Phil scenario - hypothetical

11,373 Views | 235 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by jja79
mt3950
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Phil is catching **** for his quick rake (or whatever you want to call it) and rightfully so. Here's a situation I was thinking about...Not 100% sure if this is correct, but I think I'm interpreting the rules the right way.

Scenario: I have a 4-5 foot putt that's crazy downhill and will likely roll off the green and 10-15yds down the fairway if I run it by too far. I miss the putt, and it indeed runs off the green and down the fairway 15 yds. Can't I take an unplayable and play my next shot from the previous location (4-5 ft from hole) and take a 1 stroke penalty? I get it, it's not how it "should" be done, but that's within the rules isn't it?
WhoopN06
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100%. That's why Phil's explanation makes no sense. He could have taken an unplayable for a 1 stroke penalty and replayed the putt.

That would have saved at least one stroke.

I imagine USGA77 will be able to give a much more detailed response / information.
agsalaska
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Im not sure he should be taking too much **** for it. But I would rather him just say that he was frustrated and pissed off which is probably a lot closer to the truth.
WhoopN06
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I think Phil, rightly or wrongly, blames the USGA setup in 04 for costing him the win. This was a not so subtle form of protest of that and what he felt like was a very unfair pin location.
Ags77
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If Phil would have said "hey I lost my cool. I was frustrated by what I thought was an unfair set up ", I would feel better about him and the incident. Instead, I think he got caught in a lie. He was quoted after the round that he knew the two shot penalty and thought he just used it to his advantage. Turns out two people have now said Phil walked off the green saying I have no idea what i made on the hole. And then he talked to Mike Davis and asked him what the penalty was and said he would accept it. It was a BAD look for Phil, but like his wife Amy said, he is human and just made a mistake.
Gigem
jja79
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Did he call the penalty on himself?
Ags77
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I dont think so
Gigem
jja79
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Isn't that a problem? He said it was a calculated move. If so he knows the cost but didn't assess it.
JYDog90
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I don't get this narrative that if Phil just told the truth from the beginning things wouldn't be this bad.

I believe the story he told was the truth. It would have been far easier to make it out to be some protest, a statement on the USGA and villify them. But he didn't do that. He said he took a calculated action, knew the rules and did what he did. I respect him for saying what he did because then it wasn't about the usga, it was all on him.

But immediately after his interview with Strange, Buck, Zinger, et al start accusing him of fabricating a tale. Phil is getting punished for telling the truth.
Ags77
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willie wonka said:

I don't get this narrative that if Phil just told the truth from the beginning things wouldn't be this bad.

I believe the story he told was the truth. It would have been far easier to make it out to be some protest, a statement on the USGA and villify them. But he didn't do that. He said he took a calculated action, knew the rules and did what he did. I respect him for saying what he did because then it wasn't about the usga, it was all on him.

But immediately after his interview with Strange, Buck, Zinger, et al start accusing him of fabricating a tale. Phil is getting punished for telling the truth.


Then why did he tell the guy he was playing with that he had no idea what he just made on the hole ?Just give me what I made. And why did he ask Mike Davis later what the penalty was ?
Gigem
jja79
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Why didn't he call the penalty on himself? Why did the officials have to?
powerbelly
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jja79 said:

Why didn't he call the penalty on himself? Why did the officials have to?
He didn't know what the number of strokes was, but he called it on himself and asked for the number of strokes. This isn't that hard.
Wildcat
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People keep stating that he could "take an unplayable". It would seem to me that given where that ball could have eventually stopped, this would be just as much of an abuse of the rule as giving it a whack while still moving. The ball is off the green and down the hill and you are calling it "unplayable"? Why? It's not like there is a natural obstruction to the shot. Sure, you can technically do it by the letter of the rules, I suppose. But who does that in an official round?

There would be just as much pissing and moaning about the spirit of the rule, game, sportsmanship, etc, as there is over this stunt.
SmackDaddy
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With the move to not eliminate players from tournaments for signing an incorrect scorecard you don't have to know every penalty for every move you make on a course anymore. Players are told all the time during a round what the penalty assessment will be, regardless of whether they agree with it.

Here's the thing that tells me Phil should have been DQ'd: If my 12 year old son was playing in a tournament and he did that I'd want to pull him off the course and spank his butt.

He's a grown man that's played over a thousand rounds of competitive golf, he acted like he was 12 and intended to gain a competitive advantage and I suspect he WANTED to be DQ'd.
powerbelly
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Quote:

intended to gain a competitive advantage
No he didn't.
DannyDuberstein
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Wildcat said:

People keep stating that he could "take an unplayable". It would seem to me that given where that ball could have eventually stopped, this would be just as much of an abuse of the rule as giving it a whack while still moving. The ball is off the green and down the hill and you are calling it "unplayable"? Why? It's not like there is a natural obstruction to the shot. Sure, you can technically do it by the letter of the rules, I suppose. But who does that in an official round?

There would be just as much pissing and moaning about the spirit of the rule, game, sportsmanship, etc, as there is over this stunt.
Yeah, I wish we could see what the reaction to that would have been. Likely the same.

I just don't have an issue with what Phil did. Striking a ball in motion like he did comes with a severe penalty - it's basically going to cost you 3 shots, and he took it. There's no reason for the penalty to be so severe except to address exactly what he did. That's why I think the DQ talk is totally ****ing ridiculous. Was it the most advisable thing to do? Maybe not. But it's just not a federal case to me.
oldag00
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I'd argue that tour pros use the rules to gain a competitive advantage on a routine basis. The rules are the rules. Sometimes they penalize you. Sometimes they help you.

I remember playing a tournament where my ball ended up in a position off the tee so that I couldn't hit it at the green due to an OB fence (i.e. no free relief). However, to address the ball, I had to stand on a cart path. Hello free drop, which allowed me a swing free of interference from the fence, and I was able to advance it to the green. Knowing the rules saved me a stroke from taking an unplayable ball drop.
WhoopN06
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How does everyone feel about the drop(s) Speith got at the Open last year?
jja79
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1-1. General

The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules.
1-2. Exerting Influence on Movement of Ball or Altering Physical Conditions
A player must not (i) take an action with the intent to influence the movement of a ball in play or (ii) alter physical conditions with the intent of affecting the playing of a hole.

*In the case of a serious breach of Rule 1-2, the Committee may impose a penalty of disqualification.

Forget the penalty. The guy wasn't going to win. The thing to me, and maybe no one else, was the blatant disregard for the rule. It doesn't say the player should not take an action with the intent of influencing the movement of a ball in play. It say he must not.
SmackDaddy
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powerbelly said:


Quote:

intended to gain a competitive advantage
No he didn't.


Well then what do you describe "I just didn't want to go back and forth hitting the ball"? He wanted the hole to be over.

They should have thrown his ass out of the tournament after the interview.
SmackDaddy
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DannyDuberstein said:

Wildcat said:

People keep stating that he could "take an unplayable". It would seem to me that given where that ball could have eventually stopped, this would be just as much of an abuse of the rule as giving it a whack while still moving. The ball is off the green and down the hill and you are calling it "unplayable"? Why? It's not like there is a natural obstruction to the shot. Sure, you can technically do it by the letter of the rules, I suppose. But who does that in an official round?

There would be just as much pissing and moaning about the spirit of the rule, game, sportsmanship, etc, as there is over this stunt.
Yeah, I wish we could see what the reaction to that would have been. Likely the same.

I just don't have an issue with what Phil did. Striking a ball in motion like he did comes with a severe penalty - it's basically going to cost you 3 shots, and he took it. There's no reason for the penalty to be so severe except to address exactly what he did. That's why I think the DQ talk is totally ****ing ridiculous. Was it the most advisable thing to do? Maybe not. But it's just not a federal case to me.


Isn't golf a gentleman's game? Is that the way it would be drawn up to behave as a gentleman?

It was funny that he was so frustrated that he did that...but completely embarrassing to him.

People hate Patrick reed because he supposedly cheated at UGA. Maybe if only he could have hit a moving ball and added two strokes It would all be different for him.
WhoopN06
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SmackDaddy said:

powerbelly said:


Quote:

intended to gain a competitive advantage
No he didn't.


Well then what do you describe "I just didn't want to go back and forth hitting the ball"? He wanted the hole to be over.

They should have thrown his ass out of the tournament after the interview.


I don't understand this competitive advantage angle. Did a bunch of other players take 6 strokes to get in the hole from above the pin on the green from 20 ft on Saturday? Phil took 5 strokes with the penalty. How was that a competitive advantage?
powerbelly
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SmackDaddy said:

powerbelly said:


Quote:

intended to gain a competitive advantage
No he didn't.


Well then what do you describe "I just didn't want to go back and forth hitting the ball"? He wanted the hole to be over.

They should have thrown his ass out of the tournament after the interview.

For what exactly?
watty
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People complaining about Phil and saying he should have been DQ'd are why people make fun of golf fans. He made a choice, got the penalty that goes with it, and moved on. It's just like a defensive back that blatantly interferes with a receiver and gets penalized for it. It's not cheating. It's making a choice in the moment. It doesn't matter what his intentions were. Completely irrelevant. It's a game with choices and scoring and penalties and the fact that anyone thinks this is even an issue is hilarious to me. And I'm as obsessed with golf as anyone here, lest I get the "you're not a REAL golf person" criticism.

Chill out. Like Phil said, toughen up. THIS IS NOT A BIG DEAL.
JYDog90
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I agree completely.

This has all the same tenor of Mark May's criticism of Johnny Manziel "bringing shame to the game" that most of these folks laughed about.
WhoopN06
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Amen
SmackDaddy
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jja79 said:

1-1. General

The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules.
1-2. Exerting Influence on Movement of Ball or Altering Physical Conditions
A player must not (i) take an action with the intent to influence the movement of a ball in play or (ii) alter physical conditions with the intent of affecting the playing of a hole.

*In the case of a serious breach of Rule 1-2, the Committee may impose a penalty of disqualification.

Forget the penalty. The guy wasn't going to win. The thing to me, and maybe no one else, was the blatant disregard for the rule. It doesn't say the player should not take an action with the intent of influencing the movement of a ball in play. It say he must not.


For all you "toughen up" guys, golf is different. He blatantly influenced the movement of a ball in play. The USGA chose the easy way out with a 2 stroke penalty. They should have enforced 1-2.
SmackDaddy
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WhoopN06 said:

SmackDaddy said:

powerbelly said:


Quote:

intended to gain a competitive advantage
No he didn't.


Well then what do you describe "I just didn't want to go back and forth hitting the ball"? He wanted the hole to be over.

They should have thrown his ass out of the tournament after the interview.


I don't understand this competitive advantage angle. Did a bunch of other players take 6 strokes to get in the hole from above the pin on the green from 20 ft on Saturday? Phil took 5 strokes with the penalty. How was that a competitive advantage?


And you know what he WOULD have gotten exactly how? It's not about what others got, it's about his score.
powerbelly
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SmackDaddy said:

jja79 said:

1-1. General

The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules.
1-2. Exerting Influence on Movement of Ball or Altering Physical Conditions
A player must not (i) take an action with the intent to influence the movement of a ball in play or (ii) alter physical conditions with the intent of affecting the playing of a hole.

*In the case of a serious breach of Rule 1-2, the Committee may impose a penalty of disqualification.

Forget the penalty. The guy wasn't going to win. The thing to me, and maybe no one else, was the blatant disregard for the rule. It doesn't say the player should not take an action with the intent of influencing the movement of a ball in play. It say he must not.


For all you "toughen up" guys, golf is different. He blatantly influenced the movement of a ball in play. The USGA chose the easy way out with a 2 stroke penalty. They should have enforced 1-2.
Why? He violated 14-5, not 1-2.
jja79
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He didn't take an action that influenced the movement of a ball in play?

Either way it wasn't a good situation. It was a bad look.
powerbelly
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jja79 said:

Either way it wasn't a good situation. It was a bad look.
Agree on both points.
oldag00
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powerbelly said:

jja79 said:

Either way it wasn't a good situation. It was a bad look.
Agree on both points.
I agree with this take, too.

He should have let the putt finish and then taken the stroke and distance option for unplayable and played again from the original spot.
643coach
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I'm still wondering why after he hit the putt he didn't run to meet the ball at the hole and then knock it in when it went past. Would've saved him 2 strokes.
SmackDaddy
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The first time that happens in a tournament the USGA will change the rule immediately.
tlfw378
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golfdigest.com/story/us-open-2018-the-usga-still-got-it-wrong-when-it-didnt-dq-phil-mickelson/amp

I like what Feinstein writes...bad week for Phil, worse week for USGA.
 
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