West Point or the Corps?

14,797 Views | 45 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Southlake
Bird Poo
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My son has a chance at getting into West Point. Automatically qualifies for A&M admission.

I've seen many comments on texags suggesting that West Point graduates are not what they used to be, or are perhaps inferior in some respects to A&M graduates?

The idea of a free education is attractive, but I would rather pay for his education if there is something better.

Your thoughts on this subject are much appreciated!
A. Solzhenitsyn
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does he want to make the military a career, or does he plan to do his time and get out?
Bird Poo
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A. Solzhenitsyn said:

does he want to make the military a career, or does he plan to do his time and get out?
Do his time and get out to start a career.
sek92
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my husband did Aggieland, his brother did West point. they both made a career out of it. I think the aggie network is stronger. My husband bleeds maroon, his brother not so much on west point stuff. His brother is introverted and keeps to himself, my husband extroverted and makes every experience great!. I think it all depends if he wants the full army experience from the start or more easing into it. Each person will make any situation their own. Our son, will go to A&M if he has the choice. if he getting out, go be an Aggie!! (probably useless post but every kid is different and every kid will make their experience their own, )
hillcountryag86
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There probably is not a right answer. Your son needs to visit, research, and decide which best fits him.

Since you are a graduate, he's grown up with the traditions, spirit -- everything Aggie. If you weren't in the corps, there are plenty of folks to call who can help him. Spend the night is good but take it with caution. It is a snapshot of primarily one outfit on one weekend. It doesn't represent every outfit.

I would think visiting both schools would go a long way to help him decide.
74OA
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PearlJammin said:

A. Solzhenitsyn said:

does he want to make the military a career, or does he plan to do his time and get out?
Do his time and get out to start a career.
Then A&M. Otherwise, WP. All of the Services offer their academy grads more preferential military career opportunities while in uniform.
A. Solzhenitsyn
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my vote is for A&M as well, but, of course, I'm biased. my experience with West Point officers has not been good. state colleges in general just produce more well rounded and "normal" people/officers. West Pointers are always a little socially awkward, like that kid you grew up with who was home schooled. they're just off. and they tend to have a bit of a sense of superiority.

but all that said, it's clearly a great education at no cost from your pocket. hard to turn that down. and having West Point on that resume is going to be great in the civilian world. will open more doors nationwide than an Aggie ring. if he wants to do his time and get out, I think West Point is a good way to go.

full disclosure - I'm a Marine officer, so my natural instinct is to not like West Pointers regardless. maybe they're all actually really fantastic guys, and I'm the dick head.
SPullig
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Here's my two cents. What does he want to do? Does he want to do his commitment, get out and move to Texas? Or does he like another part of the country. Many of the guys I know went to WP and use the connections there in other parts of the country. If he wants to live in the NE, the Aggie Network there may not be as strong as WP.

Here's another factor. Granted it's been 13 years since I left school, but when I got to OBC, the WPers all wanted to go out drinking and party every night as they had no life in college. The ROTC guys were (mostly) all there to buckle down and get started on the military career.

All that said, both schools are still extremely good and can help you prepare for the military and other career fields. I've never regretted going to A&M and I haven't met anyone who has regretted WP (at least not the long run).
Fly Army 97
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While I am biased to the Corps at A&M, I would never tell anyone to shy away from an opportunity to go to West Point. I base my view on 20 years serving with West Point grads and becoming lifelong friends with some of them. I've also seen how many do in combat, training, and civilian life.

- Get past the stereotypes...I've met phenomenal WP officers I'd follow anywhere and serve with again.
- The socially awkward thing is overstated. Most of them have partied in NYC on their 'off' weekends. They just didn't get the whole college experience....not that big a concern once someone gets it out of their system.
- Don't underestimate their networking. Graduate schools also value a WP education. Most of them have no problem getting into a top tier program.
- They have as much tradition as A&M. A lot of it is tied to American history...they just don't bleed tradition like we do.
Fly Army 97
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"Here's another factor. Granted it's been 13 years since I left school, but when I got to OBC, the WPers all wanted to go out drinking and party every night as they had no life in college. The ROTC guys were (mostly) all there to buckle down and get started on the military career"

That pretty much sounds like every Aggie house I visited during our respective OBCs. I disagree with this statement as a generality - which is not to say this didn't exist other places.
2004FIGHTINTXAG
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The end result is the same for both Institutions...a commission and degree.

The difference is being in prison for four years or having the best of both worlds. You don't get to see hotties walking around in short shorts at WP.

Send him to Aggieland. Unless things have changed we always beat WP's a** in Ranger Challenge every year.
APHIS AG
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There is an arrogance that I got from West Pointers when I was on active duty and had a coworker whose sister went to it and it changed her for the worse.

To date, a West Point education does not get you the "preferential" treatment of years past.

Go to A&M, the friendships are life long.
AsburyAg
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Depending on his chosen career - get a Bachelors degree at WP and a Masters at A&M at some point.
Tango_Mike
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USMA, and it's not really close. I used to have the same "USMA isn't any good because..." until I lived there for 3.5 years as an instructor.

The socially awkward thing is a myth. I had kids over to my house on post 3-4 times per week. Invariably polite, eager, friendly. Plebes are the only ones post-bound on weekends, and they all go to their sponsors' houses. He'll, juniors and seniors can go drink at the Firstie Club every night.

There is a distribution of talent just like everywhere else, but it's narrower and shifted to the right. Amazing humans. Kids with 1600 SAT scores that are D1 athletes. There are studs in the Corps, but there are also a lot of s-bags too

The faculty are amazing. Nobody there is randomly assigned. It's an application and hand selection job. Most ROTC instructors are good people, but they're randomly assigned like any other billet. The Commandant's office at A&M are good people too, but they haven't been in a line unit in 20 years. And there is no tenure for civilians, so if they get squirrely they're gone

The Long Gray Line is a rock solid network. Even as a non-grad, I used it to get a job when I unexpectedly retired. I had 3 large offers in a week with nothing more than an intro phone interview. Every grad has had a similar experience, so they are very tight. I have nothing in common with a non-Corps Aggie other than school name

I used to hate USMA. After living there, if I was 17 again I'd make it my only choice, whether I planned to do 5 years or 35 years
hillcountryag86
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Tango_Mike said:

USMA, and it's not really close. I used to have the same "USMA isn't any good because..." until I lived there for 3.5 years as an instructor.

The socially awkward thing is a myth. I had kids over to my house on post 3-4 times per week. Invariably polite, eager, friendly. Plebes are the only ones post-bound on weekends, and they all go to their sponsors' houses. He'll, juniors and seniors can go drink at the Firstie Club every night.

There is a distribution of talent just like everywhere else, but it's narrower and shifted to the right. Amazing humans. Kids with 1600 SAT scores that are D1 athletes. There are studs in the Corps, but there are also a lot of s-bags too

The faculty are amazing. Nobody there is randomly assigned. It's an application and hand selection job. Most ROTC instructors are good people, but they're randomly assigned like any other billet. The Commandant's office at A&M are good people too, but they haven't been in a line unit in 20 years. And there is no tenure for civilians, so if they get squirrely they're gone

The Long Gray Line is a rock solid network. Even as a non-grad, I used it to get a job when I unexpectedly retired. I had 3 large offers in a week with nothing more than an intro phone interview. Every grad has had a similar experience, so they are very tight. I have nothing in common with a non-Corps Aggie other than school name

I used to hate USMA. After living there, if I was 17 again I'd make it my only choice, whether I planned to do 5 years or 35 years
Not close? Please. You are seriously going to suggest Texas A&M and the Corps don't come close? I served with Annapolis, West Point, and Air Force Academy grads. No doubt many were outstanding officers. But, as you were quick to point out A&M's numerous s-bags, you are a fool, an absolute fool, if you think the Academies don't produce a lot absolute waste-of-tax dollar elitist turds.

I agree the socially awkward label is unfair to academies. Their sheltered far more than the average college student. But so are A&M's cadets. They are still college kids and not boring robots. Labeling them socially inept is not accurate.

The Long Gray Line may be solid but you are out of your mind if you think it is superior to A&M's. Good grief. A&M's network, whether a cadet or not, is unmatched. Period.
A. Solzhenitsyn
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Quote:

The socially awkward thing is a myth.
it absolutely is not. especially amongst the company grades.
A. Solzhenitsyn
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Quote:

The Long Gray Line may be solid but you are out of your mind if you think it is superior to A&M's. Good grief. A&M's network, whether a cadet or not, is unmatched. Period.
it is superior to the Aggie network outside of the Texas/Louisiana/Okie/Arkie area, especially as you move north and east.
A. Solzhenitsyn
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I have nothing in common with a non-Corps Aggie other than school name
missed this gem, which is ridiculous.

lay off the west point Kool-Aid man. great school, great opportunity for some people, but not the end-all be-all.

sounds like the USMA is YOUR no-no place that got touched.
CT'97
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PearlJammin said:

West Point graduates are not what they used to be, or are perhaps inferior in some respects to A&M graduates?
These statements are not in line with my experiences while serving as an officer in the Army. A West Point degree is a great degree and in no way inferior to A&M nor are their officers inferior to A&M grads.

I'm an Aggie and glad I am. I bleed maroon as much as anyone but statements like this seem ignorant to me. The competition to get into all of the military academies means that to be academically successful their will always mean something simply because of the level of your peers.

As far as the quality or quarkyness that's very anecdotal. I saw good and bad from all commissioning sources. The West Pointers just stand out so people recognize their bad ones where as a bad ROTC officer is just another bad officer regardless of where he graduated.

The only major difference I see between West Point and A&M is that after 2 years at West Point if you decide being an officer in the Army isn't where you want to go your options are limited and transferring credits can be hard. If you are at A&M and decide to drop out of ROTC you keep working on the same degree and can even stay in the Corps with your buddies, so there is more flexibility in going to A&M.

If it were my son or daughter we would tour both campuses and if they got into either I would be happy with them going which ever way they felt strongest. At the end of the day their motivation to be successful is going to far out weight the degree hanging on the wall.




CT'97
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Quote:

Here's another factor. Granted it's been 13 years since I left school, but when I got to OBC, the WPers all wanted to go out drinking and party every night as they had no life in college. The ROTC guys were (mostly) all there to buckle down and get started on the military career.
My experience was the opposite. My Infantry OBC class had a lot of West Pointers and they went out and partied about like everyone else. They did tend to group together more because they all knew each other where as the ROTC and OCS guys were from all over. But it was an ROTC guy who got caught coming onto post drunk for morning PT, it was a group of ROTC guys who got busted getting into a bar fight with some ranger bat guys on Victory drive and it was a National Guard OCS grad who was honor grad from the class.
SPullig
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We had a ROTC guy do that as well. Again, that was my experience. Guess it goes to show that your experience may differ...

I loved my time at A&M and wouldn't change it for anything. I'm sure that WPers would look back and say the same thing afterward.
Rabid Cougar
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I had two underclassmen who left the Corps as sophomores and went to Annapolis (started all over ). They did it to better their chances at aviation and both became Marine Aviators. I also had underclassmen who also became Navy and Marine Aviators after graduating A&M so not sure there is a difference.

Could that be something that perspective students to consider in choosing between the service academies and A&M? You get a better shot at more desirable postings? They are not called "Ring Knockers" for nothing.
A. Solzhenitsyn
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Rabid Cougar said:

I had two underclassmen who left the Corps as sophomores and went to Annapolis (started all over ). They did it to better their chances at aviation and both became Marine Aviators. I also had underclassmen who also became Navy and Marine Aviators after graduating A&M so not sure there is a difference.

Could that be something that perspective students to consider in choosing between the service academies and A&M? You get a better shot at more desirable postings? They are not called "Ring Knockers" for nothing.
I graduated from A&M with a 2.5, I wasn't in the Corps of Cadets, and I got a flight school slot. it has about 10% to do with school and performance and about 90% to do with what the military needs at any given moment and if you meet the minimum requirements. I probably wouldn't even get accepted to Marine OCS today, let alone get a pilot slot. needs of the Corps.

if there's no war and very little need for pilots, and all other things being equal, being an Academy grad probably gives you an edge, so depending on your age, your underclassmen may or may not have helped their cause.

but definitely graduating from one of the Academies helps you start off as a young officer with a better network.
Ordhound04
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What does he want to major in?

STEM or business I would say A&M hands down. Especially if he would like to have his post military career in Texas.
HollywoodBQ
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If you get a chance to go to a Service Academy you go - period. Recognition, opportunity, cost (free), status, networking, etc. Those are all in favor of the Academies.

Texas A&M is great, don't get me wrong but, until Johnny Football put us on the map, most folks outside of Texas had never heard of us. Everybody's heard of West Point. They've been around a bit longer.

As mentioned, if you're a terrible Officer, the fact that you went to West Point is going to magnify that because everybody knows that you had every advantage on your side. If you're going to be a terrible officer, you probably won't survive the ROTC program at A&M.

Another angle as pointed out earlier - if you fail out of West Point, you can always try again at A&M. You can't do the reverse. I have a HS classmate who went to the USNA and failed out after 3 semesters. He transferred to A&M, started over and wound up becoming a Battalion Commander in the Aggie Corps. After graduating from the NROTC program, he wound up serving a career in the Navy.

More recently, I met a kid who was one of my kid's "Brother Rats" at VMI. He did the George S. Patton Jr. route and went to VMI and then after the "Ratline" transferred to West Point once a slot became available. I can't imagine completing the entry level "training" at VMI and still believing that West Point had so much more to offer that you'd transfer there but, people will if they can.

Lastly, for the anecdotal section. When I went through the Armor School at Fort Knox, we had the goat from West Point in the class ahead of me. I don't know if it was him but, it was definitely a West Pointer who threw up in the Officer's Club Van after a hard night of partying. At least in my era in the Aggie Corps (I know this has changed) we learned how to handle our liquor.
bigtruckguy3500
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We had a fish in my outfit transfer to USNA after fish year. I thought he was stupid for it. I used to be a big advocate for A&M before anyone else. But, in all honesty, I agree that a service academy is something you probably shouldn't turn down under most circumstances. Unless you really need to be close to home in Texas, WP doesn't offer a particular course of study you're interested in, or there is really some other big compelling reason to stay here, go there. I'm not going to say they'll make you a better officer, but your opportunities for different types of training are going to be way higher there than you'd get at A&M. They just have more funding to send you to do cool stuff (from what I understand).

You will likely not develop the "marry you and bury you" friends that you'd get at A&M, but you'll still develop close friends.

Rabid Cougar
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A. Solzhenitsyn said:

Rabid Cougar said:

I had two underclassmen who left the Corps as sophomores and went to Annapolis (started all over ). They did it to better their chances at aviation and both became Marine Aviators. I also had underclassmen who also became Navy and Marine Aviators after graduating A&M so not sure there is a difference.

Could that be something that perspective students to consider in choosing between the service academies and A&M? You get a better shot at more desirable postings? They are not called "Ring Knockers" for nothing.
I graduated from A&M with a 2.5, I wasn't in the Corps of Cadets, and I got a flight school slot. it has about 10% to do with school and performance and about 90% to do with what the military needs at any given moment and if you meet the minimum requirements. I probably wouldn't even get accepted to Marine OCS today, let alone get a pilot slot. needs of the Corps.

if there's no war and very little need for pilots, and all other things being equal, being an Academy grad probably gives you an edge, so depending on your age, your underclassmen may or may not have helped their cause.

but definitely graduating from one of the Academies helps you start off as a young officer with a better network.
1984 after Top Gun came out every Swinging D**k wanted to be a F-14 Pilot. We did have a frog from NMMI come in as butt in '84. He was abused but survived. He was the last person in the outfit I would have ever picked to become an F-14 pilot.... and he did. As you said.... the needs at the time.
2004FIGHTINTXAG
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Results are the same. A commission and a degree. I prefer not to be in prison from 18-22 years old.

As far as schools while in school. Plenty of guys in the Corps go to Airborne and Air Assault School during the summer. If they don't then go after commissioning. Not a big deal. A monkey can graduate from Airborne.
Jock 07
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I'm just gonna drop this here

neutics
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USMA grad here with a masters from Mays, and also a former Army ROTC instructor in the Trigon for 2 years and also that burnt orange school for another 3 years.

Good arguments on both sides and I'll try not to re-hash those here.

Army ROTC classes at A&M suffer due to the sheer number of Cadets that are not committed (or contracted). This is especially true for the MS1&2 classes. While our band is incredible the majority of them have no aspiration of becoming a military officer, yet are forced to take military science classes for two years. As an instructor my MSII class was 160 Cadets across 6 sections...not conducive to getting to know students so easier for those less motivated to get lost.

West Point classes (especially the core curriculum) suffers in part from less qualified instructors. Most are senior Captains or Majors with a master's degree in their subject. The ratio of Phd's (civilian and uniformed) is very low compared to most Tier 1 Universities. Obviously the tradeoff is small class sizes, incredible availability and what I would consider an ideal mentorship environment. Only when I started grad school at A&M did I realize what was missing, though certainly some tenure track instructors are not as effective as they once were.

At t.u. I would often tell my students they had the best of both worlds from my perspective - an excellent education, great ROTC program, and the ability to still be a 'real' college student. Learning to balance so many priorities prepared them to be very well-rounded officers in my opinion, whereas as others have noted many of my USMA classmates left not knowing how to do routine things because everything was done for us there (laundry, food, and not having to worry too much about money or side jobs).

Branching - USMA receives a disproportionate allocation of the combat arms slots. I sat through a 1/2 day seminar in early March about exactly this and the faculty from ROTC programs across the country are obviously not happy about it, but that's the way it has been and will be for the foreseeable future. If I could post the slides here I would as the numbers do not lie, and my experience at A&M & t.u. validates how hard it is for even the best Cadets there to get their top choice. At West Point if you finished top half of your class you had your pick of any combat arms branch, even Aviation (my experience, though this was before they started waiving eyesight).

Network - no comparison. Wife is an '03 A&M grad and is the real deal - involved in Hospitality and eager to talk to anyone with a ring. Yet she agrees the power and breadth of the West Point alumni network far outweighs the sheer mass of A&M's network. Again anecdotal, but my efforts to secure internships and a job through A&M's network were good enough to get an interview for the most part, but having West Point on my resume was what they wanted to talk about. Every job I've had is a result of the willingness of someone in the 'Long Grey Line' to go out of their way to not only get me the interview, but give me a leg up and often the benefit of the doubt.

Trust your son will make the right decision for him, though I wouldn't be so quick to discount West Point since he is planning on only serving the minimum 4 years (USMA is 5) as this certainly has much longer-term implications. My classmates that were set on getting out ended up staying (myself included) and have succeeded in Special Forces.
A. Solzhenitsyn
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Good post.
A. Solzhenitsyn
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Jock 07 said:

I'm just gonna drop this here



That guy has such a punchable face.
PanzerAggie06
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This is not remotely close. Seriously, not even playing the same game. In todays world a degree from West Point is akin to an Ivy League education. The job prospects for a person with a WP degree are impressive. Its anecdotal but a bud of mine from my Army days who graduated from WP was accepted to the MBA program at Harvard with a 2.7 undergrad GPA. He was flat told by the admissions board that it was his WP degree that got him in. A 2.7 from A&M would not have gotten him in.

In regards to comparing the two schools from a purely "preparing you to be an officer" prospective I'd say its a wash. I worked with A&M officers and WP officers over my time in the Army and I didn't notice in perceptible difference in the skills of the two groups. However, the long grey line has quite the reach in the Army that the Corps can only dream about. Being an academy grad definitely seems to help with career progression and assignments.

On the positive side for A&M you'll get to live an actual college experience while at WP you're most definitely coddled and isolated. One thing I did notice about many WP grads was a tendency of many of them to be somewhat immature in that they still had the "lets party" mentality. I always wrote this off to them not being able to sow their wild oats in college.

With all that if your son has a chance to attend WP I'd steer him in that direction. The short term implications of this, in regards to his Army career, are strongly positive as are the long term implications.
Agvet12
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Go to the service academy. End of thread.

Even if they decide the service isn't for them, the service academy holds weight more across the US than regional institutions in general.
PaulSimonsGhost
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I considered A&M and the Naval Academy. If you're going career you have to be honest about the preference shown to Academy grads in choice of duty. If your boy is an alpha among alphas then go with A&M. I saw a lot of studs from the Corps get their first choice of duty upon commision. If he's not motivated for the military life then West Point would suck. But an Academy ring is a special thing and a shot at one is not to be over looked.

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