Anybody have experience acting as their own general contractor during a remodel? Any recommended reading?

Just the basic advice of do your research beforehand. KNOW what these guys are supposed to be installing and how. Plenty of trades guys will cut corners and do things, "the right way," because they don't know any better and think it'll be fine. In many cases, it will be for a little while. If you're going for the long haul, fine for a little while won't do it. You want by the book, best practices.

The problem with construction is that for the frontline guys, it is something that is passed down. The latest and best way to do things is not constantly learned and applied by most, so poor or outdated practices persist. It's up to you to know what and how they should be installing and to hold them to it.

My wife and I are in the middle of our kitchen remodel. We interviewed 4 contractors to listen to their estimates, timeline and process. We had quotes ranging from $25,000 (including materials) to $80,000+ .

We didn't go with the cheapest, but rather with the person that we could communicate with often and easily. He had an eye for details and was used to working in high-end homes. He took our project, but it was tiny relative to others he does.

Let me add to what ABATTBQ11 said: even if you do choose a contractor, it doesn't actually mean they won't over look details or do stupid **** that you end up having to ask to have repaired. Our contractor uses good crews, but they can be sloppy sometimes and fixing up a few holes here and there were needed afterwards. We had about 8-ft of wall removed (complete removal) that I knew would need a load-bearing beam in the attic.

They cut a hole in the ceiling letting tons of insulation drop creating a dusty mess. They then cut the wall w/o any tension/bracing, and then put the beams in. I was critical of that process and told them that they should have braced the wall to prevent load/stress shifting. Sure enough, a corner in the adjacent room rippled/cracked from floor to ceiling. They fixed it all, but this is a crew that does jobs like these ALL of the time and most home owners probably aren't engineers or OCD about processes.

You can absolutely do it yourself, but you need to have contacts or know good sheet-rock guys, painters, and potentially framers. The kitchen layout itself was mostly handled through our cabinet company that does the measurements, ordering, and install. A contractor is really just an administrator with a dependable Rolodex.

Not the same as an indoor kitchen but, I acted as the general contractor for my outdoor kitchen and it was a pretty enjoyable process. It definitely took longer but, i got a 14-16k kitchen for $8k and could not be happier. I also look at the kitchen and feel like I contributed heavily (did electrical, plumbing and installed the doors) to it which makes it that much more enjoyable.

Perfect example.

OP needs to have a plan of exactly what he wants and how he wants it done. That needs to be communicated to contractors when they bid and worked into the contract.

Also, don't be afraid to withhold final payment until you're happy. I noticed some things a deck contractor messed up after final payment, and I've given up on them coming to fix it.

Thanks y'all. Our kitchen remodel is semi-major. No wall removal, but some framing to relocate the ovens to the fridge wall and the removal of a barrier stone fireplace. The cabinet folks have drawn up a nice plan on their end, and we already have an electrician, window/door guy, and flooring guys. Really we would just be paying for demo, appliance install, and project management. What has me considering taking the reigns on this though is that we are in metro Denver, and the demand has contractors asking for the sun/moon/stars without, of course, delivering more on their end (presumably). It has been that way ever since we moved in 2014.

Do it yourself if you have the time and flexibility in schedule. It'll take a little longer, but might be worth it.

Im being nosy and inquisitive: do you know what kind of cabinets you are getting or who makes them? Are they full 5/8 plywood construction?

Haven't settled on cabinet yet. Like the full ply construction for sure just wondering if it's worth the upgrade.

Do the planners have preferred suppliers? We are going Mid-Continent but mainly because that is who the company uses. I would have preferred Kraftmaid but didn't want to rely on Lowes.

I think we've been looking at Meridian cabinets. They have several lines.

I have had nothing but bad experiences with GCs, thinking it would make it less of a headache for me. Couldn't have been more wrong. I cannot wait to GC my next project.

You need to know the right way of how to do the work being done though - framing, waterproofing, sealing, trimming, whatever it is because without question trades are lazy and won't do quality work the first time. Make sure they use the right materials and don't settle on anything until you are 100% satisfied and don't be afraid to fire someone.

Check that: looking at Medallion or DesignCraft cabinets.

Like the frameless, but dont want to lose durability ...

I took it a step further and went from bidding out 3 GCs to doing the whole thing myself. Only thing I paid for was counters and those guys mounted the sink.

My wife and I did tile around the island, the island, back splash, all new appliances, pendant lights, and paint. Once we broke it down by trade it was much more manageable. Went from about $30K to about $10K total including all appliances.

That's looks fantastic! What a great accomplishment. Did you change out your cabinets too?

Thanks. Just painted the existing cabinets. It's the only part of the kitchen that if you look really close you can tell it's not professional but I would still give it an 8.5/10. I did add a drawer on the island for the trash can.

When you said $10k, my jaw nearly dropped! I thought maybe that included cabinets too!

My GC is good...don't get me wrong, and truth be told, I know he is only making a a couple....maybe few $K. I would have liked to do more of it myself but we had our entire ceiling skimmed and retextured...new sheet rock, wall demo. About the only thing I could have done was paint and most of the electrical. In fact, I am doing all of the lighting myself, but had the electrician ready the Romex.

Pros

You may save some money but it is going to cost you a lot more time

Cons

It could end up costing you more money In the end due to errors and miscommunication

You may not save much in the end due to contractor pricing on materials and labor

You will more than likely end up with a poorer quality project without professional experienced oversight unless you have experiences in multitrades and k ow what to watch for.

There will be less accountability from subs since you are a 1 time Joe and not someone who constantly feeds them work all year around.

Your job will not be a priority over the other jobs they have going under other general contractors.

You will pay more for materials than what a contractor does due to economies of scale.

You will pay more for labor than what a contractor does due to economies of scale.


The majority of time there is a direct correlation between quality of work and the price of the estimate.
Lower bids are generally going to cut corners and do sub par work. Before choosing any contractor ask for references and then actually go look at some of their previous jobs before selecting one.

A kitchen remodel involves very few trades..

I took down old cabs myself (and rehung in the garage), we hired Lowes to do cabinets/countertops, and I hired a tile guy for tile. (which was crazy, I got a guy off CL that only cut/laid the tile I provided, we did the grout. Dude did 500sf of backsplash for $80, took him 7 hours.)

What else do you need?

Ahh, a plumber too, my buddy was a plumber and hooked up the sink, dw & gd. But that is a very quick basic job for a plumber, I can't imagine much going wrong there.

This isn't like building a house. The timeline is quick, there is only 3-4 trades, and there is very little scheduling between them.

Edit, I see your later reply, yeh sounds like a little more going on. Not sure what to tell you on that. Do you have any experience with construction, or in the industry?

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You may save some money but it is going to cost you a lot more time

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...assuming the contractor you pick shows up when they say they will, doesn't constantly show up late and leave early, and doesn't have to constantly come back and re-do the work.

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It could end up costing you more money In the end due to errors and miscommunication

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As an example, I stood in our backyard with the GC, the masonry owner and the masonry workers telling them exactly what we wanted to do, and still the workers did it wrong. Same thing with the roofer. Same thing with the gutters guys, same thing with the carpenter. You have to be there standing over their shoulder if you want something done right.

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You may not save much in the end due to contractor pricing on materials and labor

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Contractors do get discounts at all the stores typically. Not sure how much.

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You will more than likely end up with a poorer quality project without professional experienced oversight unless you have experiences in multitrades and k ow what to watch for.

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This is assuming the GC you use provides oversight of the work. I had to constantly point out deficiencies in the work and ask them to re-do it. It's not that the GC didn't agree, it's just that they could never gets things right the first time.

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There will be less accountability from subs since you are a 1 time Joe and not someone who constantly feeds them work all year around.

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Likely very true, so treat them right - maybe bring in lunch or drinks for them - stuff like that might help some. Maybe some cash at the end of the week if they did a good job.

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Your job will not be a priority over the other jobs they have going under other general contractors.

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Lots of variables in play for both projects to say this as an absolute.

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You will pay more for materials than what a contractor does due to economies of scale.

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I still think at the end of the day, even paying more keeps your total cost under what a GC would charge you

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You will pay more for labor than what a contractor does due to economies of scale.

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I would argue the difference here still benefits someone being their own GC

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The majority of time there is a direct correlation between quality of work and the price of the estimate.

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Unless you have the two bids do the exact same work, this can never be proven really. I had a bid for my job that was double what I paid. In the end, I got exactly what I designed and I am assured the quality finally got to where I wanted it. The process to get there was excruciatingly painful and what I was told was a 6 week project took 5 months. That's the part that has me irritated. It was poorly managed, with chaos for communication. If I paid double, I would have finished early yes but I doubt the quality would have been much better. I will never know though.

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Lower bids are generally going to cut corners and do sub par work.

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Every trade I've encountered cuts corners. It's in their genes. Those that don't are the exception. You are just plain lucky if your contractor doesn't.

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Before choosing any contractor ask for references and then actually go look at some of their previous jobs before selecting one.

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This will help, yes but paint and trim and other aesthetics can hide structural shortcuts you would never get a chance to see, so just keep that in mind. Does the bathroom remodel that looks all nice and shiny have proper cement board and waterproofing behind it? Is the plumbing in the walls to code? Electrical in the walls to code? Things like this matter.

Builder93 said:

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Mainly I got tired of this completely open ended question: "How much per square foot?"

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I hope you didn't go to commercial construction, because everything revolves around 'how much per square foot'.

One would would not cut corners using 5/8 instead of 3/4 on your new cabinets

I know quite few tradesmen who have left residential for commercial for the reasons he claims.

From your postings you either have

Terrible luck picking a contractor , checking references and looking at previous projects they have completed

Unrealistic expectations for your project caused by choosing lower end bids

I wish I had some referrals for you in your area but all I have are clearing/grading connections out that way.


If you are OCD then your best bet is to always use an OCD contractor. Ask around and you will eventually find one but remember quality will always come at a price.

62strat said:

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Builder93 said:

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Mainly I got tired of this completely open ended question: "How much per square foot?"

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I hope you didn't go to commercial construction, because everything revolves around 'how much per square foot'.

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Except that in commercial, the question would ask how much for a specific model number product already specified by the architect. Not, how much can I build a house for per square foot?

Builder93 said:

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62strat said:

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Builder93 said:

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Mainly I got tired of this completely open ended question: "How much per square foot?"

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I hope you didn't go to commercial construction, because everything revolves around 'how much per square foot'.

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Except that in commercial, the question would ask how much for a specific model number product already specified by the architect. Not, how much can I build a house for per square foot?

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We tell developers almost every single day how much a building or tenant finish will cost per square foot based on conceptual drawings (many times a single page google earth snapshot with hand drawn lines in for buildings size/placement). I put together one about every week.

Then when the CDs come our way and we do a hard estimate, we find we're always really damn close, so we continue to give our clients $/sf when they ask, and the cycle continues.

Do you have a lot of free time? Even with a GC you'll need to be hawking subs to make sure it's done right. Doing it yourself is time consuming but using a GC could wind up pointless if you pick the wrong one.

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Terrible luck picking a contractor , checking references and looking at previous projects they have completed

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Yes, bad luck. If BBB, Angies,Houzz, other customers of the GC etc. are not the right way to go in checking references, then please educate me.

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Unrealistic expectations for your project caused by choosing lower end bids

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This was not a lower end bid - the third highest we got. Based on some previous threads and photos I have posted, Am I picky - of course. Unrealistic? absolutely not. There were some aesthetic things I posted on here to get input that I have ad to work with contract to get it "better" but not how I would have done it and I am going to live with it/correct it myself (which I am currently doing).

I battled many things this project with my GC...examples:

- Poor framing/nailing (https://drive.google.com/drive/u/1/folders/1Mu7i28qbFQhYwiGvWSNSRR3LxIRj8ouZ)
- improper hardware used (https://texags.com/forums/61/topics/2962743/replies/52168683)

These things are not OCD.

CapCity12thMan said:

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This was not a lower end bid - the third highest we got.

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I kinda chuckled at this, since it's pretty typical to get 3 bids.

CapCity12thMan said:

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Terrible luck picking a contractor , checking references and looking at previous projects they have completed

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Yes, bad luck. If BBB, Angies,Houzz, other customers of the GC etc. are not the right way to go in checking references, then please educate me.

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Unrealistic expectations for your project caused by choosing lower end bids

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This was not a lower end bid - the third highest we got. Based on some previous threads and photos I have posted, Am I picky - of course. Unrealistic? absolutely not. There were some aesthetic things I posted on here to get input that I have ad to work with contract to get it "better" but not how I would have done it and I am going to live with it/correct it myself (which I am currently doing).

I battled many things this project with my GC...examples:

- Poor framing/nailing (https://drive.google.com/drive/u/1/folders/1Mu7i28qbFQhYwiGvWSNSRR3LxIRj8ouZ)
- improper hardware used (https://texags.com/forums/61/topics/2962743/replies/52168683)

These things are not OCD.

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Did you actually talk to previous customers of the contractor you hired and personally go look at the jobs in person ?


I actually thought about you the another night. Was eating a Lupe Tortilla and they just expanded the outdoor seating. As I was looking around at the improvements I noticed all the treated handrails had been anchored with non galvanized nails and were all completely rusted.

I got 7 bids

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Did you actually talk to previous customers of the contractor you hired and personally go look at the jobs in person ?

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Yes - about 4-5 houses down the street they did a FULL gut job/remodel. It looks great. These folks bought the house, lived out of the country for 9-12 months while they finished and then moved in. This was their first experience with a contractor/remodel. I asked them how they thought it went and they said it "took longer than we thought it would" and "don't really know what we don't know". They also mentioned in the span of their project they had 4-5 different proj managers, but didn't know if that was normal or not.

When I went to view their house - there is only so much I can do...we are strangers and they aren't gonna let me roam around opening cabinets and look in their bathrooms under the sink unannounced like that. So to me previous point...structural things inside walls and things that get covered up - this can never really be validated unless you are there during the process.

Speaking with the contractor about their project prior to me hiring them (which was part of my research), he said the wife "was CONSTANTLY changing things and it complicated a lot for them, hence the long duration". I can see that, and with them not physically being there, and the timezone differences, I can imagine it was tough to keep pace. I also thought - this was a full house gut, and I am just building a simple patio/deck, and given a 6 week estimated build timeframe, with clear plans, colors and designs - it's straighforward...so is PM turnover REALLY a concern in a 6 week period?....I gambled on a NO to that.

Turns out it was - I had 4 different PMs, and two people got fired as a result of my project. They cut corners, didn't follow plans/specs and lied to me making continuous mistakes.

So, if someone were to come visit my project - it looks great and is well built, but the project was poorly managed, with abhorrent communication and they attempted to take advantage of me on a couple of occasions. It's now done, and I can assure you the quality is what it needed to be because a) I stayed on top of darn near everything down to the type of nails used and b) I have a FIL who owns a structural engineering company who had his eyes on it and wouldn't allow me to get shortcutted.

So in the end, I now see why the other project took so long - poor management plain and simple. I feel for the owners though - if they got some of the quality I initially saw in my project they are in for a real treat.

So part of my frustration is all the work I had to put into managing the quality of this project I ended up paying this GC to do, and they didn't do it. That is what frustrates me. I could have saved thousands if I just had a rolodex of good subs. Between my two projects I have had done - I do have that rolodex now, hence why I will GC my master bath remodel this coming year.

Another reno thread just got capcity'd!

Que?