So, I'm a civil/structural engineer by education and occupation. I have dealt with construction and I am intimately familar with wood framing and the like.

My wife and I are interested in a nice (very expensive) townhome here in Houston. The builder is by all accounts, reputable and solid.

During our first visit, I immediately noticed signs of obvious patch/repair work on two balconies on the unit immediately adjacent (that we also walked through). Well, when we walked through the unit we are more interested in, I noticed that the balcony at the second floor was not recessed; finished floor of the balcony was flush with finished floor of the main second level.

This left me a little confused as to why remedial measures were taken on the other unit but not this one. I had my suspicions and they have since been confirmed that given the differing way in which the houses were framed, it would likely be a far more costly fix to recess the balcony the 3-1/2 inches per plan for the unit we want .

The balcony is set back and is not a protruding balcony and it is well covered by the third floor. The builder states they have not had any issues with water intrusion.

I have done some searching through both the IBC and IRC to see what they have to say about recessing a balcony and I couldn't find anything definitive other than a maximum recess (related to max step height).

What is the home improvement board's opinion on the matter? I intend to bring it up to the inspector we hire and seek their opinion as well.

My initial thoughts are to push for some type of additional specific warranty related to this are/condition.

In all my time having worked on wood frame motels, apartments and other residential construction, I have always seen the plans call for a balcony to be recessed.

I guess, I'm trying to determine if this a "hill" I should die on and a deal breaker.

I am not a building envelope specialist.

jamaggie06 said:

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The builder states they have not had any issues with water intrusion.

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I'd walk away on this statement alone. The "it's been working so far" excuse from contractors always chaps my ass. They didn't tell you why they deviated from the design, or what additional steps they've taken, or why it will still work, or offer another fix, or anything else even remotely constructive (no pun intended). They looked you in the eye and admitted they've been lucky.

Every contractor has issues come up on every project. Some simple, others more involved. Every GC I've ever worked with who wasn't worth a **** at some point tried the it's been working so far excuse. The good ones find a way to make it right.

All you need is one good storm and wind in the right direction to have a really bad day. Now imagine that happens while you're on vacation for a week. A warranty won't make you whole.

If you weren't interested in this place, would you think the installation was right?

Disregard the Solari face, guess my finger slipped.

I agree. It also calls into question other things.

But its not just my decision... the wife loves this house.

That's why I'm seeking validation of my position. So it's "not just me," "the engineer," saying so.

If you must consider this unit further ask the contractor for sealed prints, his permits, and the inspections and green tags. Ask if he had sealed design changes to support the construction variance. In short, put him on the spot pretty hard to learn what was done by what approval. This will also demonstrate your knowledge and experience thus showing it's futile to play coy.

I agree with Underwood, walk away. He gave you good reasons. Add to it- if the contractor is not forthcoming with you on this issue, what else is he not disclosing?

While the seals on the door(s) may be keeping things water-tight now, they will eventually wear out. As we all know, it's not a matter of "if they will" but of "when they will." There's a good reason why we (contractors, engineers and architects) always recess exterior flooring surfaces lower than exterior - water is a building's biggest enemy. If he wouldn't do it right the first time (when it's the cheapest to do it), there's no way he could sell the place at a price point I would be comfortable with taking that risk.

I appreciate the responses.

Out of curiousity, would you (those who have responded) expect something like this to have been noticed by a) yourself or b) an inspector?

I'll admit, my opinions of inspectors are fairly low. I am of the opinion few if any potential home buyers would have noticed.

I know commercial construction and I know it requires a pretty good amount of special inspections (outside agency not hired by the contractor) to ensure that the owner gets what he's paying for.

But here, the "owner" as of when its being built, is the builder.

I guess I'm going to ask for the construction inspection reports.

By "inspector" are you referring to a buyer's mortgage inspector or a code & permit inspector? As far as the builder being the owner- where is his QC?

I probably would have caught it when I stepped over the threshold. Most buyers wouldn't- till it leaked the first time.

When it comes to city inspectors, I've seen a wide range of thoroughness while I was a carpenter. I've seen inspectors sign permits without getting out of their vehicle, and I've seen them nit pick every little detail. I've remodeled homes that I don't know how they passed their inspections when they were built. Most inspectors I dealt with made less than I did when I was a carpenter. For the most part, it comes down to their character and the jurisdiction they work for. It's not a job a lot of people want.

Well, I guess I'd say both. This house is for sale, so it would seem it passed code/permit inspection.

But yes, mortgage type inspectors is mainly what I was referring to. $250 and voila, you've got a piece of paper saying everything is ok.

Ugh. I hate home buying. Especially as an engineer. The quality of residential design & construction is just so poor. And being an engineer with firsthand experience in both just causes a dilemma within me; am I just being too demanding? (Not necessarily in this particular case). Are my expectations just unrealistic? I understand that. Knowing how things are supposed to be designed/built versus how they actually are.

I mean, I just replaced our garbage disposal. Before replacing, it was just supposed to be an unclog and get working again project. So I've got the existing unit, same manufacturer as the new one. Doesn't come with the "plug in" kit, as I guess you have the option to hardwire it to a switch (during construction). Anyway, I'm thinking, ok, I'll just disconnect the existin power cord and re-use it. Ha! The half-assed makeshift job with which it was originally connected led to a trip to Home Depot to purchase the $12 correct parts kits. I mean, I'm sure this kit wasn't $100 back in 2000 when our current place was built, but hey, why make a thirty minute trip to a store and do it right when you can just half ass it and jerry rig it and no one from the contractor to the owner will no or care.

I guess thats just my rant about the state of quality of work in general. If you want something done right, you do have to do it yourself.

Keep in mind inspectors are looking for code issues, not workmanship. You could have an absolutely crappy looking install that will be difficult to maintain built with crappy parts that is still code compliant. And codes are bare minimums not design manuals.

I talked to a Dallas plan reviewer a while back who was about a year in. She knew of a department who had inspectors doing 13-15 inspections per day. How do you drive to 15 locations in a day let alone look at anything.

Anecdotal, but I had a buddy who owned a townhouse in Midtown Houston with the balcony setup you described. He had to do some pretty extensive repairs for water damage before he could get it sold.

No house is going to be perfect and this house may be great, but do you want to take on that kind of risk? If you're in any kind of metro area, there are going to be a lot of other places.

Ask the builder to provide a written warranty for a period of time against water penetration. His response will tell you everything you need to know about what he expects for you to deal with in the future.

dallasiteinsa02 said:

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Ask the builder to provide a written warranty for a period of time against water penetration. His response will tell you everything you need to know about what he expects for you to deal with in the future.

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This.

Any hesitation, walk away. It's just a house and if you ignore a giant red flag you'll regret the decision, guaranteed.

If the builder provides an additional warranty for this issue & then declares bankruptcy, closes up shop, moves to Siberia, gets hit by a bus, etc ........then what?

Wife of a commercial GC here. We built our own home & have done some residential renos. Have been looking to move but I don't want to build again. Keep looking at homes that are just not up to our standards. We find something wrong w/every home. Shortcuts all over the place. Who puts a tiny plastic shower floor in the master bath of a $500,000 home?!Have finally decided to stay put & do some updating. Working on 2 bathrooms now. Grrrrrrr........

jamaggie06 said:

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Ugh. I hate home buying. Especially as an engineer. The quality of residential design & construction is just so poor. And being an engineer with firsthand experience in both just causes a dilemma within me; am I just being too demanding? (Not necessarily in this particular case). Are my expectations just unrealistic? I understand that. Knowing how things are supposed to be designed/built versus how they actually are.

I mean, I just replaced our garbage disposal. Before replacing, it was just supposed to be an unclog and get working again project. So I've got the existing unit, same manufacturer as the new one. Doesn't come with the "plug in" kit, as I guess you have the option to hardwire it to a switch (during construction). Anyway, I'm thinking, ok, I'll just disconnect the existin power cord and re-use it. Ha! The half-assed makeshift job with which it was originally connected led to a trip to Home Depot to purchase the $12 correct parts kits. I mean, I'm sure this kit wasn't $100 back in 2000 when our current place was built, but hey, why make a thirty minute trip to a store and do it right when you can just half ass it and jerry rig it and no one from the contractor to the owner will no or care.

I guess thats just my rant about the state of quality of work in general. If you want something done right, you do have to do it yourself.

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I definitely feel your pain, just from the remodel side (vs. buying new home side). We started our remodel in Spring 2016. I had intended to contract out large portions of the work to ensure that things got done in a timely manner. After about 4 months of nothing but BS excuses and poor workmanship, my wife and I got sick of it and just decided to do the rest ourselves. It has definitely made the process run long (will hopefully be done by this Thanksgiving), but I at least know that I'm getting good quality work.

After this experience, I rank any residential construction contractor or sub-contractor right down next to tow truck drivers on the worthless human scum scale.

As far as your OP, I'll echo everyone else and say run away. The part that sucks is that now your wife is in love with the place so you have the bonus of getting to be the bad guy that keeps her from getting her "dream" home. I was that guy when we started building a new house 3 years ago (this is what led to the remodel). When the jackass builder was doing less than a half-ass job on the foundation prep and construction, I asked for a letter from the EOR stating that their deviations from his plans were acceptable and approved. The builder responded by giving us our money back and telling us that they didn't want us as customers anymore. They continued building the house on a ****ty foundation and sold it for what I'm sure was a pretty penny to some poor ******* that will get to deal with foundation repairs in the coming years.

Whatever you decide, good luck.

Unless this thing is discounted, walk away

Years ago while house hunting, we found a badass home that backed up to a heavily treed ravine with a creek.

The base of the ravine wall clearly had a blow out in progress that someone, possibly the home owner, had tried to repair with railroad ties. They clearly had a limited life span.

This home was perfect. Heavily treed yard, nice pool, elevation with the ravine...i still think that home is one of the coolest we considered.

We ultimately backed out because of the potential cost to fix the blow out properly. If there was one, it could be devastating.... Pool goes, house follows.

I now know what is like to have in a next home, but sleep soundly and don't worry about the weather.

The builder supplied some additional information. It does appear to be built to plan. And upon digging through Google and whatnot, ADA (which this is not required) does have requirements and details for essentially a flush transition and it appears that such a detail was incorporated here.

It just stuck out to me that it was different than the other unit and got me questioning the difference. I won't say I like the way it is detailed, but that's the ropes I guess.

It's just odd to me. The entry into the house has a step up as would be expected; the first floor patio does too.

Any architects want to chime in? Is this standard practice? Does it pose a potential issue in the future? What's the preference of any architects and/builders?

A flush transition at the balcony, with a step at the front door (and no other accessible features) is like being half pregnant. Maybe it's set far back "enough" from the drip edge, but it still opens to the exterior. If that detail works, why were the others redone.

I don't think you're gonna find any definitive reason why it was done that way, or anything concrete telling you it will work just fine. If momma ain't happy, nobody's happy, and maybe y'all roll the dice, but I would just be worried any time storms roll thru.

How much slope away from the wall/door is there? The balcony should have a noticeable slope. What is orientation relative to the primary rain/wind incoming direction?

I've been managing residential construction for ~25 years. It's a difficult job...the quality of the labor force can be quite poor at times.

I've never seen a balcony floor on the same plane as the living area floor. The flashing for the waterproofing for the balcony should extend up several inches up the walls, so water intrusion at the wall **shouldn't** be an issue if is was done properly. The main problem, as stated by others, could come at the threshold for the door. If the back wall and door are recessed enough it may not be an issue, especially if the floor has a decent slope to it, which it should. However, with no recess, the margin for error is reduced.