What the HELL is happening to the US Navy?

3,374 Views | 21 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by NavyAg22
daryl gersch
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AG
Is what going on a joke? or are there real problems in the Command and Structure? Or are we being attacked?
DogCo84
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AG
As the Dad of a currently deployed DDG Sailor, I'd like to know the same thing.
zip04
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AG
How about we wait and see what comes of the investigation before we jump to conclusions. Based on where USS John S. McCain was hit, she would have been the stand-on vessel if they were the only two vessels on the open water (and yes, I get that some fault always lies with both ships because they have the ultimate responsibility of avoiding a collision). However, it isn't always that simple. Especially considering they were in an area that is known for heavy traffic.
Aggies Revenge
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AG
Passed through that area almost 20 years ago today. Fog and high traffic. I was amazed at how close ships got to each other. Even more amazed at some of the ships that towered over us, and I was on an LHA. I can easily see how small mistakes there result into huge problems.
lb3
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AG
zip04
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AG
If you think civilian ships don't make mistakes, run aground, collide, or have an allision, you are sadly mistaken. Heck, we don't even know the results of this collision yet. For all we know, the civilian ship could have been at fault, especially based on the point of impact on MCCAIN.
Pro Sandy
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AG
CNO ordered all fleets to conduct an operational stand down and stood up a task force to review training to Sailors going to Japan.

Aggie1
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AG
I have read several articles today where the Navy is investigating whether or not their navigation equipment is being hacked. Something tells me this may have legs...
bigtruckguy3500
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There are still people standing watch physically looking for contacts and radar systems would be difficult to hack, and I'd imagine they'd be able to tell if they're being jammed.
Aggie1
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AG
https://www.google.com/search?q=the+Navy+is+investigating+whether+or+not+their+navigation+equipment+is+being+hacked.&oq=the+Navy+is+investigating+whether+or+not+their+navigation+equipment+is+being+hacked.&aqs=chrome..69i57.1404j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Jock 07
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bigtruckguy3500 said:

There are still people standing watch physically looking for contacts and radar systems would be difficult to hack, and I'd imagine they'd be able to tell if they're being jammed.
jamming /= spoofing
Pro Sandy
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Aggie1 said:

I have read several articles today where the Navy is investigating whether or not their navigation equipment is being hacked. Something tells me this may have legs...
I think they are just being all inclusive in the investigation.
45-70Ag
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AG
WSJ has this
Probably behind a paywall

[url]Investigators Repeatedly Warned Navy Ahead of Collisions https://www.wsj.com/articles/investigators-repeatedly-warned-navy-1503703292[/url]


Quote:

Congressional investigators and military officials warned repeatedly about overworked sailors, shortened training schedules and budget cuts in the years leading up to two fatal collisions involving U.S. Navy ships, government auditors, lawmakers and Pentagon officials said.
Endo Ag
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zip04 said:

How about we wait and see what comes of the investigation before we jump to conclusions. Based on where USS John S. McCain was hit, she would have been the stand-on vessel if they were the only two vessels on the open water (and yes, I get that some fault always lies with both ships because they have the ultimate responsibility of avoiding a collision). However, it isn't always that simple. Especially considering they were in an area that is known for heavy traffic.
I was never Navy, and the largest boat I've ever Captained fit on a two axle trailer, but the McCain (by Wikipedia sourcing) measures 9,000 tons and can do 30 kts. The MV Alnic is anywhere from 30,000 to over 50,000 tons and was reportedly full.

Doesn't the burden of avoiding a collision rest with the more maneuverable ship when displacements are that skewed?
zip04
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AG
Depends on the situation. Is it an overtaking situation, is it a crossing situation in which the smaller vessel is to the starboard of the larger one, etc. In this case, the collision occurred at the beginning/end of a traffic separation scheme in one of the busiest shipping lanes throughout the world.
DogCo84
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AG
Some interesting discussion of possible contributing factors in a three part series by retired USN Capt. Kevin Eyer in the August USNI Proceedings. Links below. I'd be interested in y'all's thoughts on his series.


Collisions Part 1: What are the Root Causes

Collisions Part 2: Operational Pause

Collisions Part 3: Maintenance
Ulysses90
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AG
Maybe today's Navy is just not very good at driving ships

Quote:

In the wake of two fatal collisions of Navy warships with commercial vessels, current and former senior surface warfare officers are speaking out, saying today's Navy suffers from a disturbing problem: The SWO community is just not very good at driving ships.

The two collisions and a total of 17 sailors lost at sea this summer have raised concerns about whether this generation of surface fleet officers lack the basic core competency of their trade.

The problem is years in the making. Now, the current generation of officers rising into command-level billets lacks the skills, training, education and experience needed to operate effectively and safely at sea, according to current and former officers interviewed by Navy Times.


"There is a systemic cultural wasteland in the SWO community right now, especially at the department head level," said retired Navy Capt. Rick Hoffman, who commanded the cruiser Hue City and the frigate DeWert and who, after retirement, taught SWOs ship handling in Mayport.

"We do not put a premium on being good mariners," Hoffman said. "We put a premium on being good inspection takers and admin weenies."

Quote:

For nearly 30 years, all new surface warfare officers spent their first six months in uniform at the Surface Warfare Officer's School in Newport, Rhode Island, learning the theory behind driving ships and leading sailors as division officers.

But that changed in 2003. The Navy decided to eliminate the "SWOS Basic" school and simply send surface fleet officers out to sea to learn on the job. The Navy did that mainly to save money, and the fleet has suffered severely for it, said retired Cmdr. Kurt Lippold.

The SWO community might reflect on the lessons learned generations ago by aviators. Flight schools were created by the survivors of the trial and error method of learning to fly. Flight schools continue to flourish because there is strong evidence that formal schools of instruction are very effective for teaching someone how to safely operate an aircraft. It's a stretch but just maybe worth pondering.


https://www.link.com/about/pages/history.aspx
Quote:

It took a year and a half for Ed to complete construction of his pilot trainer. Finally, in the early part of 1929 the trainer was ready.

The pilot trainer resembled a toy airplane from the outside, with short wooden wings and fuselage mounted on a universal joint. Organ bellows from the Link factory, driven by an electric pump, made the trainer pitch and roll as the pilot worked the controls.

The cockpit was equipped with standard aircraft controls and later modifications introduced radio aids and gauges to tell the pilot if he was flying level.

During the 1930s, Ed chose to open the Link Flying School with his brother. They operated the flying school after-hours in the family plant, offering individuals a guaranteed "learn to fly" flat charge of $85. The school did well until the full force of the Depression made flying lessons an extra most people did without.

Ed's big break, however, was soon to come.

Mail Call
Ed's breakthrough in demonstrating his pilot trainer finally came when the government contracted with the Army Air Corps to start carrying the U.S. mail. This experiment unfortunately would soon meet with disaster, primarily because Army Air Corps pilots had been trained to fly by watching the ground.

During their first week of mail service Army Air Corps pilots experienced extremely hazardous weather. Tragically, nearly a dozen pilots were killed due to the bad weather they encountered. This tragedy prompted the Army Air Corps to take a closer look at Link's invention that trained pilots to fly by instruments.

On a foggy, misty day in 1934, a group of Army officers awaited Ed's arrival in Newark, New Jersey. Ed was flying in from Binghamton, New York. The officers, convinced that he couldn't make it in such soupy weather, were about to leave. Just as they were about to leave they could hear the sound of an approaching airplane. Within a minute's time an aircraft circled the field and touched down on the runway. It was Ed Link...he had flown in on instruments and demonstrated that effective flight was possible even during adverse weather conditions.

The military officials were sold on the promise training to fly by instruments could offer and, shortly thereafter, the Army Air Corps ordered six of his trainers for $3,500 a piece. By the time the order was completed other orders started coming in and Link Aviation Devices, Inc. was formed to meet the increased trainer production demand.

The company expanded rapidly, in spite of some facility setbacks in the mid 1930s, and during World War II the ANT-18 Basic Instrument Trainer, known to tens of thousands of fledging pilots as the Blue Box, was standard equipment at every air training school in the United States and Allied nations. In fact, during the war years Link produced over 10,000 Blue Boxes, turning one out every 45 minutes.

It's from this auspicious beginning that Link launched a company that over the next several decades would come to dominate the military training and simulation industry.
zip04
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AG
The fact the 6 month "SWO Basic" school went away is irrelevant in these collisions because the first year group to not go to RI for that course has not taken command yet, aside from early command of a PC or MCM.

The greater issue is that our maintenance phase consistently gets extended into our Basic Training phase and the ships receive waivers or condense their unit level training evolutions.
CT'97
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zip04 said:

The fact the 6 month "SWO Basic" school went away is irrelevant in these collisions because the first year group to not go to RI for that course has not taken command yet, aside from early command of a PC or MCM.

The greater issue is that our maintenance phase consistently gets extended into our Basic Training phase and the ships receive waivers or condense their unit level training evolutions.
But the officers standing the watches didn't attend SWO basic. So I think it definitely would apply.

Ultimately the problems are a stacking of failures/decisions that lead to the ultimate failure. Rarely are problems this large the result of a single failure.
zip04
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The Officer's standing Officer of the Deck would have had experience standing the watch, would have attended BDOC (two month SWO training), and would have had to have passed an oral board by the CO. It isn't like these OODs graduated college and then were given the keys to the ship. I was in one of the few year groups where we did not receive the 6 month basic course or the 2 month BDOC, but I am a very good shiphandler because I had a CO that required us to learn how to drive using standard rudder commands, not the lazy "come right steady on course ###" method.

The 6 month course was classroom training and only covered navigation for a small portion of the training. We have always been a service that learns more through OJT, which emphasizes the importance of unit level training.

The new LCS training pipeline is completely different though. Our OODs and JOODs receive months of hands on training driving a completely realistic (form, fit, and feel) simulator, and attend Train to Qualify and Train to Certify courses taught in the same simulators, along with other key watchstanders. I think we will see this training is very efficient for our future sailors.
RDCAG
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No ship I took the conn or OOD of, ever had a collision at sea.
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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AG
Everybody on watch ! What were they watching ?????????????????????????????
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
NavyAg22
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Our politically correct navy spends more time on transgender training than we do on operational training. Undermanned, overworked, and undertrained sailors manning these watches.
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