background logistician has prepared me for success.

Don't be a blue falcon at camp, as someone mentioned above, work with Rudders/Pathfinders to get where you need to be Land Nav wise. You will end up where you are meant to be, always remember to improve your foxhole wherever you go. I deploy in three weeks, my first in the Reserves, and wish you success in your upcoming camp. It goes quick!
DBALB!
-Kyle

Is that the place painted with the obnoxious white/blue scheme? The only other restaurant I remember from my Knox days was the all you could eat Chinese buffet. I think it was $9.99

Doesn't sound right. This place is a little old house on a side street.

What's the sound of artillery?

Find a Fister. They'll train you up right in land nav.

Yeah... I think that's going to draw the wrong kind of attention in many of the places I travel to - WeHo for one.

HollywoodBQ said:

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Yeah... I think that's going to draw the wrong kind of attention in many of the places I travel to - WeHo for one.

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Maybe it'll draw the right kind of attention....if you get my drift

JABQ04 said:

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HollywoodBQ said:

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Yeah... I think that's going to draw the wrong kind of attention in many of the places I travel to - WeHo for one.

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Maybe it'll draw the right kind of attention....if you get my drift

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Yeah, that's not a problem I have. Unfortunately, I get hit on by dudes all the time.

Tango_Mike said:

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Being a support LT in a maneuver battalion is a lot of fun (I think, I was just the Cdr). If you're a team-first guy, you can be an absolute star in a maneuver BN. If you spend most of your time saying "that's not our job" then you'll get stuffed in a locker and your BN XO and Cdr will hate you. It's really that simple.

As a support PL in a maneuver battalion, you'll be one of the boys. You'll be asked to support and secure your own platoon movements, you'll be made to qualify your truck crews (driver, gunner on top of the HMMWV, you) on full scout gunnery lanes, you'll sleep in the field with the battalion, etc.

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Awesome -- and so true! Back in my day the Support PL was an Armor guy -- and always selected among the best LTs in the battalion because it is a challenging and incredibly important job. Normally a BSB commander will pick his/her best to go into those slots in maneuver battalions -- and the good BC & SCOs take care of them.

The German place in Radcliff is the Deutsche Ecke. It is still there. Solid schnitzel, and you can get a legit German Hefeweizen on tap.

Cadets probably won't get a chance to go, but it is a great recommendation for the 2LTs serving as Cadre for camp enroute to BOLC.

Lots of solid advice on this thread.

thanks for the food recommendations. I also heard the Korean place outside the gate is really good. . Ill be sure to look them up. the rumor me for me is I'm going to be in the G3 at HRC so we will all see how that goes.

A buddy of mine did that job for two years. Wife was from Vine Grove, and they were retiring there, so it was a great gig for them.

As a pre-Benning Armor guy, it is hard to see the state of Knox and the surrounding area. At least it is no longer a dry county!

I am a former enlisted tanker. I spent two years in the support platoon of an armor battalion.

We got a really good PL during my Iraq deployment. He was an armor officer and a pretty smart guy. I think he liked the line company better but made a good transition to the support platoon.

I went from Germany to Korea after the deployment and went straight to a line unit. Our PL was a signal officer who got branch detailed to armor. Pretty good guy but I could tell he wasn't really the tanker type. He got sent to Hawaii to a signal slot and seemed absolutely delighted.

So it really depends. Armor is not a glamorous job, and if you think it's all about rolling down the road like a badass and shooting rounds downrange, you would be very mistaken. It's a lot of training and a lot of work. Of course my experience was more "***** boy" as a lower enlisted soldier, but the LT sleeps on the tank with everyone else and gets almost as dirty sometimes. I would probably go back to the Army as an officer in a heartbeat if my body allowed it.

Some random thoughts from a retired guy (Infantry, 1996-2007, FA59 Strategist, 2008-2016). I've been retired for 3 years now, and out of the line unit part of the Army for most of a decade, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt.

- if you're weak(er) on math or just don't like it, FA might not be the best place. The FDC boss (LT job) needs to be able to do math. Yes, the primary FDC systems are all computerized now, but equipment breaks, even when the bad guys aren't doing their best to help. Good commanders will make their troops train for this - a lot. The slide rule will be your best friend. (This also goes for the mortar platoon in any maneuver unit.) Firing platoons need to be able to do their number crunching manually as well. (If you want more information about doing artillery the old fashioned way, buy the Commandant a drink - he was a red leg, and an instructor at Fort Sill back in the 80s.)

- that said, in a good unit, the Company/Battalion/Brigade FSO will have a better handle on what the unit is doing and the scheme of maneuver than anyone except the commander (and S3) because they have to understand, and track, the whole thing in order to plan and deploy fires (I did my platoon and company time pre-COIN, so it was all fires, none of this 'effects' stuff) to support it. Also, with the Big Army shift in focus to near-peer adversaries (Russia, ChiCom PLA), FA is regaining the importance it lost during the infantry-centric COIN fights of OIF and OEF. The Russians have demonstrated how devastating artillery - tube and rocket - can be when paired with new tech like drones and old tech like radio direction finding. (And Big Army is having to work very hard to re-learn skills that old guys like the Commandant could do in their sleep.)

- I know new LTs don't have a lot of control over where they end up once their personnel file ends up in the hands of a division or BCT G1/S1, but for AR, you might want to think about tanker armor (combined arms Bn) or cavalry armor (RSTA Sqdn)? Big difference in missions and how they operate. Oh, and RSTA guys HAVE to be good at Land Nav. That said, and keeping in mind the end bit in the previous bullet, against someone like the Russians, the RSTA guys (and their FOs/FSOs) will have a very important job finding the bad guys and bringing the indirect fire scunion on them - and preventing the bad guys from doing it to us.

-Last I checked, there were one or two PL jobs for LTs (usually 1LTs) in a maneuver unit. The radio controlled airplane drone platoon, maybe a SIGINT platoon. I can't recall the exact structure of the MICO, but it would also have an XO (again, a 1LT). In my experience, those jobs were always given to senior MI LTs, and the competition among the Bn AS-2s for those jobs was fierce.

- All of the above aside, if you go to any sort of combat arms job - infantry, armor, combat engineer, FA - PL time is PL time. When I was in a heavy (mech infantry - I pre-date combined arms battalions) battalion, support PL was kind of the booby prize for being the best senior LT in the battalion. The good tank or mech battalion commanders gave the job to the best LT because support platoon owns the fuel trucks, and without fuel, a heavy unit is mostly useless. Scout and mortar PL slots went to #2 and #3. All three went to maneuver branch LTs - IN or AR, depending on the type of battalion. (Fun fact - if you're the mortar PL when they do EIB, you can earn the EIB, even if you're armor branch, and wear it as long as you remain mortar PL.)

FWIW: Think about a MOS that will translate to a career post Army. Something that will give you some skills, and allow you to transition to a contractor, or GS job. A loop hole that exists is where you can be in the Army for 9-12 year as AC, transition to the RC and count your AC years towards RC points for retirement. At the same time, you then take a job as a GS (doing intel, whatever..) You can then use your AC years and buy into the GS retirement. When you are 60-65 you will retire from GS, and after having put in your 20+ in the RC will actually collect 2 retirement paychecks from the government.

Play the long game. Don't buy into the hooah and plan you career. If you don't look out for yourself, no one else will.

Zulu451 said:

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FWIW: Think about a MOS that will translate to a career post Army. Something that will give you some skills, and allow you to transition to a contractor, or GS job. A loop hole that exists is where you can be in the Army for 9-12 year as AC, transition to the RC and count your AC years towards RC points for retirement. At the same time, you then take a job as a GS (doing intel, whatever..) You can then use your AC years and buy into the GS retirement. When you are 60-65 you will retire from GS, and after having put in your 20+ in the RC will actually collect 2 retirement paychecks from the government.

Play the long game. Don't buy into the hooah and plan you career. If you don't look out for yourself, no one else will.

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I agree with this. However, I'd caveat it by stating that young officers should be somewhat careful in planning out their long term career goals.

I found it annoying when some brand new 2LT would make his plans for becoming a general known to anyone who would listen. Attempt to positively impact your career thru planning, however, regardless of the various jobs, you get along the way the best path to success seems to be doing each and every job to the best of your abilities.

I am an MI Warrant Officer so take this for what it is worth. I would recommend looking at MI but branch detailed to Armor or Infantry. Great MI officers understand maneuver and can speak it fluently to their commanders. Once you have a good grasp on how Blue/Red maneuver and fight it is not that difficult to learn IPB and the IWfF. Spending your LT time as a maneuver officer and also attending the Maneuver CCC can really set you up well as an MI CPT.

I have definitely worked with talented MI pure officers but thinking of the latest batch I work with, the MI Captains that were branch detailed are better performers.

LewisChilds said:

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I am an MI Warrant Officer so take this for what it is worth. I would recommend looking at MI but branch detailed to Armor or Infantry. Great MI officers understand maneuver and can speak it fluently to their commanders. Once you have a good grasp on how Blue/Red maneuver and fight it is not that difficult to learn IPB and the IWfF. Spending your LT time as a maneuver officer and also attending the Maneuver CCC can really set you up well as an MI CPT.

I have definitely worked with talented MI pure officers but thinking of the latest batch I work with, the MI Captains that were branch detailed are better performers.

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The caveat with this is that selecting MI and volunteering for a "branch detail" limits your options down the road -- a very high percentage of AR/IN officers who decide to stay in the Army past 4 years want to do so in their detail branch -- and MI is NOT going to just let you stay Armor or Infantry.

People DO get out of their details, but it is difficult, and usually requires someone with influence intervening on your behalf with Human Resources Command -- and you can't count on that.

However, if you basic branch IN/AR, and at the 4 year mark decide you would prefer to try something else, those branches are willing to let you go, and MI is willing to take you -- that is a MUCH easier move to make.

I disagree on the "pick a branch that gives you post-Army skills" advice. The things that make an officer attractive to an employer, post-Army are not technical/vocational. They are: experience in leadership, project management, and responsibility. Most branches give you that -- most particularly the combat arms.

If you REALLY want to work for DIA as a GS, then being MI *might* give you a leg up, provided you actually work in strategic intelligence. If you want to join the FBI or be a cop, going MP *might* be valuable experience. But none of those agencies are going to screen out IN/AR/FA officers with good files/resumes.

Do want interests you, and be the best at it you can be. And then pursue the jobs that help you meet your goals.

When I went to my Engineer Officers Basic, I was informed the EOBC was the second toughest OBC in the Army with Military Intelligence being number one. Now, that was over 30 years ago so I do not know if that has changed but I do know that MI is probably the number one branch for selectivity.

Now, if you are an outdoors individual that does not like mind games, MI is not for you.

APHIS AG said:

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When I went to my Engineer Officers Basic, I was informed the EOBC was the second toughest OBC in the Army with Military Intelligence being number one. Now, that was over 30 years ago so I do not know if that has changed but I do know that MI is probably the number one branch for selectivity.

Now, if you are an outdoors individual that does not like mind games, MI is not for you.

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MI is one of the more competitive branches, but it is also the largest branch -- accessing 390+ LTs per year (compered to ~330 for Infantry, 150 for Armor, and ~130 for Medical Service.)

Generally, in order of competitiveness:

Medical Service
Infantry
Aviation
Armor
MI
Engineers

The exact order varies from year to year

Cyber is very competitive, but also very small -- and requires interviews and qualifications that make it a special case.

Per the FY17 Branching Slides- Allocations for MI- 381, Armor- 129, and Infantry-334.

USMA alone made 207 IN and 193 AR LTs this month (or will next week). I also did labor Econ research for Cadet Command in December. They have 1000+ to fill... "smile"

Here's an easy check: Go to ATRRS and look at the IN/AR BOLC courses. They have 200+ per course, 10 courses per year. It's going to be really hard to fill those with 300 combined this year. But I'm just an external HQE...

Edit: You can also read the FY 16-20 POM. It's a little hard to find in the appendices to the President's budget, but all the numbers are there. The annual President's budget isn't useful because it aggregates everything

Trident15 said:

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Per the FY17 Branching Slides- Allocations for MI- 381, Armor- 129, and Infantry-334.

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Yeah... that's more like what I was thinking. Granted, it's been a million years since I was a 2LT (25 anyway) but in my era, there were only about 200 Armor Officers per Year Group on Active Duty.

And... from memory, there were only about 3,000 Officers on Active Duty per Year Group (post Soviet Union collapse).

Obviously, hay mas en La Guarda y Las Reservas which is probably why you see more slots available for a particular course. When I did Armor Officer Basic, we had 8 Active Duty guys and 26 National Guardsmen and they were running about 12 classes/year so you can workout the math on how many Total Army 2LTs there were in Armor. Honestly, I would expect those numbers to be even lower today which jives with the 129 Armor number.