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Dark clouds are forming over the market

14,356 Views | 84 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by quailpro
Shooter McGavin
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Lots of signs that the real estate community is headed for a rough ride soon. Reading lots of gloomy articles in Housing Wire and similar blogs.

My appraisal business orders have dropped in half. I have a listing in Southlake that is getting zero showings, despite two price drops. I'm getting calls from other agents about it and their listings are getting nothing.

If rates go up, this thing is going to get really ugly.

Martin Q. Blank
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I thought Dallas and Austin markets were hot right now. End of summer sees a drop in sales, right?
who?mikejones
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/popcorn
O'Doyle Rules
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Hate to say it but a correction is needed. Back to organic growth....was a matter of time with wages stagnant and house prices double digit growth year over year
tford12
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I hope thats the case. I'll be looking to swoop in after a decent dip in prices
MBUSA
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Austin sales are down 9.6% year to date. Many hot areas across the country are facing price ceilings. A slow down is just starting.
aggie appraiser
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Business for me has held steady overall for the year. Was up in the first quarter and down some in the second. Still passing on lots of work due to workload and extra time spent working with a trainee.
p_bubel
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My work load is off by half here in San Antonio as well, which is has been a relatively steady and stable market for the past decade.

I was hoping is was an earlier than normal end of summer drop off, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
BrazosDog02
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Shooter McGavin said:

Lots of signs that the real estate community is headed for a rough ride soon. Reading lots of gloomy articles in Housing Wire and similar blogs.

My appraisal business orders have dropped in half. I have a listing in Southlake that is getting zero showings, despite two price drops. I'm getting calls from other agents about it and their listings are getting nothing.

If rates go up, this thing is going to get really ugly.


What signs? I'm interested in understanding.
AgSwagalicious
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BrazosDog02 said:

Shooter McGavin said:

Lots of signs that the real estate community is headed for a rough ride soon. Reading lots of gloomy articles in Housing Wire and similar blogs.

My appraisal business orders have dropped in half. I have a listing in Southlake that is getting zero showings, despite two price drops. I'm getting calls from other agents about it and their listings are getting nothing.

If rates go up, this thing is going to get really ugly.


What signs? I'm interested in understanding.

Home sales are starting to drop some, despite prices still rising. This is partially due to a lack of supply of entry level/affordable homes, but it's really peanuts. The real story is that low interest rates have propped up asset prices. It's not just housing, either, but also auto, etc. Now that the Fed is raising interest rates (they have to, to stave off inflation) prices of these assets basically have to come down, because borrowing becomes more expensive when rates are raised, and people can no longer afford the payments on these assets.

Always need to remember, the market is driven by the "Average Joes" of the world, the middle class.

Take a look at this link.
http://www.visualcapitalist.com/in-charts-how-american-household-finances-are-changing/

Note the debt to income levels and overall debt in a few key sectors. While we have fewer subprime borrowers in the housing market, the auto market is picking up a good amount of slack in that regard. There is much less delinquent debt in this space (25% of size of delinquent housing debt from '08), but there are now more delinquencies in the auto market than during the 2008 recession.

What this really signifies is a weakness in household finances. Once one domino tips over, things can get ugly fast. We watched this happen in 2008. People can't make ends meet, then they cut their spending, causing businesses to make less money, causing stock market to drop, etc.

Not trying to be doom and gloom here, but these are things you should consider.
Ragoo
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I have been watching a very specific area of Houston for the past 6 months or so. Development doesn't seem to be as rapid and homes are staying on the market for 90+ days even with several price drops.

These are all 400+ level homes.

I think the 200-300k market has stayed strong. Just perception, no data.
Yesterday
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I think the Dallas and Austin markets are propped up mainly from incoming population. I hope we see a correction because my property taxes are insane right now.
SW AG80
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San Antonio is also propped up for incoming population. Supposed to double in the next 10 to 15 years.
HTownAg98
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Which means that fundamental demand will still be there.

I listened to Dr. Jim Gaines of the A&M Real Estate Center give his state of the economy and housing talk that he gives to our group annually. Their take on housing is that the markets will still be strong in 2019, and only nominally worse as compared to 2018. He noted that there have been fed rate increases, but that the Texas housing market has basically shrugged them off. He does worry about the increasing spread between income and housing prices, but the fundamentals are still there for demand. And he should know: the Center can track every single sale that occurs in all of the MLS systems in the state.
mwp02ag
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So how will recent news about recent rapid wage growth affect this if stagnant wage growth was a dark cloud?

I'm also curious of the thoughts of some who've lived through a full cycle a time of two. I've always been told that the typical cycle is 20 years. Given that we're exacrly 10 years into this cycle, is this a compressed cycle, or would this just be a correction with a "higher low" before going onto "higher highs"?
scrap
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Fed rate hikes do little to effect the 30yr mortgage rate. Since Jan of 2017 there have been 5 fed rate hikes taking short term lending between banks from 0-.25% to now 2%, but 30 year mortgage rates during the same time have only raised .3%

Texas real estate is in a stronger position than most of the nation. With population increasing throughout the state, and in a relatively still low interest rate environment the Texas outlook still looks VERY good. Relative to the nation, Texas real estate is still a good value in most locales.

I do think we are seeing a slow down mainly due the explosive growth that has gone on the last 5 years in Texas. There is always going to be a risk element to real estate, but here in Texas the biggest risk lies in the upper middle income and higher real estate buyers. There is not enough lower income housing to accommodate the influx of population in Texas.

So, if your an investor, stay in the lower rent sectors and you will be fine. If your looking for a personal residence, and if you want to reduce your housing risk, moderate your purchase be more conservative, don't max out your purchase price and you should be fine.

The real issue is that we have become somewhat accustom to rising prices and as soon as we find the market taking a breather we say "Whats going on". Market forces are happening.

Here in Austin, I own several duplexes that 5 years ago would be considered very low income housing. I'm talking 750 sqft 2 bedrooms 1 bath units that rented 525-600 5 years ago to very low income tenants. Now they are renting to middle income at 1100-1200 a month and rents still rising. I don't predict this trend to continue at this pace, and we might even see a stagnation in the coming years but here in Texas relative low income housing 1200 and below is on solid ground.
Harkrider 93
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I truly mean this as a discussion.

I have read several articles that are hinting or outright talk of a crash due to debt.

When I look at other charts and try to compare to the ones the above articles talk about, I don't see a crash.

For example (don't know how to post charts):

Housing Affordability Index - it has dropped a lot in the last few years (more difficult to afford a home), but is still better than 1989-2009. 1989 was the earliest I saw the data. Basically means that homes are still affordable vs the last 30 yr average. Even if housing falls, it appears a small drop is most likely over a crash when looking at levels now vs 2005-08.

Builder sentiment is the highest it has been since 1999, but starts are low. Also, the gap between sentiment and starts is the largest it has been in 30 years. Builders are positive vs history, but not building vs history. Maybe they are scared of what happened in 2008. It seems hard to have a crash when they aren't even close to building like they were in 2007 time frame.

National Home Price - the trend is back to average now on a real and nominal basis. In 2007, prices were way above average, and in 2012, they were way below average. The recent quick run has put us back on average. This makes it appear like a possible normal slowdown over a crash.

All Bank Loans and Leases Delinquency Rate- been falling for last 10yrs and still are. I am sure this isn't the same data as a previous chart in the above posted article, but they do signal differently, where as in 2007, they were similar.

Household Leverage (monthly payments as a % of disposable income) - has fallen 35% since 2008 and is as low as 1987. This one is a bit interesting because of the monthly payment/cas flow vs a chart on NW/debt.

I am using the above charts along with the others talked about/provided to help me understand all the data as a whole. I see some discrepancies, but I may be missing something.

AgSwagalicious
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I always appreciate a good discussion. It's a lost art these days!

This is what's so interesting/terrifying about our current predicament. I actually agree with much of what you said. The housing market in a vacuum, other than rising interest rates, doesn't really look bad. In fact, most statistics look pretty normal or even good, particularly when compared to 2008.

Here's a very important distinction that I didn't expand on enough in my first post: I don't think the housing market will be the catalyst for the next recession. That doesn't mean that it's not in a bubble.

When it comes down to it, it's all about interest rates. A retail buyer, when purchasing a home, doesn't think in terms of I owe X dollars for this home; rather, they think in terms of I owe Y dollars per month for this home. In periods of full employment where wages aren't growing as quickly as prices (what we are in now!), affordability will get stretched to its maximum.

The problem is, when the Fed raises interest rates, it increases the cost of that loan. Therefore, unless most retail buyers can cough up the extra money on the down payment to keep those monthly payments affordable (hint, they can't), then prices have no choice but to drop.

Should there be something that hits household finances (and therefore home affordability), such as a stock market correction, or imploding credit card or auto debt (these articles are a bit sensational, I know, but the data is still good), demand will suffer much more.

Clear as mud, right? In my opinion, we are looking at a minor price correction at best, fueled by weakening household finances. Who knows what the worst could be. The reality is that we are in uncharted fiscal waters right now. Interest rates have never been this low and we have never been in so much debt, both as individuals and as a country. I simply don't see any way this ends well.
O'Doyle Rules
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I think alot of Americans are stretched thin on their budget. They have kept up with the Jones'. Mortgage taken out from the full amount of their pre approval, (2) $500+ car payments, increasing healthcare premiums year over year, etc etc. I dont think it will take much to cripple alot of households.
treetop flyer
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Watch the 10 year. When it hits 3.5+ commercial real estate will get hit. No more room for spreads to compress. And rates are absolutely going up. Risk in general, be it macro/micro whatever is mispriced today.
PedroJack07
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Quote:

Fed rate hikes do little to effect the 30yr mortgage rate. Since Jan of 2017 there have been 5 fed rate hikes taking short term lending between banks from 0-.25% to now 2%, but 30 year mortgage rates during the same time have only raised .3%


The fact that mortgage rates were nearly flat in 2017 is used a lot of places to dismiss the impact of fed funds rates on mortgage rates. What is conveniently ignored in this situation is that rates had already climbed .75% in Q4 of 16 in anticipation.
scrap
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PedroJack07 said:

Quote:

Fed rate hikes do little to effect the 30yr mortgage rate. Since Jan of 2017 there have been 5 fed rate hikes taking short term lending between banks from 0-.25% to now 2%, but 30 year mortgage rates during the same time have only raised .3%


The fact that mortgage rates were nearly flat in 2017 is used a lot of places to dismiss the impact of fed funds rates on mortgage rates. What is conveniently ignored in this situation is that rates had already climbed .75% in Q4 of 16 in anticipation.
It always amazes me that the talking heads on TV will give you a reason why the market went up today or down yesterday. In reality most don't have a clue. So you say, "What is conveniently ignored is the situation is that rates had already climbed .75% in Q4 of 16 IN ANTICIPATION.

Do you really know that to be the reason mortgage rate climbed. Logically, why would you think the Fed Fund rate which is used to charge banks by the Federal reserve to lend them money to meet reserve requirements for overnight. This is the most short term rate quoted out there. And we are going to use that rate to help determine a 30 year mortgage rate......really? Most lenders will refer or look to the 10 yr treasury note yield to give some indication to the movement of the 30 yr mortgage rate.

The market,, which really is the people buying and selling, is trying to determine what is going to happen over the next 24 hours to maybe a few days. If you start to see movement especially in the Fed Fund rate many people reason that something good or bad is happening in our economy. Sometimes right, sometimes wrong in their reasoning. Remember, even a broken clock is right two times a day.
PedroJack07
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I'm saying it's the reason in this situation. Not always, but at the end of 2016, yes. 10 year yields and mortgage rates both went up. You were ending an 8 year period of essentially free money. How can you pretend like that has zero effect on long term rates?
BoDog
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What is everyone's thoughts on the outlook for the 700-900k price range? I assume there should be less of a price impact but likely a longer listing cycle (in the next 12-24 months)?
88jrt06
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In any particular market?
Harkrider 93
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O'Doyle Rules said:

I think alot of Americans are stretched thin on their budget. They have kept up with the Jones'. Mortgage taken out from the full amount of their pre approval, (2) $500+ car payments, increasing healthcare premiums year over year, etc etc. I dont think it will take much to cripple alot of households.
I am curious on this thought. I do see debt is up as a whole. However, debt obligations are as good as they have been in about 30+ years. Folks have more debt, but their monthly payments are easier to make than they used to. I don't think this data doesn't take into consideration the other increased costs like Healthcare.

O'Doyle Rules
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Harkrider 93 said:

O'Doyle Rules said:

I think alot of Americans are stretched thin on their budget. They have kept up with the Jones'. Mortgage taken out from the full amount of their pre approval, (2) $500+ car payments, increasing healthcare premiums year over year, etc etc. I dont think it will take much to cripple alot of households.
I am curious on this thought. I do see debt is up as a whole. However, debt obligations are as good as they have been in about 30+ years. Folks have more debt, but their monthly payments are easier to make than they used to. I don't think this data doesn't take into consideration the other increased costs like Healthcare.





They have been able to handle their debt and monthly payments are lower because the fed has artificially kept interest rates low. Times are a changin
Diggity
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but these are fixed rates for the most part. Presumably, as rates go up, buying power will decrease, but it's not going to cause a rash of foreclosures.
Harkrider 93
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right - also, even with variable rates, they have room for them to increase.


O'Doyle Rules
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Diggity said:

but these are fixed rates for the most part. Presumably, as rates go up, buying power will decrease, but it's not going to cause a rash of foreclosures.


You're right...if they are holding CC debt it could impact them somewhat. My other concern is that a lot of families with the McMansions and 2 new SUVs every other year aren't maxing out their retirement accounts. In a world where pensions are rare and SS essentially a ponzi scheme...it becomes concerning.

But the next recession won't come from housing...it will be student loans, subprime auto, or highly leveraged corporations going belly up IMO
Mister Mystery Guest
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He's humorous but I don't take him seriously.
NomadicAggie
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The 10 year isn't going to hit 3.5% anytime soon.
John Francis Donaghy
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What's everyone thoughts on the potential impact of an undersupply of smaller, entry level, homes in the Texas markets?

The up and coming generation of home buyers, as a rule, have more debt and make less money than previous generations did at their age. But homebuilders in decent school districts in the big Texas cities seem to still be going all in on 4+ bedroom mcmansions, at price points that unnattainable for young people with significant loan debt.

Where I live (N Dallas burbs), if you want something with 3 bedrooms that's not 40+ years old and in need of significant work, you're looking at a condo or a townhouse, and those will still run you $350k+ in a lot of instances.

For many young families already stretched thin trying to pay off student loan debt, none of those are really good options, and I think is leading to a lot of young families staying in apartments and rentals much later into life than they used to, which I could definitely see putting a damper on home sales in the coming years.
bcasey03
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Things definitely seem rough for the first time home buyer these days.
scrap
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bcasey03 said:

Things definitely seem rough for the first time home buyer these days.

Why do you say this? Maybe because home prices have priced many out of buying?

If this is so for many first time home buyers then all they need to do is refocus there search. In most markets, a first home buyer that is willing to pay a mortgage on a 150k home can then make a payment on a 250k duplex. The additional income from the other unit will supplement enough to bring the monthly mortgage cost to below rental rates while building equity in a property. Also another benefit would be if financial troubles should befall them as in a loss of a job simply move out of the duplex, rent the other side and have a $500 positive each month.

Just got to be willing to adjust to the times.

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