Home Warranty Claim Denied - Electrical Grounded to Hot Water Heater

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Goose06
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4:13p, 4/13/18
AG
I have a leak in my attic causing damage to my ceiling. The plumber who the home warranty company sent out has said it was caused by electrolysis due to whoever built the home grounding a wire to the hot water heater and he is saying this is not to code.

I know zip about plumbing or electrical so I have no way to know if they are lying to me or not. I would think my home inspection would have caught an electrical wire that was incorrectly grounded to the water heater. I just read the home inspection report and there are numerous pictures of the water heater and they noted other issues they found with the water heater and this was not one of them.

1. Is it against code to ground to a water heater? I haven't looked at it yet personally, but I believe they grounded it directly to a copper pipe coming off the hot water heater.
2. Is this something that my inspector should have caught?
3. Should my home warranty company be responsible?

Thank you in advance for any suggestions/help.
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sts7049
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5:24p, 4/13/18
AG
what a crock
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SoulSlaveAG2005
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6:19p, 4/13/18
AG
The first rule of home warranties is that home warranties dont cover it.

The second rule of home warranties is that home warranties aren't responsible.

The third rule of home ..... ah you get it
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UnderoosAg
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6:29p, 4/13/18
AG
After three or four beers, I could probably come up with a scenario in which you had the most incredible set of coincidental circumstances in soil chemistry, water quality, and connections between dissimilar metals which would lead to such a cause.

Either that, or the plumber is FOS. Occam's razor, although I might look twice at an aluminum conductor attached to a galvanized clamp, fitting, bracket, etc.

Do you have a picture of what is connected.

My money still says he's FOS.
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Long Live Sully
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7:12p, 4/13/18
AG
Home warranties are worth nothing. Sorry.
Cow Hop Ag and Bayside both say they are conservatives.
Bayside admits to being pro choice.
Bayside calls Cow Hop Ag a liberal because he's a moral man.

/ Charpie 4-13-18
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Goose06
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7:27p, 4/13/18
AG
I've generally had decent luck with home warranties. Once I got an a/c unit replaced and pretty sure I've had 2 refrigerators replaced.
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Gary79Ag
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In reply to UnderoosAg • 11:42p, 4/13/18
AG
UnderoosAg said:
After three or four beers, I could probably come up with a scenario in which you had the most incredible set of coincidental circumstances in soil chemistry, water quality, and connections between dissimilar metals which would lead to such a cause.

Either that, or the plumber is FOS. Occam's razor, although I might look twice at an aluminum conductor attached to a galvanized clamp, fitting, bracket, etc.

Do you have a picture of what is connected.

My money still says he's FOS.
I agree with the FOS scenario too!
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The Fife
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8:06a, 4/14/18
Even if that's the problem I'm assuming copper wire... copper pipe... clamp is likely more likely to corrode than copper (steel?). I'm not buying it.

Also, even if they're not full of crap and that's actually what happened was it even against code when the place was built? That would be the real issue because codes change all the time.
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Goose06
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8:27a, 4/14/18
AG
The first 2 photos are where the electrical wiring is connected to the piping coming off the hot water heater. The last photo is where the water leak is (about 20-30 feet from the water heater).



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Long Live Sully
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8:34a, 4/14/18
AG
I don't know about the code today, but grounding to copper piping has been done for many many years and there is no way in the world that they have science to back up their position and you know the "electrician" did nothing to prove this hypothesis and pulled it out of his backside.

I guarantee that the "electrician" has in his manual of "how to screw the homeowner and deny any claim" a section on things to look for and hope you don't push back. This BS is in that manual.

I would fight this legally. These people aren't sophisticated enough to withstand discovery and they can't afford the risk of their deceptive practices being exposed .

They are all sorts of scummy.
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Goose06
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In reply to Long Live Sully • 8:59a, 4/14/18
AG
Cow Hop Ag said:
I don't know about the code today, but grounding to copper piping has been done for many many years and there is no way in the world that they have science to back up their position and you know the "electrician" did nothing to prove this hypothesis and pulled it out of his backside.

I guarantee that the "electrician" has in his manual of "how to screw the homeowner and deny any claim" a section on things to look for and hope you don't push back. This BS is in that manual.

I would fight this legally. These people aren't sophisticated enough to withstand discovery and they can't afford the risk of their deceptive practices being exposed .

They are all sorts of scummy.
What makes it worse is it was not an electrician that gave this opinion. It was a plumber who tried to tell me how lazy electricians are and they see this often, blah blah blah.
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Long Live Sully
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In reply to Goose06 • 9:01a, 4/14/18
AG
Oh.. sorry I missed that part. Need more coffee.

Even worse. A plumber who is an electrical expert. I am sure some enterprising legal beagle here will offer to send a letter on your behalf.



Cow Hop Ag and Bayside both say they are conservatives.
Bayside admits to being pro choice.
Bayside calls Cow Hop Ag a liberal because he's a moral man.

/ Charpie 4-13-18
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Goose06
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9:03a, 4/14/18
AG
My current hypothesis is one of the following:

1. Plumber would only make $200 if this was covered by the home warranty but they can charge me $400 if its not covered. When you throw in their cost of materials, their margin is likely dramatically better when charging me directly.

or

2. Plumber is in bed with the home warranty company. If the plumbing were covered by the home warranty then so is the repairs to the water damage. So a $400 problem that I have been quoted so far might end up being $1000+ after I get someone out to assess the water damage done to my ceiling (and whereever else it is that I can't see). By denying this $400 claim they avoid any other claims related to this.
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Long Live Sully
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In reply to Goose06 • 9:06a, 4/14/18
AG
I think the answer is both.

There will be a class action suit someday against these guys. The contractors are coached on denying claims. They are worse than auto extended warranty companies.
Cow Hop Ag and Bayside both say they are conservatives.
Bayside admits to being pro choice.
Bayside calls Cow Hop Ag a liberal because he's a moral man.

/ Charpie 4-13-18
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LostInLA07
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In reply to Goose06 • 10:14a, 4/14/18
AG
I don't think your home warranty would cover the water damage either way. That would probably be a homeowner insurance claim if the damage is significant enough to warrant that.
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UnderoosAg
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11:19a, 4/14/18
AG
The plumber is FOS. Tell him the installation aligns with the concepts of article 250.52 of the National Electrical Code concerning the use of metal water piping as a supplemental grounding electrode. On top of that, the equipment grounding conductor from the branch circuit which feeds the water heater is bonded to the grounding terminal on the heater. This terminal, by design and as part of the UL or ETL listing, is bonded to the frame and housing of the water heater. When connected to metal water piping, it makes everything electrically continuous.

Then ask him to please quote the specific chapter and verse of either the National Electrical Code, the Uniform Plumbing Code, or the International Plumbing Code which would disallow the installation. If it's truly a code violation, and one he sees every day, then he ought to be able to spout it off the top of his head. When he starts tap dancing, tell him to STFU, go get his shine box and fix it.

If he actually comes up with a code reference (HA!), post it here and I'll grab the code text for you.

My money says if he's pushed, he will default to the standard BS excuse of "I've been in the plumbing bidness for _____ years".

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Gary79Ag
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In reply to UnderoosAg • 11:40a, 4/14/18
AG
Now that folks is how you school a dumb ass plumber that's FOS and teach him a lesson...

Way to go UnderoosAg!!!
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Goose06
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In reply to UnderoosAg • 11:52a, 4/14/18
AG
UnderoosAg said:
The plumber is FOS. Tell him the installation aligns with the concepts of article 250.52 of the National Electrical Code concerning the use of metal water piping as a supplemental grounding electrode. On top of that, the equipment grounding conductor from the branch circuit which feeds the water heater is bonded to the grounding terminal on the heater. This terminal, by design and as part of the UL or ETL listing, is bonded to the frame and housing of the water heater. When connected to metal water piping, it makes everything electrically continuous.

Then ask him to please quote the specific chapter and verse of either the National Electrical Code, the Uniform Plumbing Code, or the International Plumbing Code which would disallow the installation. If it's truly a code violation, and one he sees every day, then he ought to be able to spout it off the top of his head. When he starts tap dancing, tell him to STFU, go get his shine box and fix it.

If he actually comes up with a code reference (HA!), post it here and I'll grab the code text for you.

My money says if he's pushed, he will default to the standard BS excuse of "I've been in the plumbing bidness for _____ years".



Prior to receiving this ammo I had already requested a written response for why this installation is improper, I will await their response before advancing beyond that.

Unfortunately I think the above poster is probably correct, I doubt a home warranty covers the water damage caused by the pipe leak.
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Goose06
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11:56a, 4/17/18
AG
They have now modified their argument from "improper installation" to "not normal wear and tear" saying that electrolysis caused this and thats not normal...

Anyone have an electrician they recommend in the Woodlands area?
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UnderoosAg
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12:21p, 4/17/18
AG
Don't know of him personally but folks have recommended Mark Luchak in the past.
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Marvin_Zindler
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In reply to UnderoosAg • 1:20p, 4/17/18
AG
Mark is a great guy. His number is 281-450-2673. He was busy last I talked to him in late February, but feel free to tell him you were recommended through TexAgs. He takes care of folks on this board and the Houston board.
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UnderoosAg
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In reply to Goose06 • 1:35p, 4/17/18
AG
Goose06 said:
They have now modified their argument from "improper installation" to "not normal wear and tear" saying that electrolysis caused this and thats not normal...

Pipes bursting after five years (or whatever) isn't normal. That's kind of why you have warranties.
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Goose06
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In reply to UnderoosAg • 2:04p, 4/17/18
AG
UnderoosAg said:
Goose06 said:
They have now modified their argument from "improper installation" to "not normal wear and tear" saying that electrolysis caused this and thats not normal...

Pipes bursting after five years (or whatever) isn't normal. That's kind of why you have warranties.


While I agree, my feedback was that if it was not determined to be an improper installation, it was proper, and therefore this would be caused by normal wear and tear... they couldn't dispute that but they said they needed a qualified contractor to tell them it was normal wear and tear...
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Long Live Sully
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In reply to Goose06 • 2:06p, 4/17/18
AG
Their business model is to say whatever they can to deny a claim. Once they have your money they don't care.
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UnderoosAg
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4:31p, 4/17/18
AG
The 5hit face was for your warranty company. The whole point of a warranty is for not normal breakdowns. But this right here leak is a code issu... Uh, I mean a not normal leak.
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Goose06
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4:39p, 4/17/18
AG
Oh I know what the face was for, same reason for my face...
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jtp01
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4:39p, 4/17/18
AG
Home warranties are a scam at best. I've told the story here about having a water well guy mixing good pumps with good motors and selling them as new pumps.

I was putting a new pump in a well almost every year. Called a different well guy out, pulls the pump and the motor and pump were manufactured several years apart. And had already been claimed on the warranty once for the pump and once for the motor.

That it the quality of contractor you get with home warranties. The new well guy actually didn't charge me for the new pump, but wanted the old one to take to the pump company. He had been struggling with the other well guy on pricing new pumps and wanted to put an end to it.
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greenman99
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8:42p, 4/17/18
AG
Am I the only one seeing a grounding clamp on the gas supply? I have seen lots of ground/bonding to cold water but never to a gas pipe. I would think that is a big no no.
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jt2hunt
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In reply to greenman99 • 8:54p, 4/17/18
AG
You want your gas line bonded
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