Real Estate
Sponsored by

FEMA article about Houston Flood Plains

4,201 Views | 33 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by normaleagle05
SteveBott
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Long article but has some really good info on how flood plains are manipulated

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/us/houston-flood-zone-hurricane-harvey.html?referer=https://www.google.com/
oldarmy76
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Obviously, if they were told that there is no way they would ever flood than that was not right on the part of the sales agent that sold them the house. That being said, the developers seemed to follow the existing regulations. Houston obviously floods a lot and raising homes above the hundred year floodplain is better than some parts of the city. That is the same requirement we have in Austin. Some cities have more stringent requirements like ffe one foot above 100-yr elevation, but I doubt Houston has that ability due to flat terrain.
Getting people out of the floodplain allows them to buy cheap insurance. At some point in time, the homeowner has some responsibility. Why would you not have flood insurance in Houston?
SteveBott
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Oh boy. Not sure I want to go political on my own thread.
SteveBott
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
But I'll leave you with this. The forum has an acute interest in flood insurance. It costs real money so that makes sense.

The article provides solid data, professional opinion, and new information to the forum, at least what I have observed. I was mostly interested in the detail workings of how flood plains were established and how they were modified.

The politics of all of it I will have to reread the article again to address that.!
oldarmy76
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Floodplains are modified in numerous ways. You can channelize, fill (usually with compensating cut), etc. floodplains can be very broad and shallow so it doesn't surprise me that some of the homes mentioned in the article were filled less than a foot.

On most development projects the floodplain, whether mapped or unmapped, is modified. Even if it's not modified, homes are typically built as close to the floodplain as possible. I don't see it as an ethical issue for the developer or the engineer ( as long as regulations are followed and drainage calcs aren't pencil whipped). I see it as a policy decision for both local and federal regulators.
What regulations do the Feds want to put in place for minimum requirements for subsidized flood insurance? What factors of safety do local communities want to put in place above federal minimums. Note: city of round rock has the most stringent requirements I am aware of...2-feet above the ultimate 100-yr floodplain. But the economics of putting this requirement in place in round rock cannot be compared to Houston due to hydrological reasons, topographic issues, and historic planning issues.
TXTransplant
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I live in the neighborhood profiled in the article, but I'm in a section that is about 20 ft higher in elevation than the homes that flooded.

I have flood insurance and have since I purchased the home four+ years ago.

A lot of the homeowners whose homes flooded or came close to flooding in the 2016 Memorial Day flood bought flood insurance after that event, but some did not.

I'm not saying that all agents do this, but sometimes homeowners can be discouraged from buying flood insurance. You get push back along the lines of "Why would you want to buy that? The home isn't located in an area where it is required." IMO, we need to move away from this idea that homeowners should only buy flood insurance if it's required by the mortgage company. It's clear from the financial status of the NFIP that more people need to be paying in. I can't imagine being a homeowner in Harris Co and not having flood insurance, unless you live in a high rise.
normaleagle05
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Flood plain issues (general mapping, LOMR, LOMC, Elev Certs, changes on new maps) are going to get much more interesting starting in 2022 or 2023. I think NGS's new gravimetric vertical datum is going to expose a whole lot of bad vertical data in a lot of areas. Lots of surveyors, and engineers relying on them, are using network GPS techniques for FEMA work and neither party understands the technology or methodology of the other. And many don't understand their side of things.

It is going to be an epic **** show in a lot of places.
JT05
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Surging tax revenues caused local officials to figure out ways to make more building possible. I blame them, not the developers. And obviously buyers are going to feel that somebody had looked out for them.
Buck O Five
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I tend to agree that part of the problem is the rhetoric and culture. A ton of neighbors have said, "we are ditching flood insurance, if we made it through Harvey we will never flood."

This is a very new area, and as the water retaining farmland around us gets built up, that Water has to go somewhere. I believe this is why you always hear on the news "we've lived here for xx years and never flooded until now."

Just takes the right storm regardless of the floodplain designation when you bought the home.
OnlyForNow
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
More detail please.
SteveBott
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
JT05 said:

Surging tax revenues caused local officials to figure out ways to make more building possible. I blame them, not the developers. And obviously buyers are going to feel that somebody had looked out for them.


While your general statement may apply in other cities but not the Woodlands. They own everything in that town and the politicians work for the company.

Woodlands Development bought swamp land, poured millions of pounds of dirt, and sold the homes as risk free investments.
JT05
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Yes sorry I was thinking about Houston not the woodlands, despite the article being about The woodlands.
mazag08
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Anyone who blames a developer is an idiot, it's not up to the developer to follow a code or standard that hasn't been dictated. Their job is the provide the most cost effective way to proceed with the project. It's up to the jurisdictions to have the standards in place and not offer variances on a whim.

Developers have paid for the majority of infrastructure in Houston. Without them, we don't have the existing flood channels that exist.
JSKolache
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
mazag08 said:

Anyone who blames a developer is an idiot, it's not up to the developer to follow a code or standard that hasn't been dictated. Their job is the provide the most cost effective way to proceed with the project. It's up to the jurisdictions to have the standards in place and not offer variances on a whim.

Developers have paid for the majority of infrastructure in Houston. Without them, we don't have the existing flood channels that exist.
Slow down there chief, cuz all that drainage worked SOOOOO well. This is America, so it's buyer beware for sure. I get it. But everyone up & down the chain has begun to rely on some archaic government figures as a crutch. The government rarely gets it right, but we are somehow lulled into trusting their educated guesses more than we should. If your answer when it all goes to hell is "that wasn't my job", then you are very likely part of the problem to some degree.

The only way I would live in one of the new neighborhoods along the creeks or San Jac downstream from the Woodlands is if you gave me a free house and paid the flood insurance premiums AND deductible when it floods. That area is a swamp and always has been. They should do a PSA & rename 99 the Grand Swampway. (My apologies to the tens of thousands of folks who bought houses in those new areas + Kingwood.)

Anyone know what Exxon did to keep their whole complex from washing away?? That areas was always the pit of swampy misery. dilly dilly
OnlyForNow
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
They picked high ground, did some FANCY deep underground engineering, and worked with the on-site drainage to their advantage.

Their site wasn't swampy at all though; the property they built on had a topographic ridge down the middle and they built on the north side of it which was very dry when compared to the southern side (drained towards the RR tracks and Spring-Stuebner).
normaleagle05
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
OnlyForNow said:

More detail please.


I'll get a full response to this up sometime this week. In the mean time go read to your heart's desire or until your head explodes about the new datums (that's plural) coming in 2022.
https://www.ngs.noaa.gov/datums/newdatums/index.shtml#
mazag08
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
JSKolache said:

mazag08 said:

Anyone who blames a developer is an idiot, it's not up to the developer to follow a code or standard that hasn't been dictated. Their job is the provide the most cost effective way to proceed with the project. It's up to the jurisdictions to have the standards in place and not offer variances on a whim.

Developers have paid for the majority of infrastructure in Houston. Without them, we don't have the existing flood channels that exist.
Slow down there chief, cuz all that drainage worked SOOOOO well. This is America, so it's buyer beware for sure. I get it. But everyone up & down the chain has begun to rely on some archaic government figures as a crutch. The government rarely gets it right, but we are somehow lulled into trusting their educated guesses more than we should. If your answer when it all goes to hell is "that wasn't my job", then you are very likely part of the problem to some degree.

The only way I would live in one of the new neighborhoods along the creeks or San Jac downstream from the Woodlands is if you gave me a free house and paid the flood insurance premiums AND deductible when it floods. That area is a swamp and always has been. They should do a PSA & rename 99 the Grand Swampway. (My apologies to the tens of thousands of folks who bought houses in those new areas + Kingwood.)

Anyone know what Exxon did to keep their whole complex from washing away?? That areas was always the pit of swampy misery. dilly dilly


So it's the developers fault for not providing money and infrastructure above and beyond what's required by the city or county?

No. That's idiotic. And no city in the US would have come out unscathed if a hurricane parked over them for 2 days, an event that hasn't happened since well before any of the infrastructure was planned. Let's not act like any of the last three years were common events.

Does Houston have a problem after three years of "not supposed to happen" events in a row? Absolutely. And developers (you know.. the people who plan how the funding and design of the things that help the rest of us exist in a decent economy) will be the ones footing the bill since there isn't a single government agency that could budget a lemonade stand correctly.

You want to plan for avoiding the rare occasions? Then it's on you to provide the outline and basis.
TXTransplant
How long do you want to ignore this user?
OnlyForNow said:

They picked high ground, did some FANCY deep underground engineering, and worked with the on-site drainage to their advantage.

Their site wasn't swampy at all though; the property they built on had a topographic ridge down the middle and they built on the north side of it which was very dry when compared to the southern side (drained towards the RR tracks and Spring-Stuebner).


The area west of I-45 and south of Woodlands Parkway all the way to 99 (and even a bit further south than that) isn't all low, swampy land. In fact MOST of the houses in this area didn't flood, or even come close to it. As I said above, I'm within 2 miles or less of most of the houses in Creekside that flooded, and my home is over 20 ft in elevation higher than the houses that did flood. The homes in Creekside that did flood were the ones that were closest to Spring Creek (they essentially all backed up to the George Mitchell Nature Preserve). There were also houses in Northampton, along Willow Creek (which is a subsidiary of Spring Creek) that flooded.

Actually, if you look at the maps, Spring Creek runs at least as close to the XOM campus (if not a hair closer) than it does to the houses in Creekside that flooded (which are the houses featured in that article), and the elevation at the XOM site is

I haven't been following the story as closely as I probably should have the last few weeks, but to the best of my understanding residents might have a claim that the drainage in the Creekside area wasn't properly designed or built to adequately prevent flooding, and this poor drainage design compounded the flooding problem. IIRC, there is some evidence that the MUD allowed developers to cut corners when it came to the drainage and, had they been held to the appropriate standards to begin with, all of this could have been prevented. XOM is in a different MUD (and, interestingly, is about 20 ft lower in elevation than the houses in that story).

Compounding the problem is the fact that all of these lots that flooded were sold as "premium" lots. HCAD has some that back up to the George Mitchell valued at $100k+. Many of the houses that were built on them are $500k+. The long-term financial hit to those residents is likely to be much larger than just the cost of rebuilding.

Also, thinking back to when I bought my house about 4 years ago, I know it took a while for the flood maps to catch up. The year after I got the initial policy (through my homeowner's insurance agent), FEMA sent me a letter saying that the flood maps had recently changed and it was up to ME to send FEMA documentation that my home was still in zone X. When I went to the FEMA flood maps to find that documentation (why FEMA expected me to send them copies of their own maps, I will never understand), the maps didn't even show my house/neighborhood. I ultimately went back to my agent and they sent in whatever necessary documentation FEMA wanted.

Most of those houses that flooded are even newer than mine. I'm definitely a believer in personal accountability - as I said before, I would own flood insurance on any property located in Harris Co, unless it's on the third floor or above of a high rise. But if you look at the demographics of this neighborhood, it's extremely diverse and transient, and a lot of the residents are not from here (or anywhere near here). For better or worse, those people are relying on their mortgage companies and realtors to interpret flood maps and tell them about the flood risk - and those are probably the least qualified groups to be providing that information. Because this event was so severe, I don't necessarily expect the flood maps in my area to change, but what does need to change is how information that documents previous flooding events is shared going forward.
94chem
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Quote:

It's clear from the financial status of the NFIP that more people need to be paying in.
This. I would even provide incentives for realtors who sell flood policies. Something needs to be done to get more low risk homeowners to buy into the program.

Also, the NFIP policies don't have any loss of use coverage. If they did, I would have purchased it. Losing your home for 10 months shouldn't cost you $20,000 for rent when you did the wise thing and bought the coverage.

FWIW, I was in the 500 year plain - I had just moved out of the 100 year plain, which didn't flood.
SteveBott
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
08 Why do you keep saying the developers pay for the infrastructure in their developments? that is patently false.

What they do is pass those costs to the other entities. In the city it is the taxpayers, which the home owners are part of. If out of city its is just the home owners. Ever hear of a MUD? Do you know how they work?

Developers have a fiduciary responsibility to the home buyers to build the infrastructure that is safe and protective of their interests. They are not non-profits. Building one inch above a 100 year flood plain in a swamp in Houston does not meet that requirement to me. But others may disagree. Especially if the developer pushed the no flood insurance needed in their marketing program.

If you knew you would be one inch over the 100 year flood plain, would you buy that house?
OnlyForNow
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I would agree with you on everything, BUT (and you didn't do this) what developer is pushing sales and telling people not to buy certain insurances?

Also, tell them to GFY and mind their own business.

But all your other points are spot on.
TXTransplant
How long do you want to ignore this user?
OnlyForNow said:

I would agree with you on everything, BUT (and you didn't do this) what developer is pushing sales and telling people not to buy certain insurances?

Also, tell them to GFY and mind their own business.

But all your other points are spot on.


The Woodlands Development Company developed and marketed those homes (not just locally, but in other states and in Mexico). According to the homeowners, the developers highlighted the fact that the houses weren't in a flood plain that required insurance as a selling point. Now who knows what they were told and who said it, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if their realtor and mortgage companies told them the same thing - ie, flood insurance isn't necessary.

Again, I think this goes back to the faulty logic that if your house isn't in a location where your mortgage company requires flood insurance, then you don't need it.

With that said, anyone in that development who didn't buy a flood policy after the heavy rains in May 2016 really only has themselves to blame.
SteveBott
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I probably got over my skees on that claim but it would not surprise me it was a sales point when needed. The issue surely came up at times and I do believe that would be part of the response.
OnlyForNow
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
The only other issue I see with your statement is most of the time developer =\= the home builder and seller.

Now, the developer sells lots to the builders that are out of the floodplain and the developer may market the development as out of the floodplain, but as far as face to face sales go, that's way outside of the developers scope and day to day.
oldarmy76
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Why do you keep saying the developers pay for the infrastructure in their developments? that is patently false.

What they do is pass those costs to the other entities. In the city it is the taxpayers, which the home owners are part of. If out of city its is just the home owners. Ever hear of a MUD? Do you know how they work?





It's a little fuzzier in a MUD depending on if it has road powers or not, but developers certainly pay for all infrastructure in cities. They pay to construct road improvements, utility improvements and drainage improvements. Pay for any offsite utility extensions. Pay for needed offsite road improvements. Pay tap fees or impact fees in the tune of 5-10k or more per connection to provide a paying customer to the utility company. Pay to install gas and electric and cable. Yes, the end user (home buyer) ultimately pays for everything through the purchase price of the house. Yes, the public entity that takes ownership of the improvements are responsible for maintenance. But the developer certainly pays for everything on the front end unless it is set up through a PID or some other unique funding mechanism.
TXTransplant
How long do you want to ignore this user?
OnlyForNow said:

The only other issue I see with your statement is most of the time developer =\= the home builder and seller.

Now, the developer sells lots to the builders that are out of the floodplain and the developer may market the development as out of the floodplain, but as far as face to face sales go, that's way outside of the developers scope and day to day.



The Woodlands Development Co is more involved than typical, I think. For the past year or so, they have been offering $2500 in rebates/closing cost assistance to anyone who buys any new construction in Creekside or May Valley. I'm not sure how it ties in to the builders (there are several, including David Weekley and Darling) or the realtors and mortgage companies, but it's being advertised by the development co. I've linked their Facebook page below, which is one of the places they have been promoting it.

https://m.facebook.com/TheWoodlandsTexas/

Here is a direct link to the website for this promotion. Looks like it's in addition to any promotions being offered by the builders.

http://thewoodlands.com/promotions/may-valley.aspx?cid=soc::conv:fallpro:res::

There also used to be a "home finder center" on Woodlands Parkway right near 45. I remember my realtor taking me there. It was run by the development co and was basically a one-stop-shop where you could learn about the different neighborhoods and they could push new construction.
SteveBott
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
But at the end of the day the developer borrows the money then prices it out in their lots which is passed on to the buyers. The interest on borrowing is also passed through. The result is they don't pay for anything unless they make a mistake.
mazag08
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
SteveBott said:

08 Why do you keep saying the developers pay for the infrastructure in their developments? that is patently false.

What they do is pass those costs to the other entities. In the city it is the taxpayers, which the home owners are part of. If out of city its is just the home owners. Ever hear of a MUD? Do you know how they work?

Developers have a fiduciary responsibility to the home buyers to build the infrastructure that is safe and protective of their interests. They are not non-profits. Building one inch above a 100 year flood plain in a swamp in Houston does not meet that requirement to me. But others may disagree. Especially if the developer pushed the no flood insurance needed in their marketing program.

If you knew you would be one inch over the 100 year flood plain, would you buy that house?


Yes, I do know how it works. And your right that a lot of the cost get passed on. But you are specifically talking about residential.. which.. I get it.. that's your arena. I'm talking about commercial. You know who gets the bill from the city for extending the drainage channel from the corner of the main intersection to half a mile south where the bayou runs? Ya, it's that guy developing the strip center, grocery store, self storage, gas station, or industrial facility. You know what standards he is going by for his drainage and detention? The ones the city tells his engineer to use.

So once again, you missed the point. It's not the developer fault when they followed what the city asked them to do. Their job is to comply with code and stay within budget. If you want to fix the problem, ***** at the city and county.
mazag08
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
OnlyForNow said:

The only other issue I see with your statement is most of the time developer =\= the home builder and seller.

Now, the developer sells lots to the builders that are out of the floodplain and the developer may market the development as out of the floodplain, but as far as face to face sales go, that's way outside of the developers scope and day to day.



Some home builders develop themselves, but most just buy packages of lots from a separate developer. And again, developers meet the code they are given by the city or county. If they don't, it's because they've been granted a variance by the jurisdiction. Take your blame to the government. The developer does his job.
mazag08
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
SteveBott said:

But at the end of the day the developer borrows the money then prices it out in their lots which is passed on to the buyers. The interest on borrowing is also passed through. The result is they don't pay for anything unless they make a mistake.


Who assumes the risk of turning the raw land into a developed product? Is it the end user? The homeowner? The insurance company?
OnlyForNow
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
We're in agreeance bud.

Why blame the developer when they followed the regs the feds, county, state, and local authority of instilled.
oldarmy76
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Isn't that the same with any business and capitalism in general?
And developers fail. The first one I consulted for out of college lost it all last downturn and hung himself. There is incredible risk cause things rarely work out as planned. Even with MUDs.
mazag08
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
OnlyForNow said:

We're in agreeance bud.

Why blame the developer when they followed the regs the feds, county, state, and local authority of instilled.


The "you" on my post was referring to the general reader, not you specifically.
hunterjr81
How long do you want to ignore this user?
normaleagle05 said:

Flood plain issues (general mapping, LOMR, LOMC, Elev Certs, changes on new maps) are going to get much more interesting starting in 2022 or 2023. I think NGS's new gravimetric vertical datum is going to expose a whole lot of bad vertical data in a lot of areas. Lots of surveyors, and engineers relying on them, are using network GPS techniques for FEMA work and neither party understands the technology or methodology of the other. And many don't understand their side of things.

It is going to be an epic **** show in a lot of places.


It doesn't sound like you understand any of it either. The horizontal and vertical datums used here in the Continental U.S. have always been adjusted every 5-10 years as more information is collected. There will be no epic **** show.
normaleagle05
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
hunterjr81 said:

normaleagle05 said:

Flood plain issues (general mapping, LOMR, LOMC, Elev Certs, changes on new maps) are going to get much more interesting starting in 2022 or 2023. I think NGS's new gravimetric vertical datum is going to expose a whole lot of bad vertical data in a lot of areas. Lots of surveyors, and engineers relying on them, are using network GPS techniques for FEMA work and neither party understands the technology or methodology of the other. And many don't understand their side of things.

It is going to be an epic **** show in a lot of places.


It doesn't sound like you understand any of it either. The horizontal and vertical datums used here in the Continental U.S. have always been adjusted every 5-10 years as more information is collected. There will be no epic **** show.

Sort of true for the horizontal which isn't what is going to cause the bulk of the confusion. Not at all true for the vertical. Our vertical datum (NAVD88) readjusted a ~60 year old adjustment (NGVD29) that replaced a previous adjustment that was about 30 years old. NGS didn't implement NAVD88 until 1991 after working toward it since 1977-78. By 2007 the plans for how to replace NAVD88 were in place. Ask yourself, why would NGS spend 15 years working to replace a system that was 60 years old and then 15 years later decide to scrap the replacement? Answer is that NAVD88 was never that great.

The new vertical datum coming in 2022 isnt just a new adjustment of all the geodetic leveling done since the mid-nineteenth century like everything before it has been. It's predicated on a whole new set of technologies that make it something seperate from and conceptually different than NAVD88. It is going to expose some serious holes in the quality of NAVD88. Where those holes line up with extensive development at the feathered edge if the NFIP, and especially where that development has modified the maps, there are going to be a lot of surprised folks.

The real impact may lag behind until new base data for flood plain mapping is collected using the new datum. I think you're going to see some areas with significant shifts in risk assessment when that happens.
Refresh
Page 1 of 1
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.