When to pull the flagstick? Is Bryson wrong.

2,279 Views | 26 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Trinity Ag
WhoopN06
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https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time

BreNayPop
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AG
so in for longer putts to help vision and green reading, out for shorter putts? sounds like science isnt settled yet.
Trinity Ag
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S
Bottom line of the article is that you are more likely to make putts that hit the cup off-center without the pin, because putts that would otherwise drop deflect off the flag stick, and stay out of the hole.

I can buy that.

But there are a couple of variables the testing didn't consider -- namely uphill vs downhill. And also the angle of the flag stick (due to lean or wind).

I've been leaving the pin in on long, downhill putts where I am much more likely to get the speed wrong, and pulling it otherwise.
Forum Troll
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AG
I only pull if its leaning towards me.
Forum Troll
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AG
Trinity Ag said:

Bottom line of the article is that you are more likely to make putts that hit the cup off-center without the pin, because putts that would otherwise drop deflect off the flag stick, and stay out of the hole.

I can buy that.

But there are a couple of variables the testing didn't consider -- namely uphill vs downhill. And also the angle of the flag stick (due to lean or wind).

I've been leaving the pin in on long, downhill putts where I am much more likely to get the speed wrong, and pulling it otherwise.


I've watched a ton of golf this season and the only flagstick deflection I can recall is Furyk on that long putt at TPC. Bryson and Adam Scott haven't been dinking them off of the stick the whole season.
Poot
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So far I've kind of been taking it on a cases by case basis, but only really for longer putts. I've seen my fair share of shots around the greens that 100% would have gone in had it not been for the glance off the stick. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I missed a 3 footer that glanced off the stick.

Long putt (25'+):

Pin leaning towards me: always pull or tend.

Windy or gusty? Pull or tend

Downhill or flat, with little or no wind... been toying with leaving it in, with varied results. I've been playing putting one way for almost 30 years now, so it's really strange from an optics stand point. I'm not sure I'll ever be totally comfortable with it... Guess we'll see.
BTD
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Answer: leaving in saves time. Leave it in.
Golf1
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AG
Once this rule became a thing I've been leaving it in because of the fact that it just saves time. After playing for the past couple of weeks though I have been pulling it more of just a mental stage of the game. I feel more confident when it is out for some reason. with that being said, I only pull it when I feel I have makable putts.
Mr.Bond
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AG
Mental for me on putts inside 10-12 ft I pull it
Im looking for Ray Finkle.... and a clean pair of shorts. Im just a very big Finkle fan. This is my Graceland, sir.




austinag1997
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AG
Rule is you can leave it or remove it. Nobody is wrong or right for either action.

I leave the pin in almost all the time.
AggieDruggist89
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AG
I like to leave my stick in. Always. You should too.

All jokes aside, I hit a 98 yard cut slight uphill against the wind with a GW and holed it on the fly today. It certainly hit the pin and I think it helped.
The Milkman
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AG
I typically leave it in when I play by myself simply for speed. When I'm with others we always take it out.

However, I can say with confidence I've had a lot more shots in my life saved by a pin than I've had hurt by the pin.
watty
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AG
LOL Bryson is right.

It's amazing to me how many people will turn a blind eye to science simply because of their feelings or because it just goes against what has always been done.
khaos288
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AG
watty said:

LOL Bryson is right.

It's amazing to me how many people will turn a blind eye to science simply because of their feelings or because it just goes against what has always been done.


The title of the article is literally "the science behind..." and it goes on to talk about the science.
watty
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AG
Ok I just read through it all, and I'm intrigued. Data matters, and on the surface it seems they might be on to something. It's at odds with other experiments though so I don't think there's a clear verdict yet overall but I'm open to switching my opinion.
WhoopN06
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Nm
watty
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AG
There is one flaw that stands out to me in the article. This statement:

Quote:

So that's the only time the flagstick will help a putt go in the hole that would not have gone in otherwise. The rest of the time99.99 percentthe better play is to putt with the flagstick out of the hole.

That is not an accurate statement (the last part). Probably an error on the part of the writer as opposed to the guy that did the experiment though.

It should read "the rest of the time... there was no difference."

As for when to leave it out or in based on this article, I'd say it is clear that you should leave it in any putt that has any chance whatsoever of running past the hole by more than 8 feet. For amateurs, that's a lot more often than for pros. I'd say for amateurs, basically any putt outside of 10-15 feet would likely see just as much benefit from speed control as it would from the minute chance of glancing the flag.

Either way, it's going to be a tiny tiny amount of affect regardless of what you choose. You might play all year and never have it affect your score.
watty
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AG
And yes I posted that first thing without reading the article. Stupid of me but I'll leave my stupidity up for all to see. When it comes down to it, I'm all about the data. Totally willing to switch my mind based on new data. Which for me means I think I'll probably start pulling the flag on shorter putts after reading this.
watty
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AG
The ".999" number is clearly ridiculous though, for the record.
DannyDuberstein
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AG
Yeah, the speed control dynamic is definitely the critical piece with amateurs that tends to be a lot more variable.

I just know this - have played a ton of golf this year leaving the pin in almost 100% of the time, and between me and my playing partners, I've seen exactly one putt where the pin may have prevented it from dropping. It was the glancing blow the article calls out, but it was also a long putt with a decent amount of speed and may very well have not dropped anyway. For most of us amateurs, I think it probably helps a little more than hurts on the whole, but is largely much ado about nothing.
WhoopN06
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I basically agree with the conclusions you came too. Leave it in for longer putts not because it will help me make them because it might keep a firmer putt close to the hole.

I always pull it inside 15 ft.
PJYoung
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AG
Last week I murdered a putt from 25 feet and the pin saved me. I only had 7 feet coming back.
Mateo84
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AG
I had a putt recently that glanced off the flag that most definitely would have gone in had the flag not been in. Didn't realize until I got close to the cup that the flag was leaning toward me more than usual because it was not seated totally in the bottom of the cup. Now if I leave the flag in to putt, I take a close/quick look at the cup before doing so.
aggiedent
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AG
I made a huge mistake when I was younger, practicing my putting. I always left the flag in. Because of that, during rounds, I really struggled aiming correctly on anything over 10 feet. Yes, a lot of that is mental.

With the new rule, my putting has transcended to where my playing partners are stunned by my new putting prowess. So for me......the pin always stays in.
Kage00
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Different study, very different results!

https://mygolfspy.com/flagstick-in-flagstick-out-2019-new-golf-rules/
DannyDuberstein
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AG
Interesting. The 2nd one makes more sense compared to what I've seen firsthand. Also, while the first study locks in on 7-8' too long still going in with the pin out, it did acknowledge that once the speed is faster than that, almost nothing goes in with the pin out while pin in holds at 100% for quite a bit longer.

I'm still at for longer putts (>12-15 feet), it makes more sense to leave it in, while for shorter putts I just don't think it matters either way for more than 1 stroke in a blue moon. Big picture, whatever fits your eye and boosts your confidence would be best.
PJYoung
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AG
DannyDuberstein said:

Interesting. The 2nd one makes more sense compared to what I've seen firsthand. Also, while the first study locks in on 7-8' too long still going in with the pin out, it did acknowledge that once the speed is faster than that, almost nothing goes in with the pin out while pin in holds at 100% for quite a bit longer.

I'm still at for longer putts (>12-15 feet), it makes more sense to leave it in, while for shorter putts I just don't think it matters either way for more than 1 stroke in a blue moon. Big picture, whatever fits your eye and boosts your confidence would be best.

Yep. Putting is a confidence game.
Trinity Ag
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S
The "4' to 8' past the hole" metric is goofy in the study, because that will vary based on the speed of the greens.

On greens the pros putt, a trickling putt can roll 8' past if it is downhill.

The velocity of the ball will determine flag deflect, not the calculation of how far past it will run if you miss -- which depends on angle and green speed.

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