Wood fireplace - what am I missing?

2,988 Views | 19 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by ravingfans
1st Generation Ag
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I have lived in three houses now with fireplaces, but I have never made a fire in any of them. I'm told they aren't worth the effort because they end up increasing the heating costs during the winter. The heated air goes up the chimney and, through convection, just draws the cooler air from all over the house so you don't even feel warm.

Makes sense from what I learned in school about heat & cold, but I wonder - why even have a chimney if that's so? Chimneys have been around since the middle ages, when they were an innovation for dealing with the cold during the 'little ice age' (the late middle ages were much colder than the preceding centuries). Prior to their invention you had to build a fire inside the house if you wanted one, and the smoke would have to ventilate through the windows and door. It must have been a net benefit; people wouldn't have built them into their houses if the net effect was to make the house colder. You can't fool people who live their whole lives in austere environments, and they have no tolerance for nonsense.

What are we doing wrong? Is there a right way to use a wood fire in the fireplace that is a net benefit to the occupants? Am I missing something?
sleepybeagle
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AG
Quote:

...if the net effect was to make the house colder.
Building a fire in your fireplace doesn't make the house colder. Yes - with typical fireplaces a lot of heat is lost up the chimney. I've read that for every $100 you spend on firewood you get only $10-$20 worth of heat. However, there are very efficient wood burning fireplaces available if that's important to you.

All that being said - the main reason to use a fireplace is to create a different type of heat : )



dubi
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AG
We had a huge corner fireplace in our last house and used a sledgehammer to make it go away.
PFG
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Bc burning wood is awesome.

Bc sitting in front of a fireplace is awesome.

Most homes I've been in have fireplaces that are raised up. A floor hearth makes much more sense. Get your chair close, pour a drink, and enjoy.
zaab
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Agree that the actual fireplace is awesome for the reasons listed above. No direct knowledge or reasons about having fireplaces throughout history but my guess is the actual houses have changed as we have become more prosperous. I have family back in Wales that have fireplaces in their houses that heat them up nicely. These houses have 6-7 ft ceilings, have very small rooms and may have a fireplace in in several rooms. That would seem to be able to heat the house more effectively .
maddiedou
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If you build the fire hot enough it does warm up the room and if you have low ceilings turn your ac to on and it will pull some of the heat into the house.

Now if you are buying wood not as much fun if you are counting the dollars as they burn up but i cut my own and split Love it
maddiedou
Martin Q. Blank
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Modern fireplaces are built to pull the oxygen from the outside instead of the house.
toolshed
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Older fireplaces (modern age and prior) that are full masonry brick and or stone absorb a lot of heat into the brick and radiate that heat into the room and the surrounding house.

Modern fireplace inserts (thinner sheet metal boxes with stamped ceramic brick plates) still radiate some heat into the house but probably not near as much as the full masonry.

I know several people in Texas that use a fireplace, wood or gas burning, even the inserts, as their primary heat source and take pride in the fact that they don't operate their central heat. A lot of fireplaces have a vent at the top that also lets heated air from the unit back into the room as well. Some even have fans to force heated air into the room, though those are less common these days, as far as I've seen.

I think the main reason they get installed is out of tradition. There are a lot of people that are weird and don't enjoy burning stuff, so their fireplace doesn't get used. But if I build a house and don't put a fireplace in, buyers complain. So might as well keep putting them in.
Gary79Ag
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Lived in 3 houses over my lifetime that had fireplaces.

First house had a traditional wood burning fireplace, and yes, the bulk of the heat went up the chimney. Had a wood rack/grill with a fan to circulate and blow heat into the room bt was every inefficient.

Second house had a traditional WBF as well, but I purchased an energy efficient fireplace insert with an enclosed firebox and a blower to circulate the heat into the room. Significant improvement, but I did even better by installing an HVAC air return in the ceiling directly in front of the FP. I turned the HVAC system fan on its low speed and it circulated the heat throughout the entire house.

Third house...exactly the same with exception that the home has a 4-zone HVAC system and the firebox can hold enough wood to burn between 12-14 hours if fully loaded. I can control where the heat warms the house via the various zones as needed. Couldn't be happier...heating the entire house with it now as I type this response. The insert lets me control the amount of heat it generates, as it is extremely efficient and I do not use the heater at all when I have a fire going, like all of this week so far!
ReelDeal
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in the old days, houses were very drafty. Windows were not sealed like they are today; thresholds were terrible; walls had no insulation and air infiltrated through easily. Imagine having a fire outside in freezing conditions. The fire is lifesaving, but at a very inefficient rate/ fuel consumed. In the old houses, air was going to exchange either way, so having the fireplace going was very beneficial. In today's houses, the envelope is so tight, that we have to have conduits to allow fresh air exchange due to spray foam, energy rated windows, and better weatherstripping all around. When you put a fireplace insert in today, it ends up drafting ~600 cfm up the chimney which is being made up through the fresh air intakes. The question is how much heat did you capture during that process? Therein lies the answer. If you choose a low efficiency insert, the process doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If you are looking for a primary source to heat your home, you had better look at the higher efficiency units. I built a home just recently and did a lot of research on this exact topic. The other complaint with fireplaces is the smokey smell that sometimes fills the house. This can be due to not having proper height on stack, or due to a lack of fresh air intake. What tends to happen is the fresh air can be drawn back down the stack during other times when the fireplace isn't being used, causing the smokey smell. The solution for me was a HP22 pellet stove by comfortbilt. It uses premium oak pellets that can be purchased at Tractor Supply for ~$5/bag for 40lb bag. It is 85% efficient meaning that for every $5 spent, $4.25 is going into my house in the form of heat. It has a dedicated fresh air intake and a sealed combustion chamber with it's own induced draft motor. What does that mean? This alone is what separates this unit from the other wood burning units with fresh air intakes. Because this has it's own draft motor and fresh air intake along with a sealed combustion chamber, it doesn't backdraft any air down the flu pipe. I know pellet stoves aren't popular yet down here in the south, but up North, it's the trend due to the higher efficiency and the ease to use. It does require electrical to run the one that we have, but it gets used almost everyday during the cold season. To date, I have not yet turned on my central heat which is a heat pump/electric strip backup. I am heating 2910 sqft. and 40 lbs tends to last about 15-20 hrs which comes out to about $.25-$.35 / hour for the pellets. The electrical cost is not very substantial except initially during the ignition stage (I think ~450Watts) Other than that, it uses very low amperage for the blowers. The heat pumps that we installed just don't get used. The problem is: with spray foam insulation, we just don't need any heat unless the outside temp is in the mid thirty's / low forty's extended time. if it's going to get below 38 degrees, the heat pumps become inefficient to the point that you are running the heat strips to thaw out the heat pump/condenser. If you go straight electric heat, then you are using 35KW ( one unit with 20KW and other with 15KW strips) while they are running to produce that same heat. That equates to about $3.85/hr of electric heat. If you run just heat pump in mild cold, then you could cut that cost to about $.88/ hr. We just haven't really had the need to run heat in mild cold. Just FYI https://www.comfortbilt.net/hp22-pellet-stoves/
bobinator
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There's also the fact that maybe you just want to heat up one room. We actually like it cold in our bedroom when we're going to bed so we'll get the fireplace going while watching tv or whatever and it warms the living room and then when it's time to go to bed our bedroom is nice and cold like we like it and then we set our nest to turn on the central heat in the morning to warm the whole house.
TMoney2007
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1st Generation Ag said:

I have lived in three houses now with fireplaces, but I have never made a fire in any of them. I'm told they aren't worth the effort because they end up increasing the heating costs during the winter. The heated air goes up the chimney and, through convection, just draws the cooler air from all over the house so you don't even feel warm.

Makes sense from what I learned in school about heat & cold, but I wonder - why even have a chimney if that's so? Chimneys have been around since the middle ages, when they were an innovation for dealing with the cold during the 'little ice age' (the late middle ages were much colder than the preceding centuries). Prior to their invention you had to build a fire inside the house if you wanted one, and the smoke would have to ventilate through the windows and door. It must have been a net benefit; people wouldn't have built them into their houses if the net effect was to make the house colder. You can't fool people who live their whole lives in austere environments, and they have no tolerance for nonsense.

What are we doing wrong? Is there a right way to use a wood fire in the fireplace that is a net benefit to the occupants? Am I missing something?
In general, fireplaces built in new homes aren't made to heat the entire home, but your understanding of thermodynamics is a little lacking. Hot air isn't the only thing that a fire produces. There is also radiant heat, and when the fireplace is brick, the masonry will absorb and release heat.

The chimney is there to keep the gasses that come from combustion (which are bad for you) and the soot from going into your house.

As others have said, there are more efficient fireplace inserts available. The reality is most houses have fireplaces because people want them for status/decoration, because they like using them, or because they're usually too expensive to remove.

"You can't fool people who live their whole lives in austere environments, and they have no tolerance for nonsense. "
^This is a really strange sentiment, and I don't understand what you're trying to say. Chimneys have served a purpose since they were invented. They don't just make the fire less effective without providing any benefit...

Forced air heating of some kind is probably more efficient, and definitely doesn't require you to create and maintain a fire.
JP76
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Gary79Ag said:

Lived in 3 houses over my lifetime that had fireplaces.

First house had a traditional wood burning fireplace, and yes, the bulk of the heat went up the chimney. Had a wood rack/grill with a fan to circulate and blow heat into the room bt was every inefficient.

Second house had a traditional WBF as well, but I purchased an energy efficient fireplace insert with an enclosed firebox and a blower to circulate the heat into the room. Significant improvement, but I did even better by installing an HVAC air return in the ceiling directly in front of the FP. I turned the HVAC system fan on its low speed and it circulated the heat throughout the entire house.

Third house...exactly the same with exception that the home has a 4-zone HVAC system and the firebox can hold enough wood to burn between 12-14 hours if fully loaded. I can control where the heat warms the house via the various zones as needed. Couldn't be happier...heating the entire house with it now as I type this response. The insert lets me control the amount of heat it generates, as it is extremely efficient and I do not use the heater at all when I have a fire going, like all of this week so far!



Fwiw most hvac blowers depending on age still use 6 to 8 amps running in the on position.
I'm not saying you are not saving money but when you figure in your time, wood cost or more time cost if you cut and split yourself and then figure having to replace the blower motor sooner you probably aren't really saving much if any money trying to heat a whole house this way. My natural gas bill was $38 for month of January with the heat staying on 72. To me a wood burner is more about ambience and memories but to each their own
BrazosDog02
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My living room gets downright hot from a standard wood burning insert with a standard chimney. I think the problem people have now is that their perspective is all ****ed up. You're looking at your fireplace from your new nice tight built home with a 5 ton central AC system and all the heat strips or heat pump you can afford to pay for.

If you were living in 1774 in New Hampshire, that "inefficient" fireplace is the bees knees and has multiple benefits up to and including keeping you from freezing to death.

Half of my home was built in 1868 and the other half was built in 2013. Our original heating would have not been fireplaces, it would have been wood burning stoves. You cooked on them and it made your room unbearably hot if you so wished. 18" limestone walls were internally built with chimneys that connected two rooms with two stoves into one stack out the top. It would have burned mesquite and oak almost exclusively, which we burn now. Mesquite burns stupid hot which is why a fireplace full will keep you toasty in freezing temps.

In 2020, we have a multitude of efficient systems if you need to heat a home with it. If you don't, there is absolutely no replacement for an open fire in a hearth or insert crackling with the gentle smell of mesquite wood wafting through the house when you come in from a cold day. You won't get that from a stove or efficient setup. Just depends on what you want.
CapCity12thMan
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My fireplace definitely produces heat for the main living room and then I can feel the heat that has risen at the top of the stairs. I grew up with a wood burning fireplace, and it's the sound and smell that I enjoy and the heat is a good bonus. Reminds me of my dad, growing up it was him sitting by the fire in his chair reading the newspaper. He always let me 'put another log in the fire' and as a kid I thought that was pretty cool.
JSKolache
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1st Generation Ag said:

What are we doing wrong? Is there a right way to use a wood fire in the fireplace that is a net benefit to the occupants? Am I missing something?
Not in a modern house. Cabin in the woods, sure
Old RV Ag
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1st Generation Ag said:

I have lived in three houses now with fireplaces, but I have never made a fire in any of them.

Am I missing something?
Whenever you make your first fire, make sure the damper to the chimney is open before you start it. All it takes is one time to forget and your house will smell like smoke for a very long time.
DE4D
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I want a fireplace large enough to stand in. And hang a cauldron. That looks into kitchen and the reading room.

I also want a bear skin rug that doubles as a bear suit coverall, so my wants are mostly ignored around the savage household.

Edit- to answer your question... build a top down burning fire for a longer lssting fireplace burn that is both satisfying and efficient in terms of wood spent. Largest log on bottom, even an uncut log 8-12" diameter with each layer tightly packed on and around. Using smaller pieces as you build up.
jtp01
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I live in the middle of 1300 acres 17 miles from the nearest town. During ice storms, we typically lose power therefore the only options for heat are propane heaters or fireplace.

I know my scenario isn't "typical" but we are building our forever home and a fireplace is a must have for us. We are currently living in the "old farmhouse" while we build and it doesn't have a fireplace and that is a pain when we lose power. Once the house is built, the farmhouse will become our offices and I will be installing a wood burning stove to add some extra heat options.
ravingfans
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PFG said:

Bc burning wood is awesome.

Bc sitting in front of a fireplace is awesome.

Most homes I've been in have fireplaces that are raised up. A floor hearth makes much more sense. Get your chair close, pour a drink, and enjoy.


Interesting you say that--I have never understood why people build floor fireplaces, without the "bench" area to sit on.

Do you scoot your chair right up to the fireplace within a foot perhaps? We have recliners, so don't really move them around. Perhaps it is a recliner/no recliner kind of question?

This seems like a classical Little Endian/Big Endian debate...
ravingfans
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ReelDeal said:

in the old days, houses were very drafty. Windows were not sealed like they are today; thresholds were terrible; walls had no insulation and air infiltrated through easily. Imagine having a fire outside in freezing conditions. The fire is lifesaving, but at a very inefficient rate/ fuel consumed. In the old houses, air was going to exchange either way, so having the fireplace going was very beneficial. In today's houses, the envelope is so tight, that we have to have conduits to allow fresh air exchange due to spray foam, energy rated windows, and better weatherstripping all around. When you put a fireplace insert in today, it ends up drafting ~600 cfm up the chimney which is being made up through the fresh air intakes. The question is how much heat did you capture during that process? Therein lies the answer. If you choose a low efficiency insert, the process doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If you are looking for a primary source to heat your home, you had better look at the higher efficiency units. I built a home just recently and did a lot of research on this exact topic. The other complaint with fireplaces is the smokey smell that sometimes fills the house. This can be due to not having proper height on stack, or due to a lack of fresh air intake. What tends to happen is the fresh air can be drawn back down the stack during other times when the fireplace isn't being used, causing the smokey smell. The solution for me was a HP22 pellet stove by comfortbilt. It uses premium oak pellets that can be purchased at Tractor Supply for ~$5/bag for 40lb bag. It is 85% efficient meaning that for every $5 spent, $4.25 is going into my house in the form of heat. It has a dedicated fresh air intake and a sealed combustion chamber with it's own induced draft motor. What does that mean? This alone is what separates this unit from the other wood burning units with fresh air intakes. Because this has it's own draft motor and fresh air intake along with a sealed combustion chamber, it doesn't backdraft any air down the flu pipe. I know pellet stoves aren't popular yet down here in the south, but up North, it's the trend due to the higher efficiency and the ease to use. It does require electrical to run the one that we have, but it gets used almost everyday during the cold season. To date, I have not yet turned on my central heat which is a heat pump/electric strip backup. I am heating 2910 sqft. and 40 lbs tends to last about 15-20 hrs which comes out to about $.25-$.35 / hour for the pellets. The electrical cost is not very substantial except initially during the ignition stage (I think ~450Watts) Other than that, it uses very low amperage for the blowers. The heat pumps that we installed just don't get used. The problem is: with spray foam insulation, we just don't need any heat unless the outside temp is in the mid thirty's / low forty's extended time. if it's going to get below 38 degrees, the heat pumps become inefficient to the point that you are running the heat strips to thaw out the heat pump/condenser. If you go straight electric heat, then you are using 35KW ( one unit with 20KW and other with 15KW strips) while they are running to produce that same heat. That equates to about $3.85/hr of electric heat. If you run just heat pump in mild cold, then you could cut that cost to about $.88/ hr. We just haven't really had the need to run heat in mild cold. Just FYI https://www.comfortbilt.net/hp22-pellet-stoves/


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