I inherited a kitchen table from my grandparents that was pretty beat up and scuffed. So, I'm in the process of sanding and refinishing the table, leafs, legs, etc. We haven't decided on a stain yet as we are looking for a bench to go with it and will try to match whatever bench stain/color we find.

However, my question is about the finish. In the before picture it is glossy and we like that for our dinner table. What type of finish do I put on it after the stain to get the gloss/smoothness?

before:


After Sanding:

Gilligan said:

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I would have tried Howard's Restore-a-Finish before sanding and see if you liked it.

I will defer to Agrams at this point.

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Thanks all...I also look forward to agrams input

We sanded the table because the current stain doesn't fit with our other furniture/style. And that initial picture doesn't show it well, as I had already stripped a layer off, but it was stained like someone left a hot pan on it and painted/scratched the hell out of the finish. Decided it would be easier for me to just get an orbital sander and take it all off and start with a fresh stain/finish.

You're definitely looking for the right poster (agrams).

In the past, I've had some things I made that I wanted to have a glossier finish and it usually just involves more coats of a polycrylic or polyurethane...apply, light sanding, apply, etc. After several coats you'll start getting a higher gloss.

most people have the right idea on the finish. it's just a function of coats. I've found not all wipe on oil finishes are created equal though.

the wood appears to be cherry. it's up to you if you want to stain it, but it's a pretty good wood for staining and takes stain pretty well. I typically spray a coat of dewaxed shellac after I stain, then do the wipe on varnish, but you can do the wipe on finish on top of the stain, just be aware the varnish will pull some of the stain oil, hence why I like to do the shellac. the shellac also gives a head start on build up. without shellac, for a good build you are sometimes looking at 4-5 coats. with shellac it cuts 2-3 coats oft to get the same build.

one of the better finishes for wipe on I like is waterlox. it builds well and is durable. minwax wipe on poly is OK, but it is thin and can take more coats.

agrams said:

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most people have the right idea on the finish. it's just a function of coats. I've found not all wipe on oil finishes are created equal though.

the wood appears to be cherry. it's up to you if you want to stain it, but it's a pretty good wood for staining and takes stain pretty well. I typically spray a coat of dewaxed shellac after I stain, then do the wipe on varnish, but you can do the wipe on finish on top of the stain, just be aware the varnish will pull some of the stain oil, hence why I like to do the shellac. the shellac also gives a head start on build up. without shellac, for a good build you are sometimes looking at 4-5 coats. with shellac it cuts 2-3 coats oft to get the same build.

one of the better finishes for wipe on I like is waterlox. it builds well and is durable. minwax wipe on poly is OK, but it is thin and can take more coats.

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Thanks so much! I'll post the finished product when I get time to knock it out.

Nm

Update:

I have a questions after the initial stain. In the top picture are the legs with some odd discoloring after staining. Prior to this I sanded the previous finish off using 80, 120, 180, 220 grit. I cleaned the leg(s) and applied the stain which resulted in the darker spots. Is that just imperfections in the wood or did I miss something while sanding?

The second picture is of a table leaf. No big spots like on the leg and it seems to have turned out pretty well. My questions before I move on is do you sand after staining before applying the shellac and finish?

I've seen some websites say to sand after staining and others say not to. What is your advice?


I'm working in stages so I've just done what you see here. The actual table will be last.

Thanks for your help/advice?

Looks like you didn't get all of the previous finish off and need to sand and start over. Good way to check while sanding is just to dampen the wood or use alcohol to check. What stain did you use and did you use a conditioner?

On finishes, I know agrams has provided his input, but I really like General Finishes products. I've had good luck on several projects with Arm-R-Seal in varying sheens.

https://generalfinishes.com/wood-finishes-retail/oil-based-topcoats/arm-r-seal-oil-based-topcoat

Aggietaco said:

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Looks like you didn't get all of the previous finish off and need to sand and start over. Good way to check while sanding is just to dampen the wood or use alcohol to check. What stain did you use and did you use a conditioner?

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Thanks for the input. You can see in my initial post there are the legs on the floor. They don't have any of the discolorization that showed up in the stain. And I did wet them to clean off the dust before staining (and I let that dry over night too) and didn't see or notice the large area in the photo.

I did not use a conditioner and used Minwax Oil-Based Dark Walnut Semi-Transparent Interior Stain

As a previous post stated, you likely need to start over on sanding with the legs. The dark spots may be previous finish, however, it could also be some water spots. Where did the water come from? Likely sweat. If you are sanding and you have some sweat on your hands or arms, and touch sanded wood, especially cherry or maple, that little bit of moisture will swell the wood and therefore drink up more stain (more surface area) and appear darker.

You also have some 'swirlies' or pigtails from your sander. While sanding with an orbital type sander, dust gets trapped in clumps between the surface and the paper, creating the marks. After sanding with the machine, put a grippy glove on, and hand sand with (with the grain of course) 120-150, maxing out at 180. Use a bright light on a severe angle to see any imperfections. Going any higher in grit is only going to polish the wood and make stain penetrate less.

1988PA-Aggie said:

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As a previous post stated, you likely need to start over on sanding with the legs. The dark spots may be previous finish, however, it could also be some water spots. Where did the water come from? Likely sweat. If you are sanding and you have some sweat on your hands or arms, and touch sanded wood, especially cherry or maple, that little bit of moisture will swell the wood and therefore drink up more stain (more surface area) and appear darker.

You also have some 'swirlies' or pigtails from your sander. While sanding with an orbital type sander, dust gets trapped in clumps between the surface and the paper, creating the marks. After sanding with the machine, put a grippy glove on, and hand sand with (with the grain of course) 120-150, maxing out at 180. Use a bright light on a severe angle to see any imperfections. Going any higher in grit is only going to polish the wood and make stain penetrate less.

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Man, as soon as I read the part about sweat I immediately thought that has to be it. I started this during some very hot days and remember sweating and wiping drips off the wood and leaning with my forearm on it which was veered in sweat.. oops.

Thanks for the heads up about the swirlies. I see them too so I'll go back and work on those. I haven't stained the table top yet because I wanted to get things right on the legs and figured I'd have to go back on some things. I can make sure to sand the swirlies out on that for sure.

Thanks for the help from everyone!

You should be using a pre conditioner before staining. I use it for all woods if I'm staining. For most hardwoods, I don't like stains. As for finish, if I want it perfect, then I'm spraying in in my shop. If I want it to look like it didn't come out of a cookie cutter facotry, then I do it by hand. I prefer by hand. When refinishing, I try not to remove dents and dings. I started doing that when refinishing and repairing gun stocks. The finish can be stripped and it can be sanded without removing the years of hunting goodness.

update:

Can anyone answer this question:

I've seen some websites say to sand after staining and others say not to. What is the board's advice before I apply the finish?

1988PA-Aggie said:

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As a previous post stated, you likely need to start over on sanding with the legs. The dark spots may be previous finish, however, it could also be some water spots. Where did the water come from? Likely sweat. If you are sanding and you have some sweat on your hands or arms, and touch sanded wood, especially cherry or maple, that little bit of moisture will swell the wood and therefore drink up more stain (more surface area) and appear darker.

You also have some 'swirlies' or pigtails from your sander. While sanding with an orbital type sander, dust gets trapped in clumps between the surface and the paper, creating the marks. After sanding with the machine, put a grippy glove on, and hand sand with (with the grain of course) 120-150, maxing out at 180. Use a bright light on a severe angle to see any imperfections. Going any higher in grit is only going to polish the wood and make stain penetrate less.

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Pigtails can also be from a hard grit in the paper. If you sand the concrete floor a bit, sometimes that hard grit can be knocked down enough (from sanding directly on the garage concrete floor, not the rough driveway) that it doesn't leave anymore pigtails. Dust can be removed from the sand paper with a cleaning stick.

First to AgCW, yes, too low of a grit for the purpose intended, or poor quality 'sand' paper can result in pigtails. Some of the paper backed typical box store paper is poor quality while being fairly expensive. For years I have used a mesh 'sand paper' (Mirka brand called Abranet). It is actually cloth backed and usually sticks to most velcro sander bottoms. It is far more efficient at removing dust due to it being a mesh as opposed to a handful of holes. Using a vacuum attachment also helps considerably.

Back to Dumpster...I would not recommend sanding after staining. What is stain? It is pigment suspended in a solvent. You apply stain, the pigment stays, solvent evaporates. You then sand....? All you will do is remove pigment and you will end up with blotchy, lighter tone version of what you are going for. The only time to sand after staining (besides if you f*** it up) is if you are doing a special finish, perhaps with an open grain wood like oak/ash and you want the open grain to be highlighted in a different color. But that is getting way off track. You have cherry, a closed grain wood that is moderate in hardness. Try to keep your sanding as uniform as possible (change your paper on a somewhat regular basis), progress through your grits, nice straight sanding motion (by hand), etc. I would not recommend sanding over 180-220. After that you are merely polishing the wood and the wood will accept less pigment. (The one exception is when sanding endgrain of hardwood....due to its porosity, I will sand to 280-320, you can go across the grain at that grit, to polish it so it doesn't drink up so much stain and end up really dark.)

When it comes to staining, unless you are a pro, you want to get the color right in a one-coat application. If you need more guidance on staining/finishing, please reply.

Dumpster Fire said:

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update:

Can anyone answer this question:

I've seen some websites say to sand after staining and others say not to. What is the board's advice before I apply the finish?

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I only sand after staining if I need to remove stain because of some error and even then it's very case by case. Some woods take stain deeper than others and you may not be able to remove it.

Do not sand if you don't need to. Stain is only required more than once to achieve various richness in color. If you condition properly and let the stain set for a reasonable amount of time, you may not even need to restain.

Thank you both for not only answering the question but providing guidance and advice. I have already gone back over the table with 180 sandpaper in straight uniform passes trying not to polish the table too much. I wasn't aware about the end grain issue and will be careful with that.In the pictures above it only has two coats of stain on it because we wanted it darker.

I am going to finish the legs/leafs and then move on to staining the table top and will report back with photos on the progress/finished product. I have our raw wood benches being delivered on Thursday so I'll work on them as well and hopefully have a finished set by the next two weeks or so.

great job!

As a side note for all the woodworkers here, I've had really good results using Odie's Oil. Really easy to use. wipe on, buff out. Super forgiving. You got a small area that needs more sanding because of glue showing through? Just sand it and then put more Odies Oil on it. Blends perfectly together.

Can't really do that with any other finish unless you're getting into Agrams territory where you're building varnish.

Finishing of wood can be classified into two distinct forms...film vs penetrating.

Film finishes are your urethanes, lacquers...paint too. Its adhesion is a mechanical bond, it grabs onto the microscopic texture of the material you are applying it to. You can get a 'build' by applying multiple coats. Some materials like conversion varnish has a limit to the number of coats and could create cracking. But overall, 3-4 coats gets you a decent build. Wipe-on polys of course, being that you are wiping a lot away, have a limit to the build. Sanding in between to level the previous coat is usually necessary, don't polish with too fine a paper or else you will reduce the ability for the next coat to bond. And the number of coats you put on one side, you should do the same to the other to reduce possible warping.

Advantages: good protection, mostly water resistant (water proof is your marine grades), varying gloss levels, many are capable of spraying if viscosity is in the range.
Disadvantages: tough to 'touch up', need to deal with fumes, dust can be an issue unless buffing after curing

The other is penetrating or oil finishes. Pure tung oil is one of the oldest finishes, some newer oils have some varnish in them to get a bit of a build. Watco and Waterlox are examples of this. Oil finishes bond and protect through a chemical reaction with the wood. You can put almost an unlimited number of coats on initially, 4-6 coats frequently, but 8-10 coats is not unheard of. You may need to reapply over time depending on usage.

Advantages: easy to apply, easy to maintain, easy to touch up or redo completely, good water resistance depending on type, no sanding in between coats, usually less fumes, usually a soft feel
Disadvantages: if stained wood is the surface, and you are wiping on the oil, the process will remove some of the color, so you may have to stain darker (tough to get uniform results) or best is to spray on the oil, also tough to get a higher gloss finish without serious buffing, satin level is common.

One thing many expect (some of my customers...sigh), is for the finish to protect from anything. If you hit or scratch anything hard enough, you will damage it. If you are doing something from scratch, you need the wood underneath to be a species that will help with the protection. Don't expect a countertop surface made of a soft wood, but with the best finish, to protect. Your film finish protects from scratches and liquids, but not dents, that's the material underneath. You need to use both the material and finish for the usage.

Finishing is a huge topic. This short novel just scratches the surface (pun intentional). There are techniques and adjusting that can be discussed for a long time. Ever-increasing laws about chemicals, finishing also becomes more challenging. Finishing in a factory setting with automation is far better than a spray setup in your home shop. But you pay the price. DIY people can get good finishes with quality materials and good technique, and be fairly inexpensive.

That's it for now, just typing over the morning coffee.