Hall v. McRaven set for oral argument

6,273 Views | 31 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by Smithjg
HTownAg98
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Remember the case where sip regent Hall was trying to look into the sip admission records for the sip law school, and the whole "preferred admissions" policy that the sip president was using to get kickbacks for allowing unqualified students into the law school? Well, the Texas Supreme Court has decided to hear oral arguments in the case, and it is set for Wednesday January 11. Hall lost at the district court and appellate court, but the Texas Supreme Court generally doesn't hear cases where they agree on the lower court or where there's no conflict among the appellate courts. Plus, every amicus filed in the case save for one has been in support of Hall.
BohunkAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Thanks
The Wonderer
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Wow. I have mediation that day, but I'm hoping to get to listen in.
Jack Squat 83
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Finally, a reason to watch the LHN.
OKG2000
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
AGobbler83 said:

Finally, a reason to watch the LHN.
ha, that would be great, however, is there somewhere we can watch?
HTownAg98
How long do you want to ignore this user?
The Texas Supreme Court will usually live stream the oral arguments. If not, I know there is an audio feed. I will warn you though, it will likely be very boring, mostly arguing over procedural stuff.
McInnis80
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Can some of you legal eagles explain UT's argument for me? Mr. Hall is a Regent of the UT System, the nine member board appointed by the Governor, confirmed by the State Senate, that is responsible for oversight of the institutions that are owned by the State. When there is a question about people getting preferential treatment in admission to UT undergrad and UT law, a Regent is not entitled to view the document or ask questions about who was admitted and who pulled the strings?

I know that McRaven is trying to run out the clock on Hall, but since the Court took the case may not be a good sign for McRaven. On another note, it will be interesting to see how UT fares in their efforts to change the 10% rule. It is going to be hard to tell a rural Legislator that UT would should take fewer students from rural and inner city districts so that they can take more out of state and foreign students with higher test scores.
Jaxson11
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
You have to admire Hall's tenacity. The media and some very influential people have tried hard to ruin him.
WestAustinAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Texas Supreme Court Justices and the schools that they attended (undergrad and law);

Chief Justice Hecht - Justice Hecht holds a B.A. degree with honors in philosophy from Yale University, and a J.D. degree cum laude from the SMU School of Law

Paul W Green - A native of San Antonio, Justice Green received his business degree from the University of Texas at Austin in 1974 and his law degree from St. Mary's University School of Law in 1977.

Phil Johnson - Justice Johnson attended Texas Tech University School of Law, where he was a member of the law review and graduated with honors in 1975.

Don R. Willet - A native Texan, Justice Willett earned a triple-major BBA from Baylor University and his J.D. with honors along with an A.M. in political science from Duke University.

Eva Guzman - Justice Guzman enjoyed a successful 10-year career in Houston. She holds a B.B.A. from the University of Houston, a law degree from South Texas College and an LL.M. from Duke University School of Law.

Debra - Lehrmann - A member of Phi Beta Kappa, Justice Lehrmann graduated from the University of Texas in 1979 and the University of Texas School of Law in 1982. Her son Jonathan goes to UT.

Jeffrey S Boyd - Boyd is a graduate of Abilene Christian University and earned his law degree summa cum laude from Pepperdine University

John Devine - A native of Indiana, Justice Devine attended Ball State University, graduating in 1980 with a B.S. degree in business administration and Marketing. While at Shell, he was accepted by South Texas College of Law, graduating with a juris doctorate in 1986.

Jeff Brown - He earned his bachelor's degree in English from the University of Texas and his law degree with high honors from the University of Houston.
HTownAg98
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Your assertion is basically correct, though McRaven has also claimed that Hall should have sued to whole board, not just McRaven. That argument falls flat because the rules require McRaven, not the whole board, to deny Hall's request. The board vote to deny Hall is just window dressing, partly because they voted to change the rule once regents found out that some of them may be implicated.
88jrt06
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Jaxson11 said:

You have to admire Hall's tenacity. The media and some very influential people have tried hard to ruin him.
For doing his job.

Two thumbs up, Mr. Hall.
Bitter Old Man
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
So, who is paying all the legal fees for this sh t show? I'm guessing the taxpayers are covering both sides, is that right?
schwack schwack
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/higher-education/2017/01/23/wallace-hall-ut-regent-gov-greg-abbott-signals-end-rancorous-era-texas-higher-education

He gone.
Rocco S
How long do you want to ignore this user?
HTownAg98 said:

Remember the case where sip regent Hall was trying to look into the sip admission records for the sip law school, and the whole "preferred admissions" policy that the sip president was using to get kickbacks for allowing unqualified students into the law school? Well, the Texas Supreme Court has decided to hear oral arguments in the case, and it is set for Wednesday January 11. Hall lost at the district court and appellate court, but the Texas Supreme Court generally doesn't hear cases where they agree on the lower court or where there's no conflict among the appellate courts. Plus, every amicus filed in the case save for one has been in support of Hall.
Mr. Satterfield, this looks very redneck.
HTownAg98
How long do you want to ignore this user?
schwack schwack said:

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/higher-education/2017/01/23/wallace-hall-ut-regent-gov-greg-abbott-signals-end-rancorous-era-texas-higher-education

He gone.

That wasn't a surprise. It's also why he asked for an expedited hearing before the Supreme Court so that they could hopefully rule before his term expired. Two of his cohorts on the Board were also replaced, which is as shocking as finding out that water is wet.
Decay
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
This is about as clear-cut as it gets in regards to whistle blowing, shooting the messenger, crony politics, improper firing, and so on.

Hell, if you get underpaid at 7-11 and report your boss you are protected better than this.
StephenvilleAg77
How long do you want to ignore this user?
It wouldn't be a surprise to anyone with a brain if some of the Utex-austin ticket office felonies were connected to the Utex-austin Admissions scandal.

HTownAg98
How long do you want to ignore this user?
The worst part is hardly anyone knows about it. The Austin media sure as hell isn't reporting it.
schwack schwack
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Jim Schutze @ the Dallas Observer is about the only one that's hammered them about it & but now he's preoccupied with the John Wiley Price corruption trial set to start in Feb.
StephenvilleAg77
How long do you want to ignore this user?
The odds that the Austin AAS, HouChron, DMN, or SA Express will ever do any serious investigative reporting on these Utex scandals are slightly less than your chances of sleeping with Christie Brinkley tonight.
McInnis80
How long do you want to ignore this user?
A group associated with Empower Texas was pushing this, but they have gone quiet. Empower Texas looks at House Speaker Joe Straus as public enemy number one, and some of the politicians involved has ties to Straus. As a general matter, they are not fans of public education, but this was a means to end. Now that Straus is untouchable for another 2 years, they have given up the fight.

I think it is ironic when George W. Bush applied to UT Law, his application was denied due to low grades and LSAT scores. Now when far less qualified scions of Austin politicians gain admission to UT Law, it's no big deal. UT law is not quiet a golden ticket, but it's as close as we have in this state. As for Bush, he turned out OK. Last time I checked, the "special" admits to UT were struggling to pass the bar. Dan Patrick is the only one who could bring this back up, but he is too busy trying to pass his bathroom bill.
88jrt06
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
McInnis80 said:

A group associated with Empower Texas was pushing this, but they have gone quiet. Empower Texas looks at House Speaker Joe Straus as public enemy number one, and some of the politicians involved has ties to Straus. As a general matter, they are not fans of public education, but this was a means to end. Now that Straus is untouchable for another 2 years, they have given up the fight.

I think it is ironic when George W. Bush applied to UT Law, his application was denied due to low grades and LSAT scores. Now when far less qualified scions of Austin politicians gain admission to UT Law, it's no big deal. UT law is not quiet a golden ticket, but it's as close as we have in this state. As for Bush, he turned out OK. Last time I checked, the "special" admits to UT were struggling to pass the bar. Dan Patrick is the only one who could bring this back up, but he is too busy trying to pass his bathroom bill.


G Dub is a horrendous example, given his Ivy legacy BS.
Plus, he's really, really dumb.

Patrick couldn't get into ANY legit law school. Huge dumbass. Probably couldn't get into u'grad at either flagship.

However, they're as qualified as the Highland Park idiot children. Do they have Flint water up there?
Bitter Old Man
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Quote:


G Dub is a horrendous example, given his Ivy legacy BS.
Plus, he's really, really dumb.

Curious, do you actually know GWB? Or, is your "really, really dumb" characterization based solely on a Will Ferrell impression or something else you saw on TV?

I've met W., and the people I know who know him say he's actually very intelligent, maybe more intelligent than Obama (GASP!). His personality comes off as Country Dumb, and he's not nearly as arrogant as Obama who wants everyone to know how smart he is. GWB graduated from Yale, and has his Harvard MBA. Yes, he was a Yale legacy, but if you think he was able to skate through Yale because of who his dad was, then you might want to get a calendar. His dad was a West Texas oil man when he was accepted to Yale and had not even started his political career. GHWB had made some good money, but certainly was not a captain of industry or political heavy weight that would hold major influence at Yale/Harvard. I will grant you that he wasn't a 4.0 student, but grades are not the determinant of intelligence, just one indicator.

I'm getting tired of this left wing talking point getting presented as fact in our history. The only people who are "really, really dumb" are the people who think GWB is "really, really dumb."
Falsedawn
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Bitter Old Man said:

Quote:


G Dub is a horrendous example, given his Ivy legacy BS.
Plus, he's really, really dumb.

Curious, do you actually know GWB? Or, is your "really, really dumb" characterization based solely on a Will Ferrell impression or something else you saw on TV?

I've met W., and the people I know who know him say he's actually very intelligent, maybe more intelligent than Obama (GASP!). His personality comes off as Country Dumb, and he's not nearly as arrogant as Obama who wants everyone to know how smart he is. GWB graduated from Yale, and has his Harvard MBA. Yes, he was a Yale legacy, but if you think he was able to skate through Yale because of who his dad was, then you might want to get a calendar. His dad was a West Texas oil man when he was accepted to Yale and had not even started his political career. GHWB had made some good money, but certainly was not a captain of industry or political heavy weight that would hold major influence at Yale/Harvard. I will grant you that he wasn't a 4.0 student, but grades are not the determinant of intelligence, just one indicator.

I'm getting tired of this left wing talking point getting presented as fact in our history. The only people who are "really, really dumb" are the people who think GWB is "really, really dumb."

Yeah...being dumb and being educated aren't mutually exclusive.

HTH
McInnis80
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I was not throwing GWB under the bus, but his LSAT and college grades were not stellar, which is the main thing that they look at for law school admission. Bush had mediocre grades from Yale, but he turned out OK. He did get admitted the Harvard MBA program, which is higher on the food chain than UT Law.

The son of the Chairman of the Appropriations Committee get a special admit for UT Law. How much did that cost the taxpayers of Texas? Don't forget that this is a zero sum game. For every "friends and family admit" another student was left out. Is it any wonder why people hate politicians? Since Pitts and Powers are now gone, there is no big push to continue the investigation. The Governor basically said this with his new selections to the UT Board. No boat rockers here.
88jrt06
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Bitter Old Man said:

Quote:


G Dub is a horrendous example, given his Ivy legacy BS.
Plus, he's really, really dumb.

Curious, do you actually know GWB? Or, is your "really, really dumb" characterization based solely on a Will Ferrell impression or something else you saw on TV?

I've met W., and the people I know who know him say he's actually very intelligent, maybe more intelligent than Obama (GASP!). His personality comes off as Country Dumb, and he's not nearly as arrogant as Obama who wants everyone to know how smart he is. GWB graduated from Yale, and has his Harvard MBA. Yes, he was a Yale legacy, but if you think he was able to skate through Yale because of who his dad was, then you might want to get a calendar. His dad was a West Texas oil man when he was accepted to Yale and had not even started his political career. GHWB had made some good money, but certainly was not a captain of industry or political heavy weight that would hold major influence at Yale/Harvard. I will grant you that he wasn't a 4.0 student, but grades are not the determinant of intelligence, just one indicator.

I'm getting tired of this left wing talking point getting presented as fact in our history. The only people who are "really, really dumb" are the people who think GWB is "really, really dumb."


"Left-wing talking point?" Not here. Pal.
I first met 41 in 1979. Spoke w/him again prior to his '88
Run. Met Barbara and had a nice chat in Houston, circa 1995. Never met either Jeb or your faux pal. You need to do some research. First, your above narrative shows your ignorance about Prescott Bush. You make an issue over 41 "not even starting his political career" as though that would matter one iota about GDub's legacy admission. Oh hell no.
Again, before blathering, do your research on the Bush family. Even the family will acknowledge that 41 was very fed up with your boy's lousy academics, followed by about 12-15 years of blurry, alcohol and coke fueled life. Laura laid down the law -I'm outta here- and, at age 40+, he finally backed off the partying. Because of his name -and his acting as a gopher for 41- he was identified as a potential
Repub. candidate in Texas, which was hurting for viable
name-recognition folks at that time. Remember all that hard work GDub put in to succeed in MLB? Yeah, me either.
Nevertheless, your boy suddenly shows up as PRESIDENT of the Texas Rangers at 14 million per annum. All on merit, you bet. No legacy BS at all, just like Ivy League. Of course,
then governor. I'll cut this short.
1. Yes, I've met and supported many of the Bushes multiple times. My respect for 41, Barbara and Jeb is off the charts.
2. Your boy is a failure, IMO, given his blessings....a real dumbass, given his lifetime of privilege and freebies for decades. You really want to debate 1 trillion in Iraq, with thousands of American deaths ending in.....what? You do know who was in office during the "too big to fail" travesty, right? The gov't bailout....screwing so many? Your guy.

That's GDub's legacy. A legacy for the ultimate legacy.
One of the worst disasters in Republican Party history....
Gave Obama a cakewalk. Your guy.

As a 35+ year conservative, I stand by my comments on GDub, and there's a lot more I left out.
Bitter uniformed Old Man. Probably a leftist.


Bitter Old Man
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
That was a lot of words to say "no, I havent met him." And if a Failure is multiterm Gov of the great State of Texas and 2 term POTUS, then I'd hate to be your kid and have to live up to your standards.

I never said he didn't have priveledge and I already said he WAS a legacy and wasn't a great student. I said that daddy didn't get him graduated.

I also never said 43 was a great president, but to say he's "really dumb" is just, well, dumb.

It's ironic that your two example of his failure both trace back to your boy 41. I'm not going to argue whether not going after Sadaam the first time was a good/bad idea, but you can certainly trace 43's war back to 41's war.

And blaming 43 for TBTF is like blaming the firefighter for the house catching fire. That traces back to 41's recession, and the recovery where banking regulations were relaxed to the point were Clinton and your boy Phil Gramm repealed the Glass Steagal Act allowing investment banks to take over the financial system.

43 didn't do the GOP any favors at the end, but I would lay Obama at the feet of whoever thought Sarah Palin was a good running mate. That and the mobilization of social media.

But what do I know, I'm just an uninformed old man.

Trident 88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I had no problem with GWB taking down Saddam, but he's a "dumbass" because HE was in charge when his administration removed Saddam from power without having any sort of feasible plan established for filling the power vacuum that our bad to the bone military forces created. He broke it, and we bought it.
McInnis80
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Court ruled in favor of McRaven. Get along now, nothing to see.
HTownAg98
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sovereign Immunity saved McRaven's ass in this case. Hall's major fault is the he should have sued the entire Board that voted to change the rules and give McRaven sole authority to act. Had he done so, this case might have turned out differently.

Justice Willet's concurrence and Justice Guzman's concurrence both allude to the fact that when the Board changed its rules, they inhibit transparency, and they both find this troublesome. Regardless, since sovereign immunity slammed the door shut and that Hall didn't sue the correct people, they can't rule on that.
TwoTimeAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Amazing how quickly and how many state media outlets reported that Hall lost this case....
Tailgate88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Falsedawn said:

Bitter Old Man said:

Quote:


G Dub is a horrendous example, given his Ivy legacy BS.
Plus, he's really, really dumb.

Curious, do you actually know GWB? Or, is your "really, really dumb" characterization based solely on a Will Ferrell impression or something else you saw on TV?

I've met W., and the people I know who know him say he's actually very intelligent, maybe more intelligent than Obama (GASP!). His personality comes off as Country Dumb, and he's not nearly as arrogant as Obama who wants everyone to know how smart he is. GWB graduated from Yale, and has his Harvard MBA. Yes, he was a Yale legacy, but if you think he was able to skate through Yale because of who his dad was, then you might want to get a calendar. His dad was a West Texas oil man when he was accepted to Yale and had not even started his political career. GHWB had made some good money, but certainly was not a captain of industry or political heavy weight that would hold major influence at Yale/Harvard. I will grant you that he wasn't a 4.0 student, but grades are not the determinant of intelligence, just one indicator.

I'm getting tired of this left wing talking point getting presented as fact in our history. The only people who are "really, really dumb" are the people who think GWB is "really, really dumb."

Yeah...being dumb and being educated aren't mutually exclusive.

HTH
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/04/25/george_w_bush_is_smarter_than_you_118125.html

Quote:

One of my students asked "How involved was President Bush with what was going on?" I smiled and responded, "What you really mean is, 'Was President Bush smart enough to understand what was going on,' right?"

The class went dead silent. Everyone knew that this was the true meaning of the question. Kudos to that student for asking the hard question and for framing it so politely. I had stripped away that decorum and exposed the raw nerve.

I looked hard at the 60 MBA students and said "President Bush is smarter than almost every one of you."

More silence.

I could tell they were waiting for me to break the tension, laugh, and admit I was joking.
I did not. A few shifted in their seats, then I launched into a longer answer. While it was a while ago, here is an amalgam of that answer and others I have given in similar contexts.
I am not kidding. You are quite an intelligent group. Don't take it personally, but President Bush is smarter than almost every one of you. Were he a student here today, he would consistently get "HP" (High Pass) grades without having to work hard, and he'd get an "H" (High, the top grade) in any class where he wanted to put in the effort.

For more than six years it was my job to help educate President Bush about complex economic policy issues and to get decisions from him on impossibly hard policy choices. In meetings and in the briefing materials we gave him in advance we covered issues in far more depth than I have been discussing with you this quarter because we needed to do so for him to make decisions.

President Bush is extremely smart by any traditional standard. He's highly analytical and was incredibly quick to be able to discern the core question he needed to answer. It was occasionally a little embarrassing when he would jump ahead of one of his Cabinet secretaries in a policy discussion and the advisor would struggle to catch up. He would sometimes force us to accelerate through policy presentations because he so quickly grasped what we were presenting.

I use words like briefing and presentation to describe our policy meetings with him, but those are inaccurate. Every meeting was a dialogue, and you had to be ready at all times to be grilled by him and to defend both your analysis and your recommendation. That was scary.

We treat Presidential speeches as if they are written by speechwriters, then handed to the President for delivery. If I could show you one experience from my time working for President Bush, it would be an editing session in the Oval with him and his speechwriters. You think that me cold-calling you is nerve-wracking? Try defending a sentence you inserted into a draft speech, with President Bush pouncing on the slightest weakness in your argument or your word choice.

In addition to his analytical speed, what most impressed me were his memory and his substantive breadth. We would sometimes have to brief him on an issue that we had last discussed with him weeks or even months before. He would remember small facts and arguments from the prior briefing and get impatient with us when we were rehashing things we had told him long ago.

And while my job involved juggling a lot of balls, I only had to worry about economic issues. In addition to all of those, at any given point in time he was making enormous decisions on Iraq and Afghanistan, on hunting al Qaeda and keeping America safe. He was making choices not just on taxes and spending and trade and energy and climate and health care and agriculture and Social Security and Medicare, but also on education and immigration, on crime and justice issues, on environmental policy and social policy and politics. Being able to handle such substantive breadth and depth, on such huge decisions, in parallel, requires not just enormous strength of character but tremendous intellectual power. President Bush has both.

On one particularly thorny policy issue on which his advisors had strong and deep disagreements, over the course of two weeks we (his senior advisors) held a series of three 90-minute meetings with the President. Shortly after the third meeting we asked for his OK to do a fourth. He said, "How about rather than doing another meeting on this, I instead tell you now what each person will say." He then ran through half a dozen of his advisors by name and precisely detailed each one's arguments and pointed out their flaws. (Needless to say there was no fourth meeting.)

Every prominent politician has a public caricature, one drawn initially by late-night comedy joke writers and shaped heavily by the press and one's political opponents. The caricature of President Bush is that of a good ol' boy from Texas who is principled and tough, but just not that bright.
That caricature was reinforced by several factors:

* The press and his opponents highlighted President Bush's occasional stumbles when giving a speech. President Obama's similar verbal miscues are ignored. Ask yourself: if every public statement you made were recorded and all your verbal fumbles were tweeted, how smart would you sound? Do you ever use the wrong word or phrase, or just botch a sentence for no good reason? I know I do.

* President Bush intentionally aimed his public image at average Americans rather than at Cambridge or Upper East Side elites. Mitt Romney's campaign was predicated on "I am smart enough to fix a broken economy," while George W. Bush's campaigns stressed his values, character, and principles rather than boasting about his intellect. He never talked about graduating from Yale and Harvard Business School, and he liked to lower expectations by pretending he was just an average guy. Example: "My National Security Advisor Condi Rice is a Stanford professor, while I'm a C student. And look who's President. "

* There is a bias in much of the mainstream press and commentariat that people from outside of NY-BOS-WAS-CHI-SEA-SF-LA are less intelligent, or at least well educated. Many public commenters harbor an anti-Texas (and anti-Southern, and anti-Midwestern) intellectual bias. They mistakenly treat John Kerry as smarter than George Bush because John Kerry talks like an Ivy League professor while George Bush talks like a Texan.

* President Bush enjoys interacting with the men and women of our armed forces and with elite athletes. He loves to clear brush on his ranch. He loved interacting with the U.S. Olympic Team. He doesn't windsurf off Nantucket, he rides a 100K mountain bike ride outside of Waco with wounded warriors. He is an intense, competitive athlete and a "guy's guy." His hobbies and habits reinforce a caricature of a [dumb] jock, in contrast to cultural sophisticates who enjoy antiquing and opera. This reinforces the other biases against him.

I assume that some who read this will react automatically with disbelief and sarcasm. They think they know that President Bush is unintelligent because, after all, everyone knows that. They will assume that I am wrong, or blinded by loyalty, or lying. They are certain that they are smarter than George Bush.

I ask you simply to consider the possibility that I'm right, that he is smarter than you.
If you can, find someone who has interacted directly with him outside the public spotlight. Ask that person about President Bush's intellect. I am confident you will hear what I heard dozens of times from CEOs after they met with him: "Gosh, I had no idea he was that smart."

At a minimum I hope you will test your own assumptions and thinking about our former President. I offer a few questions to help that process.

* Upon what do you base your view of President Bush's intelect? How much is it shaped by the conventional wisdom about him? How much by verbal miscues highlighted by the press?

* Do you discount your estimate of his intellect because he's from Texas or because of his accent? Because he's an athlete and a ranch owner? Because he never advertises that he went to Yale and Harvard?

* This is a hard one, for liberals only. Do you assume that he is unintelligent because he made policy choices with which you disagree? If so, your logic may be backwards. "I disagree with choice X that President Bush made. No intelligent person could conclude X, therefore President Bush is unintelligent." Might it be possible that an intelligent, thoughtful conservative with different values and priorities than your own might have reached a different conclusion than you? Do you really think your policy views derive only from your intellect?

And finally, if you base your view of President Bush's intellect on a public image and caricature shaped by late night comedians, op-ed writers, TV pundits, and Twitter, is that a smart thing for you to do?



Smithjg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Quote:

While my job involved juggling a lot of ball
And I immediately thought of Monica Lewinsky....
Refresh
Page 1 of 1
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.