What else is on the circuit where the external existing outlet is ?
The electrician's concern is with ac unit pulling 5-7 amps and then someone plugs in a 15 amp power tool on the same circuit you will probably run into breaker tripping.

No way I want conduit running along my eave. What is the room on the corner closest to your shed?

Quote:

---

What else is on the circuit where the external existing outlet is ?

---

The pool pump is on that circuit, and a quick google says it's rated for "1-1/2-horsepower (115-volts) and 20-amp circuit breakers".

Quote:

---

No way I want conduit running along my eave. What is the room on the corner closest to your shed?

---

The master bedroom is the closest room on the corner.

Other than visuals, are there other reasons you wouldn't want the conduit along your eave?

Is there an outlet on the exterior wall anywhere near that corner...? You may have answered that and I forgot.

It is more than a visual issue. It will create extra work to paint around it as well as be a place where dirt and insects will collect. I would hate it. I am overly picky.

Your other quote will likely offer other options than conduit along the eave.

JP76 said:

---

What else is on the circuit where the external existing outlet is ?
The electrician's concern is with ac unit pulling 5-7 amps and then someone plugs in a 15 amp power tool on the same circuit you will probably run into breaker tripping.

---

If your house was built in the last 10-12 years, it is likely the exterior circuit is all downstream of a GFCI in the garage. There's a good chance the compressor in the AC unit and the GFCI receptacle will duke it out and cause nuisance tripping. Running about 70' to the shed also increases the circuit length. "Preloading" a GFCI, i.e. adding a long circuit length like that, also increases the chance of nuisance tripping.

Cost is always a concern, if not limitation, but I'd consider what all you plan on doing in the shed. If you just want to sit out in the shed with a beer, that's one thing. If you ever plan on working out there, I'd consider adding another circuit. It's just not a TA response unless someone suggests going big or going home. Whether it's UF cable or conduit, somebody's already digging a trench. You can go from 12/2 UF to 12/3 UF, or add another individual conductor for not much in material, and very little in labor. It would give you another circuit for whatever.

hodgesco said:

---

Romex can be a biatch to pull through 3/4 conduit (and I believe it also might not be code?). I would use individual #12 wires.

---

Romex IS a ***** to pull thru conduit. It can be done, but the cable has to be de-rated. Stripping the outer sheathing leaves you with individual conductors that will work, but are not technically kosher. The conductors inside Romex are not labeled for use outside the cable assembly. And unless you are buying the chingon rolls of Romex, the individual conductors are generally cheaper.

EDIT: nevermind. I see that you re-labeled the panel as "sub panel." I assume your main panel is located inside the house....not mounted outside?

In any event, I would hate the look of conduit mounted a long horizontal distance to the side of my house. Theoretically, assuming your panel is mounted inside your house on an exterior wall, you/your electrician, should be able to drill a hole through the exterior wall below the the base height of the panel and then tie into the panel from there. In doing this, you might need to remove a small section of sheetrock along the bottom of the panel in order to feed the wire into the panel and provide proper strain relief/short protection. On the outside of the house, the wire can exit into conduit that runs straight into the ground and then horizontal under ground to the shed.

For a 70Ft trench, definitely rent a trencher.

UnderoosAg said:

---

Cow Hop Ag said:

---

Simple...

Run 12/2 romex to any outside wall.

---

Belly crawl thru an attic space to the far reaches, drill down thru the top plate with a right angle drill attachment, fish the cable thru the top plate, miss any horizontal members, and then magically steer the cable thru the sheathing and insulation to a point where you can find it down below from the outside.

FIFY

I should have said SUPER simple for me. For UnderoosAg, maybe not

---

Our main panel is mounted outside the house. Just got the 2nd quote, and it was for $695 - the itemized break down had labor charges at $630, and that includes me doing the digging. So I think I'll be attempting this myself, but my next few weekends are booked so it might be a while.

In the meantime I'll be watching youtube videos/reading up on code, trying to figure out if I actually can do it on my own. And by that mean confident that I'm not going to electrocute myself or burn the house down when adding a circuit break to the panel.

My current (pre-research) plan is to add a 20 Amp 20 Amp Single-Pole Circuit Breaker to the panel, run buried (18 inches deep) 12-3 UF wire through conduit to the shed and connect to a GFCI outlet (which will power the AC unit), and from that outlet run wiring to a keyless fixture w/ pull chain for an led lightbulb.

Anything just blatantly wrong with that plan? If I do decide to do it myself, I would have an electrician come out to certify if for insurance purposes.

That is still way too much. Given that your main panel is outside, you are going exactly what I did for my detached garage. I will try to take and post some pictures this weekend to help you out.

Thank you, I appreciate it. Before I actually begin my efforts I'll be sure to upload my plan/pics of what I'll be working with.

jay040 said:

---

My current (pre-research) plan is to add a 20 Amp 20 Amp Single-Pole Circuit Breaker to the panel, run buried (18 inches deep) 12-3 UF wire through conduit to the shed and connect to a GFCI outlet (which will power the AC unit), and from that outlet run wiring to a keyless fixture w/ pull chain for an led lightbulb.

---

You'll need to confirm whether your panel has a main circuit breaker, and how many other breakers there are. If you do not have a main circuit breaker, you cannot have more than six total circuit breakers in that outside panel. Many new homes are set up to where the outside feeds an interior subpanel, dryer, range, condensing unit, furnace, and water heater. If you have that set up, you technically cannot add a seventh circuit breaker. It has nothing to do with capacity, but rather the "six handle rule" from the NEC section on service equipment.

I wouldn't connect the AC to a GFCI receptacle. You are very likely to have nuisance tripping.

UF is going to be a MF to pull thru 70' of conduit. There's something to be said for having belt and suspenders, but not really in this case. Use either the UF cable, or individual conductors in conduit, but not both.

If you go the UF route, you'll want 12/2 with ground, not 12/3. With 12/3 you'll wind up with an unused insulated conductor. Also agree on not using a GFCI outlet. It would serve no purpose for this application and would likely just be a PITA.

Our house was built in 1993, but the outside panel panel only currently has the water heater and ac system . I had to go out of town this weekend, but I'll post some pictures early next week.

UF cable is rated for direct burial (romex isn't) so you don't need to protect it in conduit. Either direct bury the UF or use conduit with individual conductors for the installation. On the one hand direct burial is easier but on the other hand if you want to change the wires in the future conduit is easier.

12/3 w/ground allows you more flexibility in the future when (not if) you decide to add more lights, outlets or need to run a skillsaw, etc while the AC is on. It does require more room in your panel for a double pole breaker setup but gives you the future flexibility. It also keeps the amps of the light off the hot for the AC unit which reduces the voltage drop to the AC unit. It will cost more to install this configuration but you won't have to redo any of the system to add an outlet (or 3) in the future.

12/2 w/ground minimizes the cost but doesn't give you flexibility for the future. You only need one single pole breaker and you run the AC and light from the same circuit. The voltage drop on the circuit increases when you have the light running while the AC is running. You won't be able to add "much" in the future without having breaker trip issues if you don't turn the AC off before you plug in and run your skillsaw, etc on the outlet you add to this system in the future.

As mentioned earlier at 70 feet the voltage drop from the AC unit is about 2.7 volts which isn't a concern. If you increase the load on the circuit to 15 amps (light, outlets with small things plugged in) the voltage drop goes up to about 4 volts which is very close to 3% which is on the edge for a branch circuit. Increasing the length of the conductors over 70 feet (for whatever reason) or loading this circuit up to its 20 amp trip level increases the voltage drop to levels that could be an issue for the AC unit longevity if the loaded circuit condition is maintained for long periods of time. Using LED lights probably eliminates that concern.

OP. Here is what I did to run 3 20 amp circuits to my garage.

Main breaker panel located on the back of the house. The gray conduit coming out of the box carries individual conductors for the three circuits.



Here is a side view of the conduit going into the panel. I used a heat gun to heat up the PVC until it was pliable in order to make the bend.



The run from my breaker panel to the garage is about 55 ft.



The conduit comes out of the ground and enters the garage via conduit body.



The conduit then travels inside the garage to a 3 gang box (homemade, I know) where the 3 circuits are split out to the garage.

Thanks for the replies everyone, and sorry the the delayed response -

I finally have a free weekend to get to work on this.

One question before I start - I plan on using UF wire for the whole run - for the above ground portion, running from the breaker box to where the wire goes into the ground can I use liquidtight flexible conduit like this?

The description states:

• Use to install and help protect electrical conductors in circuits rated 600 volts nominal or less
• Made with a spiral of rigid PVC reinforcement embedded within a flexible PVC wall
• Crush-resistant construction
• Use in lengths longer than 6 feet
• For use in applications requiring movement, crossover connections or tight bends
• Ideal for use in conditions of installation, operation or maintenance where flexibility is required, or when the protection from liquids, vapors, solids and weather is needed

Due to the terrain/slope/obstructions, a flexible conduit would allow me to nestle it up to the house easier than normal pvc. Is this a code violation?

Also, to shut off power to the main breaker, I have to cut the electric meter lock that my local power company has on there. If I call them for a heads up/permission, will they give me crap because I'm not a licensed electrician?

Bad juju to cut the meter seal. Best case you get yelled at. Worst case you get accused of theft of electric service. Need for an electrician/permit depends on where you are and your utility.

And just for ****s and giggles, Google pulling meter arc flash.

Edit:. Are you talking about a lock on the meter or on your gear?

I'll post a link to the image here, since it's kind of a big photo.

So last night I turned off all the breakers and open it up, only to realize that there's still power to it. To shut off power completely to the panel I need top open up the box that the meter is attached to, but at the bottom, not shown in the picture, it a little meter lock. I've contacted my utility company about it.

UnderoosAg said:

---

Bad juju to cut the meter seal. Best case you get yelled at. Worst case you get accused of theft of electric service. Need for an electrician/permit depends on where you are and your utility.

And just for ****s and giggles, Google pulling meter arc flash.

Edit:. Are you talking about a lock on the meter or on your gear?

---

Yep, Meter Arc Flash is not what anyone wants to deal with...

jay040 said:

---

I'll post a link to the image here, since it's kind of a big photo.

So last night I turned off all the breakers and open it up, only to realize that there's still power to it. To shut off power completely to the panel I need top open up the box that the meter is attached to, but at the bottom, not shown in the picture, it a little meter lock. I've contacted my utility company about it.

---

Guess I'm confused as to why you need to shut power off to that sub-panel to install the new feeder conduit, wire and breaker...so why do you need the power shut off? All the work will be done at the bottom portion of the box so just be careful and stay clear of the feeder connections at the top and you should be fine! Am I missing something?

Quote:

---

Guess I'm confused as to why you need to shut power off to that sub-panel to install the new feeder conduit, wire and breaker...so why do you need the power shut off? All the work will be done at the bottom portion of the box so just be careful and stay clear of the feeder connections at the top and you should be fine! Am I missing something?

---

I guess I didn't realize that all of it didn't need to be shut off.

Do you know if the flexible conduit is okay?

And UnderoosAg, did you mention arc flashes just so I'm aware of them, or is there something about my plan that makes you think one is more likely?

jay040 said:

---

And UnderoosAg, did you mention arc flashes just so I'm aware of them, or is there something about my plan that makes you think one is more likely?

---

He was just making you aware of the possibility of what can occur if/when YOU pull the meter if you aren't properly protected and know what you're doing...it's a risk/danger you don't want to happen!

I see - so working around the feeder connections is the safer option?

jay040 said:

---

I see - so working around the feeder connections is the safer option?

---

Yes, much safer...it's when the meter is actually pulled to kill power to the service panel is when the Arc Flash danger can potentially occur!

Quote:

---

Do you know if the flexible conduit is okay?

---

Yes, LFNC is okay for that application and it's okay to bury provided it states as such on the packaging box...and your local codes allow it. It's used in 2 applications on my current house, however neither enter the ground. Just be sure to use the correct connectors to connect the LFNC to the PVC and the sub-panel so you have a water tight connection.

BTW, if it were me, I'd put a short oversized piece of PVC or some other sleeve material over the LFNC at the base of cable where it enters the ground to protect it when you weedeat the area. Just a little added protection as I'm kinda OCD like that!

Thanks for all of y'alls help in preventing me from killing myself. Along that line, I have some more questions.

In my main panel, there is some large object (see red arrow) blocking the free holes on the bus bar. I don't know what it is. I'm assuming that I can't put both the neutral (white) and grounding wire on the same bus? image

I went ahead and opened up the sub-panel in my garage to see if I could run the wire through the attic in case my main panel was a no-go, and it appears that on the left bus bar, they have multiple neutral wires in the same holes, but lots of open on the right bus bar where the grounding wires are. Is it safe to put multiple neutral (white wires in the same bus hole? image

jay040 said:

---

Thanks for all of y'alls help in preventing me from killing myself. Along that line, I have some more questions.

In my main panel, there is some large object (see red arrow) blocking the free holes on the bus bar. I don't know what it is. I'm assuming that I can't put both the neutral (white) and grounding wire on the same bus? image

I went ahead and opened up the sub-panel in my garage to see if I could run the wire through the attic in case my main panel was a no-go, and it appears that on the left bus bar, they have multiple neutral wires in the same holes, but lots of open on the right bus bar where the grounding wires are. Is it safe to put multiple neutral (white wires in the same bus hole? image

---

Jay, in order for me to respond with confidence, can you get a pic of both panels from a distance a little further back so I can properly trace the wiring as too much is cropped off in the exiting pics to adequately trace them?

I'll give you a response the best I can based on what I can tell and will differ to UnderoosAg for a ruling on this as he's the expert, but here goes! As far as the large object, if I'm not mistaken that is a bonding block connected to your neutral buss that connects (bonds) both your neutral buss and your ground buss together for the feed to your sub-panel in the garage. UnderoosAg????

Since this is your main panel, you can put both the neutral and ground wires on the same buss...but only in the main panel. The following link provides further information to that effect:

Is it ok to have mixed grounds and neutrals on bars in a breaker box?

Based on that and the fact that you have multiple open slots available on the buss bar on the right side of your panel, you have adequate slots to make your A/C feed over breaker connection within this panel.

Now as far as your second question, no it is not safe to put mutiple neutral wires in the same buss hole, also known as double lugging. Reason being that the neutral wires could eventually come loose enough to heat up and cause a fire...therefore it's against Code to do so, even though it was done like that many years ago before Code made it a No No, and therefore it's probably one of the most written up issues found during home inspections. You can double lug the grounds but not the neutrals.

In order to resolve the netrual double lugging issue (and correct me if I'm wrong on this UnderoosAg) remove both double lugged wires from the slot, pigtail them together with a proper pigtail and then connect the pigtail end into the open hole and you're good to go!

Also note that by Code, you cannot put both the neutral and ground wires on the same buss within any sub-panels, only the main panel. You have to keep the neutrals on the neutral buss bar and the ground wires on the ground buss bar in sub-panels. This was also addressed in the link above.

Hope this helps and UnderoosAg, please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this! TIA

Quote:

---

I'll give you a response the best I can based on what I can tell and will differ to UnderoosAg for a ruling on this as he's the expert, but here goes! As far as the large object, if I'm not mistaken that is a bonding block connected to your neutral buss that connects (bonds) both your neutral buss and your ground buss together for the feed to your sub-panel in the garage. UnderoosAg????

Since this is your main panel, you can put both the neutral and ground wires on the same buss...but only in the main panel. The following link provides further information to that effect:

---

I think you're correct, I hope these pictures help.

main panel pic1

main panel pic2

sub-panel

what he said.

You main panel is your "service equipment." The neutral and ground are bonded together via the main bonding jumper within service equipment, but only at service equipment. This is not done at any other downstream panel you can create ground loops or introduce stray currents where you don't want them. Because the neutral and ground are bonded together at the main panel, you could use either bus bar if you had to.

There is a code requirement which prohibits double lugging on the neutral bus bar. You can double lug a ground bus bar only if the bus bar is listed for such a connection, and the wires are the same size. Some bus bars are listed, and will usually state on the equipment label, for multiple wires on the same terminal.