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Service Animal question

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schwack schwack
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4:54p, 9/10/18
AG
We have a unit up for lease & it is no pets. Got an inquiry that said: "No service animals either?"

They have not applied, not seen the unit, etc. It is in a 4-plex and we have night & day sleepers in there. I think it could be very disruptive to the other tenants + we just don't allow them in any properties.

How do I respond? The inquiry is thru zillow. We have not spoken to them.

From what I've read online you can't ask for proof, deny a breed, etc. My insurance does not allow certain breeds - how does that work? Can you charge more deposit?

Sheesh.


edit: they just called. I didn't pick up. Not sure what to say - how to handle this.

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SteveBott
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5:41p, 9/10/18
AG
Obviously you want proof that animal is trained and I would talk to the trainer to confirm. There is a good chance they have a disability so be very careful on the decline if you do.
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schwack schwack
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5:50p, 9/10/18
AG
From what I have read so far:

Verification of disability and need for a service animal The tenant must provide written verification that s/he has a disability and that the accommodation is necessary to give the tenant equal opportunity to use and enjoy the community. The tenant should obtain a signed letter on professional letterhead from his or her own healthcare or mental health provider to the housing provider answering the following questions: 1) Is the person disabled as defined by the fair housing laws? and 2) In the healthcare provider's professional opinion, does the person need the requested use of the service animal to have the same opportunity as a non-disabled person to use and enjoy the housing community?

I still am unclear about what to do if my insurance company objects to breed.


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one MEEN Ag
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In reply to schwack schwack • 5:58p, 9/10/18
AG
schwack schwack said:
We have a unit up for lease & it is no pets. Got an inquiry that said: "No service animals either?"

They have not applied, not seen the unit, etc. It is in a 4-plex and we have night & day sleepers in there. I think it could be very disruptive to the other tenants + we just don't allow them in any properties.

How do I respond? The inquiry is thru zillow. We have not spoken to them.

From what I've read online you can't ask for proof, deny a breed, etc. My insurance does not allow certain breeds - how does that work? Can you charge more deposit?

Sheesh.


edit: they just called. I didn't pick up. Not sure what to say - how to handle this.

So there needs to be some education on both sides of the isle here.

The renter and you needs to know that a service animal is not a pet. It is legally an extension of the owner and can go anywhere in public that the owner can. A service animal performs a service. Guide dogs lead the blind, PTSD dogs help those with PTSD. Be careful what you demand from them. You cannot legally demand papers for the disability, nor ask the person about their disability. You can ask if the animal is a service animal and what service is performs. A service animal owner cannot be charged pet rent or a pet deposit. If the owner's animal tears anything up moreso than wear and tear from an animal- you can charge the owners for it to be fixed. Nor can you deny access due to a breed. They are not pets. Usually though, service animals are labs, german shepherds, or a standard poodle if the owner is allergic. Anyone who claims a pitbull or boxer or any other aggressive bread is a service animal is 99% lying and needs to be further vetted.

An 'emotional support animal' is not a service animal as emotional support is not a service. These dogs did not go to a school to learn anything, they just basically printed off a certificate from the internet. But here is where is gets interesting. An emotional support animal (ESA) is protected by the FHA and the FAA. So an ESA cannot be barred entry into a home, nor barred from a plane. Anywhere else in public is free game. So if they have documentation that it is either a service animal or an emotional support animal you cannot deny them or the pet. But you might be able to charge an emotional support animal rent and pet deposit. (just looked it up, no pet rent allowed for ESAs).

You first need to figure out if its a service animal, an emotional support animal, or if they are just claiming its an emotional support animal. Most people who have service animals will happily tell you everything you need to know-where they got it, what service it performs, etc. Most emotional support animals waffle here because they don't know what to say. If its an emotional support animal, its a pet.

As of right now, I would recommend you proceed because this could be a legal thorn in your side if you deny them with only knowing they have a 'service animal.'

Source: Extensive experience with service animals. PM if you have any more questions.
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insulator_king
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7:27p, 9/10/18
AG
Very well done reply.
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schwack schwack
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In reply to one MEEN Ag • 7:31p, 9/10/18
AG
Thank you for the in depth reply. So, to proceed I should call and ask:

1) Is it a service animal or an emotional support animal? (But I still have to rent either way so does it matter?)

2) If service, I can ask what service it performs?

3) Can I ask about the breed? (Still concerned about my insurance.... can I require that they have rental insurance that covers the pet liability?)

4) What if the animal is a nuisance to the other 3 tenants in the building? Barking, etc. plus there is not fenced area.

5) I wonder if there is a service pet addendum to a lease. Things like: should be on a leash in common areas, not allowed to be tied up outside, they have to clean up yard poop, etc.

To quote Mack Brown (if you are on the football or old rivalries forums much): "It scares me to death." I am not anti legit service dogs, however, I need to know this is legit.

I can't pm - I'm a lolpoor. I know it looks like I have stars, but they've been there since the $1 trial and I don't have the benefits. (But I look cool....)



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SteveBott
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In reply to schwack schwack • 7:49p, 9/10/18
AG
You have two stars? That includes PM
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FC12
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8:08p, 9/10/18
Are you legally required to respond? Is ignoring their inquiry commiting a violation?
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one MEEN Ag
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In reply to schwack schwack • 8:37p, 9/10/18
AG
schwack schwack said:
Thank you for the in depth reply. So, to proceed I should call and ask:

1) Is it a service animal or an emotional support animal? (But I still have to rent either way so does it matter?)

I would ask still. If you really don't want to rent to them because of the animal at least make them prove to you its either a service animal or an emotional support animal. They could just be lying.

2) If service, I can ask what service it performs?

Yes.

3) Can I ask about the breed? (Still concerned about my insurance.... can I require that they have rental insurance that covers the pet liability?)

I would not. You're walking a thin line here with everything in writing. Don't ask about the breed. If its a service animal, you can't require them to have pet liability (it isn't a pet, its legally an extension of their body). If its an emotional support animal, then I THINK you can ask for pet liability but don't quote me here.

4) What if the animal is a nuisance to the other 3 tenants in the building? Barking, etc. plus there is not fenced area.

You can require the renter to sign an addendum stating that they will keep their ESA or service animal leashed while outside of the property. And that they will be required to control nuisance behavior. I don't know what enforcements you could place. If its a service animal there is none. If you have to evict a tenant due to an emotional support animal that is going to be a giant headache. I would keep documentation on any reported nuisance.

5) I wonder if there is a service pet addendum to a lease. Things like: should be on a leash in common areas, not allowed to be tied up outside, they have to clean up yard poop, etc.

Service pet addendum isn't the wording you want. But I think a 'common area agreement' would fly. But if its a service animal you can't put anything in there like a fine or a fee for these things.

To quote Mack Brown (if you are on the football or old rivalries forums much): "It scares me to death." I am not anti legit service dogs, however, I need to know this is legit.

I understand both sides. Service animals vs emotional support animals gets tenuous at hotels and with renting. So part of me says give the person a chance but nothing chaps my ass like an 'emotional support animal' abuser. If its a service animal, that dog will be the most well trained animal you have ever seen. No barking, no messes inside the house, no scratching at doors. If its an emotional support animal all bets are off.

I can't pm - I'm a lolpoor. I know it looks like I have stars, but they've been there since the $1 trial and I don't have the benefits. (But I look cool....)

I would call them up and act like a normal person. Ask them about their animal, the service it performs, and if they are willing to agree to 'common area rules.' If its a true service animal, then go about your normal business since there is nothing you can do. If its an 'emotional support animal' they might know enough of the law to weasel their 'pet' into this. If you don't want to rent to an ESA person, you better hope they have a low credit score, don't make income ratios, or someone else comes along and is willing to accept a higher price or a quicker move in date. You don't have to rent to them, but if the only thing holding back their application is an ESA you're probably SOL. Pets do damage, a pet deposit might be enough to get the applicant to rethink their approach.


Personally, I think the renter is going about it the wrong way. Make contact first, then approach the service animal questions second.



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one MEEN Ag
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In reply to FC12 • 8:44p, 9/10/18
AG
FC12 said:
Are you legally required to respond? Is ignoring their inquiry commiting a violation?
No, but lets say they call again and you don't pick up. Then a third time a couple days later- no reply. Even a fourth time for good measure. They decide to approach a lawyer, and they file suit for discrimination. If during discovery they find out that you've ignored this person (who has admitted to having a service animal) while readily answering everyone else that is not a good look. There better be an extremely compelling reason why their calls weren't returned or the judge isn't going to side with you.


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bcasey03
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8:58p, 9/10/18
AG
Cant believe they dont have to pay pet deposit or rent.
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schwack schwack
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In reply to SteveBott • 9:35p, 9/10/18
AG
Quote:
You have two stars? That includes PM
It's weird. I signed up for the $1 trial last month. When over, I didn't sign up, the stars stayed but the benefits did not - no premium forum, pm ability, etc.

I just look premium - still a poor. Nobody rat me out.....
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SteveBott
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9:50p, 9/10/18
AG
Just talked to Logan today. I'll keep it secret. Might cost me some marketing money though. I'll send an invoice.
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SteveBott
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9:51p, 9/10/18
AG
Although you should go one star.
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schwack schwack
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In reply to one MEEN Ag • 9:53p, 9/10/18
AG
one Meen Ag -

Again, thank you so much for your input.

I will call and explain that I am unfamiliar with the process, ask about the service provided and see if they are even interested in seeing the apartment. I'm not against a service animal & know I have to allow one, however, I am concerned about a few issues & the process seems so unfair. If this was a single family home it would be different - but I have 3 other people to be concerned about if this animal is not well behaved. If it's a real service animal I know it will be well trained, if not.... I have no idea what I will do.

Is this true? : "You CAN require the tenant to provide written verification from the tenant's healthcare or mental health provider that the tenant has a disability and needs the service animal. The provider need not be an M.D., but does need to be a healthcare professional."

We do check credit scores, employment, etc. and it is clearly stated what our leasing requirements are. Each person over 18 has to pay for the checks and normally that weeds out people that know they won't pass. We do this on everybody - even people we know.

I guess the plan is to call tomorrow and see what they want to disclose.




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aggiepaintrain
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9:57p, 9/10/18
AG
Can a service dog have a support animal?
Serious question.
FJB
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SteveBott
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10:24p, 9/10/18
AG
If it is true service dog it will be a really well trained. The key is establishing it is a service dog and you have a tenent that qualifies
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schwack schwack
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10:34p, 9/10/18
AG
Another quick question - should I call my insurance guy about this? I know they probably have some rules, I just never cared or researched it because we don't allow any pets & it never applied.

If the service animal is a "bad" breed and my insurance carrier will drop me - what do I do? That seems like an undue financial burden on me.
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one MEEN Ag
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In reply to schwack schwack • 10:36p, 9/10/18
AG
schwack schwack said:
one Meen Ag -

Again, thank you so much for your input.

I will call and explain that I am unfamiliar with the process, ask about the service provided and see if they are even interested in seeing the apartment. I'm not against a service animal & know I have to allow one, however, I am concerned about a few issues & the process seems so unfair. If this was a single family home it would be different - but I have 3 other people to be concerned about if this animal is not well behaved. If it's a real service animal I know it will be well trained, if not.... I have no idea what I will do.

Is this true? : "You CAN require the tenant to provide written verification from the tenant's healthcare or mental health provider that the tenant has a disability and needs the service animal. The provider need not be an M.D., but does need to be a healthcare professional."

We do check credit scores, employment, etc. and it is clearly stated what our leasing requirements are. Each person over 18 has to pay for the checks and normally that weeds out people that know they won't pass. We do this on everybody - even people we know.

I guess the plan is to call tomorrow and see what they want to disclose.




My personal opinion is that yes its 'unfair', but if given the opportunity businesses would deny a service animal just because of the inconvenience. Especially AirBnB's and rental housing. A 100% of AirBnB owners have required me breaking out legal threats and citing federal law after they continue to deny service. About 30% of the time I got out with someone with a service animal, we are unfairly denied service at first. I always correct them, try to stay polite, and pull up this pdf

https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

Its not fun going out to a nice dinner and having to explain to the waiter, then the manager, then the owner that this service animal is allowed in the restaurant and legally you can't ask us to leave or sit off in a corner or require us to sit on the patio. I try to keep in mind, while frustrating sometimes, these are learning lessons.

That being said, I loathe emotional support animals. They abuse the system and ruin service animals good reputation.

I wish you the best with this situation. As an owner of anything its not fun being told how you have to conduct business, but you are providing a public service and discrimination is real. I would you hope you'd give the service animal person a chance. Tell the emotional support animal owner their credit score isn't high enough.

As a side note so this doesn't end on such a bleeding heart send off, I've also volunteered at a blind conference before. Blindness affects people from every background. There is the same rate of jackwagons in the blind community as society at large. If this person has a terrible personality- don't be afraid to tell them to hit the road.
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one MEEN Ag
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In reply to schwack schwack • 10:41p, 9/10/18
AG
schwack schwack said:
Another quick question - should I call my insurance guy about this? I know they probably have some rules, I just never cared or researched it because we don't allow any pets & it never applied.

If the service animal is a "bad" breed and my insurance carrier will drop me - what do I do? That seems like an undue financial burden on me.
Yes I would call. But I would be shocked that your insurance company is allowed to skirt federal law while you are not. I wouldn't be surprised if your insurance doesn't change at all. You have insurance for operating a rental open to the public. This would be part of the legal basis of 'the public.'

But I'm thinking in terms of service animal. That should be an open and shut case. Emotional support animal I do not know.
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schwack schwack
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In reply to one MEEN Ag • 5:20a, 9/11/18
AG
Thanks,again, oMa.

I just need to do my due diligence to understand what is allowed, how the process works, etc. I have no problem with a real service animal & will certainly comply with federal regulations.

The main issues that I am sorting out are:

What I can ask of them. I think it's clear I can ask what service the animal provides & for some medical documentation that it is "prescribed" or necessary.

Mainly, this is an older 4-plex, not super sound proof, and I am concerned about the other tenants. In theory, I'm guessing the service animal would be under the control of the owner at all times - go to work plus be supervised at all times while outside & in common areas with with it's owner - and that is fine. The animal will be in "close contact" or certainly hearing range with 3 other people coming & going at different hours. There is no secure or fenced area outside.

I will check with my insurer today to see if there would be any implications depending on the breed and what, if anything, they would require for verification.






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HouseDivided06
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In reply to schwack schwack • 11:51a, 9/11/18
AG
I am in multi-family insurance, and they wouldn't cancel you for this. However any loss that might occur because of the animal would not be covered, so just be aware of that. If it is a TRUE service animal, then it would likely not be a restricted breed. Usually you see pit bulls, rotts, dobermans, and chows as the restricted breeds.
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SteveBott
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12:20p, 9/11/18
AG
I'm no expert on service dogs but from what I know they are extensively trained much more then a regular dog. Trainers are very picky on choosing a dog since they put so much time into getting them ready. You probably have little to worry about them being a nuisance
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scrap
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2:56p, 9/11/18
AG
From a landlord's perspective, there is little difference between a Service Animal and an Emotional Service Animal.

They should have documentation from a medical professional that explains the need for each animal. If they have a letter your hands are tied.

However, a Service animal has limitations to type of animal. It can be a dog or even a pig but not a cat....go figure. But an Emotional Support animal has no such restrictions.

You do have grounds to evict if such animals are a threat to others, destroys or damage your property and/or is noisy causing a disturbance to other tenants.

A SA or ESA is NOT A PET. So a pet deposit or pet rent does not apply and if you insist on either could be construed as discrimination and that opens up another can of worms.

As Steve mentioned, Service Animals are trained and usually present very little concern to the landlord. Emotional Support animals require NO TRAINING. Emotional Support animals require very little effort to have an animal qualify as such. Essentially you just need a therapist sign a letter stating that the animal provides some comfort or reduces anxiety. As a landlord you cannot make a judgement about the validity of the assessment unless you think the letter is a forgery. The letter should be on the professional's letter head.

Cheers.
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schwack schwack
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In reply to HouseDivided06 • 3:08p, 9/11/18
AG
Quote:
However any loss that might occur because of the animal would not be covered, so just be aware of that.

I called them back & left a message. They have not returned my call.

What if it bites someone. No coverage?!?!
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HouseDivided06
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In reply to schwack schwack • 3:12p, 9/11/18
AG
Correct. If it is a restricted breed and excluded on the GL policy, then coverage for any incident related to that dog would not be covered. Not even under the med pay section, in all likelihood. The claim would be turned in and the carrier would deny it based off the exclusion. If the tenant has renters insurance and coverage WITHOUT an exclusion or breed restriction, you could always have your lawyer subrogate. If you want me to look at your policy I am happy to. Email is username at gmail.
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schwack schwack
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In reply to scrap • 3:14p, 9/11/18
AG
Quote:

You do have grounds to evict if such animals are a threat to others, destroys or damage your property and/or is noisy causing a disturbance to other tenants.
We do make very regular maintenance checks on every one of our properties. I guess if we see damage, we can evict on those grounds? Do we have to give warnings & let the situation get worse or is it damage & done?

I have other showings set up and they have not scheduled one. We usually get a some applications then decide based on the reports from mysmartmove.com.

Appreciate the feedback. Again - a trained service animal is one thing & would probably work out fine. They asked specifically about service animals - not an ESA - so we'll see. If this progresses, I will request all of the info that I legally can to verify the situation/need.




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schwack schwack
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In reply to HouseDivided06 • 3:16p, 9/11/18
AG
Quote:
If you want me to look at your policy I am happy to

Thanks - may take you up on that. I have a call in to my insurance person and will see what they have to say.
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HouseDivided06
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In reply to schwack schwack • 3:20p, 9/11/18
AG
No worries, just let me know. Not trying to steal anyone's business as I generally focus on complexes of 50+ units, but I do have some markets for things like this and am familiar with how policies read. Happy to help where I can.
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evestor1
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3:22p, 9/11/18
NEVER take a service animal unless required by law.


This is a MAJOR symptom of an issue...and not a health issue.

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scrap
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In reply to schwack schwack • 3:43p, 9/11/18
AG
schwack schwack said:
Quote:
We do make very regular maintenance checks on every one of our properties. I guess if we see damage, we can evict on those grounds? Do we have to give warnings & let the situation get worse or is it damage & done?
If that was to happen, you should then treat it as you would any other tenant that was causing damage to your unit. You determine that actions you want to take.
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one MEEN Ag
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In reply to evestor1 • 4:15p, 9/11/18
AG
evestor1 said:

This is a MAJOR symptom of an issue...and not a health issue.

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Matsui
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4:52p, 9/11/18
AG
What's the latest?
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schwack schwack
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7:01p, 9/11/18
AG
They have not returned my call.
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JMac03
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In reply to evestor1 • 8:52p, 9/11/18
AG
evestor1 said:
NEVER take a service animal unless required by law.


This is a MAJOR symptom of an issue...and not a health issue.

So someone that has a service animal for seizures, blindness, diabetes, or other conditions are people you wouldn't rent to?
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