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legalness over tenant moving out...

4,321 Views | 35 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by ATM9000
studioone
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Long story... but the gist of it is that I own multiple duplexes and have had issues with grass mowing companies, so I finally told all my tenants that instead of a rent increase, if they would take over the lawn care so I didnt have to deal with it, everything would be hunky dory... and I wouldnt have to raise the rent.

however.. This apparently ticked off one tenant and since we were month to month she said she was moving out on the 8th of September... she emailed me this info...

Then on the 8th of October she said I had neglected to declare any damages and thus my ability to say that she owned me any $ for damages was now no longer applicable. Also... she THEN gave me an address to mail her deposit back to her...

I was under the impression that the legality of email wasn't legal.. That a tenant, upon moving out, had to send it via registered mail... AND, that upon contacting the landlord with the intent of moving out, needed to supply me with their forwarding address at the same time.

My dad, who has had rental properties for 30 years.. said that notices to move out and that fall outside the lease, must be sent via certified mail, and that the intent to move out MUST also include a forwarding address so that I can argue with her with verified signatures that she has received my notices... SO since on Friday, she finally gave me her forwarding address, according to my dad, I now have 30 days to respond...

MY ex tenant says if she does not have her deposit back in 10 days from Friday, she will pursue legal action.

And I REALLY don't know why I ticked her off... but she's been evil since I asked that she take over the lawn care.

shrug.
Agilaw
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AG
The Texas Property Code is pretty clear on this item. What does your lease say (assuming you have a written lease)?
Martin Q. Blank
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Just to be clear, she emailed that she was going to move out Sept. 8. Then she moved out Sept. 8. She emailed Oct. 8 asking for her deposit.

Is there damage that you want to withhold the deposit?
Mumbo Jimbo
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2 words

Triple Damages
TxAG#2011
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People move out of places all the time without sending certified letters
jopatura
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AG
It depends what the lease says, but honestly if you acknowledged the email and she did everything else right, an email might hold up in court (Texas courts still haven't settled this issue, you don't want to be the case that does). I wouldn't play games just over the email if everything is squared away.
studioone
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Just to be clear, she emailed that she was going to move out Sept. 8. Then she moved out Sept. 8. She emailed Oct. 8 asking for her deposit.

Is there damage that you want to withhold the deposit?


She emailed me in august that she was moving out on the 8th of sept.. But she actually emailed me around the 4th of septemberor so saying she had already moved out... Then did not hear a word from her until the 8th of October, when she gave me her forwarding address, saying she would sue me if I didnt have her deposit to her within 10 days.

I would laugh cause she can't afford a lawyer or anything... but there is no reason for her to be like that... she's become hateful for some reason...

When she moved in the carpet needed cleaning, whcih we did before she moved in... Carpet was torn in many places and stank of dog. Had to go...
Seven Costanza
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AG
For me, a "reasonable person" would have inspected the place very shortly after she moved out, sent her any notice of damages beyond normal wear and tear, and sent her the remaining balance of her deposit within 30 days after settling whatever the damages were with her. You have access to email with her and she was apparently responsive to it. You could have asked her for a forwarding address if that's what you need to feel comfortable communicating with her.
The Lost
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Seven Costanza said:

For me, a "reasonable person" would have inspected the place very shortly after she moved out, sent her any notice of damages beyond normal wear and tear, and sent her the remaining balance of her deposit within 30 days after settling whatever the damages were with her. You have access to email with her and she was apparently responsive to it. You could have asked her for a forwarding address if that's what you need to feel comfortable communicating with her.
This.

I would assume the deposit isn't worth suing over unless she has a lawyer friend. She just thought you were slow playing her and wants her money back. From the way you wrote this, you sound like way more of a dick than her.

If you didn't think the email was ok, you should have told her, instead of ignoring her.

And as someone who once had to take over a lawn, even with provided equipment it sucks. If you care about how it looks, I'd strongly reconsider finding a lawn company.
studioone
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The Lost said:

Seven Costanza said:

For me, a "reasonable person" would have inspected the place very shortly after she moved out, sent her any notice of damages beyond normal wear and tear, and sent her the remaining balance of her deposit within 30 days after settling whatever the damages were with her. You have access to email with her and she was apparently responsive to it. You could have asked her for a forwarding address if that's what you need to feel comfortable communicating with her.
This.

I would assume the deposit isn't worth suing over unless she has a lawyer friend. She just thought you were slow playing her and wants her money back. From the way you wrote this, you sound like way more of a dick than her.

If you didn't think the email was ok, you should have told her, instead of ignoring her.

And as someone who once had to take over a lawn, even with provided equipment it sucks. If you care about how it looks, I'd strongly reconsider finding a lawn company.

I am not a "****" as you put it.. and I also don't appreciate being called one. I just have more crap to deal with than most normal people... I work about 120 hours a week.. its actually 5am and I've not been to bed yet... ALL of my tenants know this.. and are usually fine if I am unable to follow up on something quickly.. they are made aware of my lifestyle before they are allowed to sign a contract.... . she's just gone ballistic...

Ive hired four lawn care companies in the past year.. one that even came highly recommended by the aggieland board... when they last mowed, I photographed about 35 spots they missed just in one tenants back yard... not to mention that tenants front and the other duplexes front and back... it was sad... and the grass was freshly mowed to a bout 6 inches high... so they left It taller than It is right before its usually mowed, and missed a ton of spots... there was also a 3 ft unmowed circle around most fo the trees because they were afraid of roots.. this from a local highly recommended company in cs. When I called them, they said they didnt want to deal with me anymore and that was it..

so now my tenants do their own yard work.. and I can tell you that they do a MUCH better job on their own yard than from any local company, from what I've seen...

I'm really not caring about the deposit, im just more interested in her idea of the time frame.. I've always heard you had to have a certified letter, and 30 day notice along with forwarding address, etc etc, as stated in the first post...

HeightsAg
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If you don't have time to manage your properties, perhaps you should farm it out instead of trying to use technicalities to work over your tenants. For many people, a month's deposit is significant cash flow so it shouldn't be surprising that she wants her money back, especially if you've been radio silence for the last 30 days.

How many hours you work is not her problem nor will that excuse hold up in court. Finally, she doesn't need an attorney to sue you in small claims court and by the sounds of it, your opportunity cost is much greater than her's.

Given that you are on the hook for 3x her deposit + $100 + any attorney fees, your best bet here is to just eat the carpet cost as a lesson learned and return her money - unless you want to waste your time debating the validity of email notification in kangaroo court.
SquanchyAg
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Martin Q. Blank
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studioone said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Just to be clear, she emailed that she was going to move out Sept. 8. Then she moved out Sept. 8. She emailed Oct. 8 asking for her deposit.

Is there damage that you want to withhold the deposit?
She emailed me in august that she was moving out on the 8th of sept.. But she actually emailed me around the 4th of septemberor so saying she had already moved out... Then did not hear a word from her until the 8th of October, when she gave me her forwarding address, saying she would sue me if I didnt have her deposit to her within 10 days.

I would laugh cause she can't afford a lawyer or anything... but there is no reason for her to be like that... she's become hateful for some reason...

When she moved in the carpet needed cleaning, whcih we did before she moved in... Carpet was torn in many places and stank of dog. Had to go...
She doesn't need a lawyer. She'll take you to small claims.

It sounds like you're trying to look for a technicality or loop hole in the law. Maybe one exists. I've always felt certified letters are used to protect the sender, not the recipient. You clearly received her notice. I accept anything. Just last week I received a text from a tenant on their intent to move out. Great, I'll start preparing. I don't need a certified letter.

For some reason, you dragged your feet and decided to not act upon it. I'd rule in her favor if I were the judge.
combat wombat™
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AG
Re: why she got upset... Maybe she didn't like being forced to be your lawn maintenance company? That's easily $100 a month. Have you traditionally increased rents $100 per month with little notice?

I've never mowed a lawn in my life and wouldn't like it if my landlord decided that I should start now.

You may have communicated your "offer" to her in a way that was taken as a threat or mandate rather than a an offer to keep rent down.
Diggity
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GunRangeGal
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AG
Just sitting here cringing. This isn't a good look. Every time we've had to flip a unit, we've been happy to accept any form of written communication so there's no misunderstandings.
jopatura
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AG
1) if she was month to month and you offered her the opportunity to do her own lawn without refreshing the lease, that would be a huge red flag as a tenant. Plus she legitimately may not have wanted to deal with the yard if she knew you were getting into it with other lawn companies.

or

2) You did everything by the book, offered her a new one year lease and that didn't work for her so she exercised her right to leave and did.

Neither make her exceptionally evil unless you're leaving out parts of the story.
RockOn
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I accept text messages as notices of move out.
studioone
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no, no, no, and no...

Im not trying to find any loophole.. im not trying to do Anyhting but understand if what I am doing is incorrect OR correct... thats ALL I wanted to know... I 've NEVER had a problem doing it my way in 20 years and this is just not the way I thought the world worked... All I wanted is a 'she's right, your wrong' or a 'your right, she's wrong'.. cause then I can not do it the incorrect way next time..

ITs not about she and I, its about me and the next tenants... im over her, im just wanting to know if emails are legal ways of communicating... IF all communications have to be done by certified mail, like I've been told by many people that it HAS to be certified... If moveout date and forwarding addresses HAVE to come together at the same time or did she do it wrong?

Thats all I really wanted to know..
Diggity
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AG
so in 20 years of you managing rentals, every tenant has sent you notice and forwarding address via certified mail? I find that hard to believe.

The certified mail route is for the tenants protection to verify it was received in case of a dispute. You are allowed to acknowledge this information no matter what form it takes.
TombstoneTex
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AG
This thread makes me very happy I'm done renting.
jopatura
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AG
Here's the legalese on forwarding addresses:

"Texas Property Code
Sec. 92.107
Tenant's Forwarding Address

(a) The landlord is not obligated to return a tenant's security deposit or give the tenant a written description of damages and charges until the tenant gives the landlord a written statement of the tenant's forwarding address for the purpose of refunding the security deposit.
(b) The tenant does not forfeit the right to a refund of the security deposit or the right to receive a description of damages and charges merely for failing to give a forwarding address to the landlord."

Texas courts have gone back and forth on whether email is an acceptable written record. Different state appellate courts have ruled differently in regards to contracts & emails. AFAIK, it's never been tested in the Texas Supreme Court.

Generally though, if the email has been a reliable way to contact you AND she reasonably believed that she was communicating with you, you're not going to be able to hold just the email vs certified mail as the reason you don't return her deposit. If she has the rest of the paperwork in order, a judge could easily rule against you and you're out $$$.

I would send her a copy of that statute, a copy of her itemized charges asap, and return whatever money you are going to return.
JP76
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What does your original lease state about who provides lawn care ?


What's does it state about move out notification in the original lease ?
Ol Jock 99
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AG
I'll take that at face value. You messed up by not handling stuff within 30 days of her moving out. That's on the landlord, no matter how busy you might be otherwise.

Cut the check and drive on. You don't want to play chicken with a ticked off person with nothing to lose.
dubi
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AG
Email or text is fine with me for a tenant to give notice.

You should have had before and after pics and used her deposit to replace the carpet. Then given an accounting of your usage of the deposit to make repairs with the 30 day window.

Pay and move on.
FC12
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You screwed up…pay her the deposit and move on.
If you don't have the cash, better take a short term loans or do a cash advance on a CC because it's going to get even more expensive for you if you wait longer.

Also, if this is in BCS, better hope the tenant isn't reading this…
studioone
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Not sure why, but every time I say this isn't about my old tenant, but I'm wanting information for the NEXT one. As I wanted to know if what I thought was true. That everything had to be done by certified mail and that move out date and forwarding address had to come at the same time so I can apply that to my NEXT tenant....

but nooooooo.... every thread that comes after always goes back to the original tenant and we start talking about her again...

Lets just move on...
one MEEN Ag
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AG
You still got your answer for your next tenant. Isn't what you should've done to the first tenant the same as what you should do for the next?
combat wombat™
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AG
studioone said:



Not sure why, but every time I say this isn't about my old tenant, but I'm wanting information for the NEXT one. As I wanted to know if what I thought was true. That everything had to be done by certified mail and that move out date and forwarding address had to come at the same time so I can apply that to my NEXT tenant....

but nooooooo.... every thread that comes after always goes back to the original tenant and we start talking about her again...

Lets just move on...
You, as the landlord, can choose to accept an e-mail or text over certified mail when your tenant gives you notice. As mentioned before, certified mail protects the tenant when they give the notice to move out; you got her notice. There's no one at the state saying, "uh, no, you can't take that notice.... she didn't send it certified."
DannyDuberstein
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AG
I'd be kind of pissed as a tenant that the landlord just punted the lawncare because they weren't competent enough to figure out how to deal with it. And an email is written notice. Hth. Pay the woman
DannyDuberstein
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AG
Also, most of your lawns are about to go to complete ****
agdaddy04
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AG
You're being extremely stubborn. Everyone is saying you handled it poorly and she was in the right according to the information you've provided. Yes you should accept email if that's the way you've been communicating with her, which it sounds like you were. And it doesn't matter how many hours you worked, you should inspect the place within 30 days of the tenant moving out.
hbc07
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AG
studioone said:



Not sure why, but every time I say this isn't about my old tenant, but I'm wanting information for the NEXT one. As I wanted to know if what I thought was true. That everything had to be done by certified mail and that move out date and forwarding address had to come at the same time so I can apply that to my NEXT tenant....

but nooooooo.... every thread that comes after always goes back to the original tenant and we start talking about her again...

Lets just move on...
WHAT DOES YOUR LEASE SAY ABOUT HOW TO PROVIDE NOTICE TO THE OTHER PARTY
ATM9000
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AG
For working 120 hours a week (lol), OP sure has loads of time for a meaningless pissing contest.

Real answer now: being an outright bureaucrat isn't good for anyone in these matters. If you weren't looking for rent, then you've inherently accepted the notice. That said I think you have 30 days from when she gave you the forwarding address to provide an itemized charge against her deposit and return her deposit… you aren't obligated to just send her deposit back.

You seem to make it a point to let the tenants know you are super busy even though that's not their problem so I'm gonna warn you of something since only people who are easily offended would do this: her response when you send her the damages will not be very nice. And that's because she will view this as another example of you taking the piss on what are your responsibilities… much like she probably (rightfully) views your lawn care solution that to be clear is a solution of convenience for you and only you. That said, if her dog damaged your property, you are entitled and right to keep some deposit.

Have empathy for her perspective though. You might not have intended to be a dick… but you were the dick in this situation. To not action the deposit and also to change your mind on lawncare when it is probably laid out in every lease when people have decided to spend money and move into your place is a dick move and 100% self serving.

For NEXT time, don't be a bureaucrat. Be a little bit more active in ensuring the lease terms are followed and ask for the forwarding address to close the matter off more timely. Your tenant is probably not going to understand the lease and terms very well… but you should. Less work and heartburn for you so you can get back to your 120 hour a week job.
The Collective
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AG
If your sprinkler system breaks and nobody is available to fix it, will the tenants need to learn to maintain that as well to keep their rent down?
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