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Seems like 6 figures is pretty pedestrian today, no?

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Joe Boudain
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7:40p, 10/4/21
I own my own business so am completely insulated from the madness that is the current job market, but from what I've gathered from my friends, $100k a year is nothing to shake a stick at.

I've even heard that an upper middle class family will pull in around $300k/year, which I thought would be somewhere north of top 1%.

Is this right?
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BiochemAg97
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In reply to Joe Boudain • 7:48p, 10/4/21
AG
Looks like top 1% AGI was $540k in 2018. $200k ends up just outside of top 5% AGI. Top 25% AGI is about 100k.
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Done7
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In reply to Joe Boudain • 7:52p, 10/4/21
150k is the what 100k was 5 years ago.
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Joe Boudain
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In reply to BiochemAg97 • 7:53p, 10/4/21
BiochemAg97 said:
Looks like top 1% AGI was $540k in 2018. $200k ends up just outside of top 5% AGI. Top 25% AGI is about 100k.


that's amazing. You figure top 25% would encompass the vast majority of major university grads. It was a head turner when my 28 year old sister in law, who works in HR was pulling in 80k. That used to be damn good money.
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BiochemAg97
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In reply to Joe Boudain • 8:08p, 10/4/21
AG
Joe Boudain said:
BiochemAg97 said:
Looks like top 1% AGI was $540k in 2018. $200k ends up just outside of top 5% AGI. Top 25% AGI is about 100k.


that's amazing. You figure top 25% would encompass the vast majority of major university grads. It was a head turner when my 28 year old sister in law, who works in HR was pulling in 80k. That used to be damn good money.
From that same data, the cutoff for top 50 is a little below 50k. That second quartile seems like it encompasses a big range of standard of living.


As for "vast majority of major university grad", so much effort over the past several decades to send everyone to college means a big chunk of the population "went to college".
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Petrino1
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9:23p, 10/4/21
I think it depends where you live and marital status. If you're single and making $100k in Houston, thats a Damn good salary. Allows for a comfortable life and plenty left over every month to throw into investments. I would imagine it's the same for most cities except for New York, LA, San Fran.
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TXTransplant
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In reply to Done7 • 9:30p, 10/4/21
Done7 said:
150k is the what 100k was 5 years ago.


Pretty close. I broke $100k when I took the job I currently have just under 9 years ago. I was slightly ahead of the curve for my degree (PhD in chemical engineering) and years of experience (8).

In that time, I've worked my way up to $150k with annual raises and one promotion. But my salary has not increased more than about $6k in any given year. Most years it's about $3k.

According to the biannual salary survey published by my professional organization (which is how I've measured my progress over my entire career), I am still a bit ahead of the curve, but not by much.
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JSKolache
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In reply to Done7 • 10:19p, 10/4/21
AG
Done7 said:
150k is the what 100k was 5 years ago.
If you think that's bad, tust wait til Plan Biden is fully implememted....
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TriAg2010
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In reply to BiochemAg97 • 6:44a, 10/5/21
AG
BiochemAg97 said:
As for "vast majority of major university grad", so much effort over the past several decades to send everyone to college means a big chunk of the population "went to college".


To put a number on this big chunk, one-third of Americans adults have a bachelors degree.
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rednecked
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In reply to Petrino1 • 7:29a, 10/5/21
AG
ea1060 said:
I think it depends where you live and marital status. If you're single and making $100k in Houston, thats a Damn good salary. Allows for a comfortable life and plenty left over every month to throw into investments. I would imagine it's the same for most cities except for New York, LA, San Fran.
caveat to that:
if you don't have to pay back student loans. if you aren't paying a mortgage on a $350k house, and if you aren't paying on a $90,000 truck, boats, jet skis, what have you...

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Petrino1
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In reply to rednecked • 7:54a, 10/5/21
rednecked said:
ea1060 said:
I think it depends where you live and marital status. If you're single and making $100k in Houston, thats a Damn good salary. Allows for a comfortable life and plenty left over every month to throw into investments. I would imagine it's the same for most cities except for New York, LA, San Fran.
caveat to that:
if you don't have to pay back student loans. if you aren't paying a mortgage on a $350k house, and if you aren't paying on a $90,000 truck, boats, jet skis, what have you...

This 100%. Once I paid off all my student loans and personal debt, my savings rate went way up. It was like I got a raise lol. I live in a reasonably priced apartment, make around $100k/year, and I live a pretty comfortable life. Now if I had 3 kids, a stay at home wife, a mortgage etc, Im going to assume money would be really tight.
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themissinglink
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8:56a, 10/5/21
AG
$100k likely feels like middle class given that most of this forum's peer group is college educated. It is the median household income for those with a bachelors degree.

Median household income in the United States in 2019, by educational attainment of householder


America's middle-class is disappearing…. but it's because they're moving up, NOT down!

I remember hitting $100k being single, no mortgage, and no significant debt feeling like it was pretty easy to have a huge savings rate. Now married, 2 kids, and a mortgage, a household income of $100k would probably be living paycheck to paycheck with little going to retirement savings. Even assuming both partners make $100k (household income of $200k), living in a decent area with 2 kids in daycare would be comfortable but doesn't really go that far.
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mosdefn14
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9:25a, 10/5/21
AG
As others have said, it all depends on lifestyle & choices.

A real life example, similarly aged families. Family 1 making appx $175k with mom & dad both working, paying for daycare & commuting costs etc. in the same (elite) school district as Family 2 where dad earns $450k and mom stays home. Family 1 saves dang near half of their income and is on track to retire by 50, and the other pulls from their investment account each month to make ends meet and will work until they die.

That said, $100k, or heck $1mm isn't what it used to be.
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South Platte
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In reply to Joe Boudain • 9:28a, 10/5/21
Joe Boudain said:
I own my own business so am completely insulated from the madness that is the current job market, but from what I've gathered from my friends, $100k a year is nothing to shake a stick at.

I've even heard that an upper middle class family will pull in around $300k/year, which I thought would be somewhere north of top 1%.

Is this right?
Income is one thing, savings/wealth is another. Our AGI has never been over $90,000 for married with 2 kids yet we're upper 40's and closing in on a $1m net worth, not counting any primary residence equity.

Which brings in another discussion . . . how much is $1m net worth these days? Definitely not what it used to be.
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fightingfarmer09
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9:53a, 10/5/21
Factor in the average teacher in America has a minimum of a BS degree.

The average pay for a teacher in the US is $63,500.

Teachers make up 10% of the college educated workforce in America.
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Howdy Dammit
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1:18p, 10/5/21
AG
Housing market has killed what I thought should be a comfortable living. Starter homes are now priced like 2nd level homes. A 250k house does not exist anymore. It did when I graduated in '16.
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young eugene
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In reply to themissinglink • 1:39p, 10/5/21
AG
themissinglink said:
$100k likely feels like middle class given that most of this forum's peer group is college educated. It is the median household income for those with a bachelors degree.

Median household income in the United States in 2019, by educational attainment of householder


America's middle-class is disappearing…. but it's because they're moving up, NOT down!

I remember hitting $100k being single, no mortgage, and no significant debt feeling like it was pretty easy to have a huge savings rate. Now married, 2 kids, and a mortgage, a household income of $100k would probably be living paycheck to paycheck with little going to retirement savings. Even assuming both partners make $100k (household income of $200k), living in a decent area with 2 kids in daycare would be comfortable but doesn't really go that far.
I want to underline the word daycare above. This is temporary. Once kids are in (public) school, a household income of $200k, you should be very comfortable, depending on your location and standard of living.
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htxag09
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In reply to Howdy Dammit • 1:52p, 10/5/21
AG
Howdy Dammit said:
Housing market has killed what I thought should be a comfortable living. Starter homes are now priced like 2nd level homes. A 250k house does not exist anymore. It did when I graduated in '16.
It obviously depends on where you are. But $250K houses absolutely do exist. It just may not be in the hip part of town, a brand new neighborhood, over 3,500 sq ft, or have wood floors and granite countertops like everyone thinks they need.
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jtraggie99
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In reply to htxag09 • 1:57p, 10/5/21
AG
htxag09 said:
Howdy Dammit said:
Housing market has killed what I thought should be a comfortable living. Starter homes are now priced like 2nd level homes. A 250k house does not exist anymore. It did when I graduated in '16.
It obviously depends on where you are. But $250K houses absolutely do exist. It just may not be in the hip part of town, a brand new neighborhood, over 3,500 sq ft, or have wood floors and granite countertops like everyone thinks they need.
There are plenty of cities and parts of the country where they certainly still exist.
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Medaggie
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2:17p, 10/5/21
100K for a family 5 is low middle class IMO. That covers basic stuff now a days.

We make much more than that but we have 3 kids in private school and one of them in club sports. This alone is 40K out of the budget.

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Ag13
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In reply to Howdy Dammit • 2:18p, 10/5/21
AG
Howdy Dammit said:
Housing market has killed what I thought should be a comfortable living. Starter homes are now priced like 2nd level homes. A 250k house does not exist anymore. It did when I graduated in '16.
https://www.zillow.com/houston-tx/3-_beds/?searchQueryState=%7B%22pagination%22%3A%7B%7D%2C%22usersSearchTerm%22%3A%22Houston%22%2C%22mapBounds%22%3A%7B%22west%22%3A-95.91701565185548%2C%22east%22%3A-95.11364040771485%2C%22south%22%3A29.544686031090453%2C%22north%22%3A30.022631268833727%7D%2C%22regionSelection%22%3A%5B%7B%22regionId%22%3A39051%2C%22regionType%22%3A6%7D%5D%2C%22isMapVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22filterState%22%3A%7B%22beds%22%3A%7B%22min%22%3A3%7D%2C%22sort%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3A%22globalrelevanceex%22%7D%2C%22ah%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Atrue%7D%2C%22price%22%3A%7B%22min%22%3A200000%2C%22max%22%3A300000%7D%2C%22mp%22%3A%7B%22min%22%3A486%2C%22max%22%3A729%7D%7D%2C%22isListVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22mapZoom%22%3A11%7D

There are more than plenty available in Houston. I filtered 200-300k and 3+ bedrooms. Not sure what else you want in a "starter" home but there are for sure options for that price range.

I assume very different in California or New York.
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Cyp0111
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In reply to jtraggie99 • 2:23p, 10/5/21
The biggest issue has been the bid up in property values in the larger Texas cities.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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2:25p, 10/5/21
AG
Things like student debt, state tax, and COL make huge differences -- as important as salary.

For example when I was living in New York, all three of those were higher for me.

After moving to Florida, state tax disappeared, COL fell by a solid 15-20%, and I was able to pay off my student loans pretty quickly. After that, with no debt, my saving rate was probably doubled.

And that was before factoring in the pay raise I got.

But in short, I could've been making $100k in NY (I wasn't), and be putting away less than I would where I currently live with $80k.

But lucky for me those salaries went in the opposite direction.
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jtraggie99
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In reply to Cyp0111 • 2:41p, 10/5/21
AG
Cyp0111 said:
The biggest issue has been the bid up in property values in the larger Texas cities.
Yeah, I am aware of the issues in Texas. I am right in the middle of it, sitting in McKinney (DFW). I paid 280 for my current house 3 and a half years ago. I refinanced this summer and my appraisal came in at 386. Not the best time to be buying in this particular area. And you'd have to go further out to find stuff in the mid-2000's right now. But, that's DFW (and Texas). There are plenty of other areas that you can still find cheaper areas. So, just to make a blanket statement that 250k houses no longer exist is not really accurate. Now, if you said houses in that price range are hard to come by right now in inner DFW, then sure, I'd buy it.

That being said, things are stalling. Several months ago, houses were going under contract almost over night, seemingly everyone that came up for sale. Now I see more sitting still. House up the street from me that went up for sale in August at 600k, is still for sale with the price currently at 545k. And they're not alone.
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Dr. Doctor
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In reply to themissinglink • 3:41p, 10/5/21
AG
themissinglink said:
$100k likely feels like middle class given that most of this forum's peer group is college educated. It is the median household income for those with a bachelors degree.

Median household income in the United States in 2019, by educational attainment of householder


America's middle-class is disappearing…. but it's because they're moving up, NOT down!

I remember hitting $100k being single, no mortgage, and no significant debt feeling like it was pretty easy to have a huge savings rate. Now married, 2 kids, and a mortgage, a household income of $100k would probably be living paycheck to paycheck with little going to retirement savings. Even assuming both partners make $100k (household income of $200k), living in a decent area with 2 kids in daycare would be comfortable but doesn't really go that far.
I disagree with the notion that the middle class is moving up. Mostly because their original graphic probably only had ONE breadwinner and ONE stay at home parent. Now you have TWO breadwinners making the same amount of money. Is that better for the economy or no? I would also argue that while there are 2 breadwinners, there is a difference between the two. A husband works for a engr firm making $125k and the wife works as an aide or at the elementary school, making $45k a year. Both are college educated, but one actually needs the degree; the other does not. Factor in debt and lifestyle, there is a reason the wife HAD to go back (beyond the wants to go back argument).

And in my own experience, the two people working can make the lifestyle creep much more pronounced than you'd expect. Both working, no time to grocery shop or cook, so you eat out all the time. Since you eat out all the time, you gain weight and need a gym to work out to burn the weight off (or join WW or get expensive bikes...)

~egon
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planoaggie123
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In reply to Howdy Dammit • 3:48p, 10/5/21
AG
Howdy Dammit said:
Housing market has killed what I thought should be a comfortable living. Starter homes are now priced like 2nd level homes. A 250k house does not exist anymore. It did when I graduated in '16.

I was just looking....my first home with wife we paid $192K in 2011 (actually less due to concessions, etc).

We sold in Oct 2019 for $325K and all we really did to the house was master bath remodel ($20K) and some interior painting ($2K).

That same house is now estimated to go for $425K.

Makes zero sense.
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jamey
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In reply to Dr. Doctor • 3:59p, 10/5/21
AG
Had this discussion just recently.

I suspect we've been spending between 12 to 15K on ordering food, going out...etc. possibly more

Make those meals at home and it prices out about equal to the cokes that come with it alone
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Cyp0111
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In reply to jamey • 4:12p, 10/5/21
Food inflation is a real thing. Eating out/groceries has really grown into our largest non-fixed budget component.
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Howdy Dammit
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In reply to planoaggie123 • 4:13p, 10/5/21
AG
planoaggie123 said:
Howdy Dammit said:
Housing market has killed what I thought should be a comfortable living. Starter homes are now priced like 2nd level homes. A 250k house does not exist anymore. It did when I graduated in '16.

I was just looking....my first home with wife we paid $192K in 2011 (actually less due to concessions, etc).

We sold in Oct 2019 for $325K and all we really did to the house was master bath remodel ($20K) and some interior painting ($2K).

That same house is now estimated to go for $425K.

Makes zero sense.

I believe it. It's been crazy. We got extremely lucky to get a house here in Austin this year. Took several bidding attempts. But it's only gotten worse. We just hired a guy from out of state and he's been trying to get an apartment since august and is having a hard time. There's bidding wars on those too.
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planoaggie123
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In reply to Cyp0111 • 4:18p, 10/5/21
AG
Cyp0111 said:
Food inflation is a real thing. Eating out/groceries has really grown into our largest non-fixed budget component.

Agree.

We are currently re-assessing our food budget. We admittedly like to eat out on weekends and have a couple drinks while out but it is getting expensive. Honestly, we have found that our Grocery Bill is increasing far more than our dinning out budget but that higher grocery bill impacts our ability to have dinners out at restaurants.

Wife and I eat chicken breast and spinach (salad) 4 nights a week. Grill salmon or burgers another night. Eat out 2 nights. We have a pretty "modest" grocery list but it is getting more and more expensive.
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Howdy Dammit
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In reply to Ag13 • 4:20p, 10/5/21
AG
Ag13 said:
Howdy Dammit said:
Housing market has killed what I thought should be a comfortable living. Starter homes are now priced like 2nd level homes. A 250k house does not exist anymore. It did when I graduated in '16.
https://www.zillow.com/houston-tx/3-_beds/?searchQueryState=%7B%22pagination%22%3A%7B%7D%2C%22usersSearchTerm%22%3A%22Houston%22%2C%22mapBounds%22%3A%7B%22west%22%3A-95.91701565185548%2C%22east%22%3A-95.11364040771485%2C%22south%22%3A29.544686031090453%2C%22north%22%3A30.022631268833727%7D%2C%22regionSelection%22%3A%5B%7B%22regionId%22%3A39051%2C%22regionType%22%3A6%7D%5D%2C%22isMapVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22filterState%22%3A%7B%22beds%22%3A%7B%22min%22%3A3%7D%2C%22sort%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3A%22globalrelevanceex%22%7D%2C%22ah%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Atrue%7D%2C%22price%22%3A%7B%22min%22%3A200000%2C%22max%22%3A300000%7D%2C%22mp%22%3A%7B%22min%22%3A486%2C%22max%22%3A729%7D%7D%2C%22isListVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22mapZoom%22%3A11%7D

There are more than plenty available in Houston. I filtered 200-300k and 3+ bedrooms. Not sure what else you want in a "starter" home but there are for sure options for that price range.

I assume very different in California or New York.

Houston had well over 1000 listings fitting that criteria. Check Austin. It has 11. And like 9 of them are mobile homes. Lol
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Seven Costanza
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4:21p, 10/5/21
AG
I don't have the data, but it seems like you could buy a crappy little starter house in the 70s for very little money in relation to your salary, and still have it be in a safe neighborhood. The market for small, very cheaply built homes in otherwise safe areas doesn't seem to exist anymore. There are probably a lot of reasons for this, but one seems to be that a lot of young people seem to be unwilling to accept anything less than luxury (faux luxury, really) right off the bat.
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TXTransplant
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4:22p, 10/5/21
I rarely eat out. Groceries have gotten crazy. I've seen 30% increases on some things in the last year or so.
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jtraggie99
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In reply to Seven Costanza • 4:50p, 10/5/21
AG
Seven Costanza said:
I don't have the data, but it seems like you could buy a crappy little starter house in the 70s for very little money in relation to your salary, and still have it be in a safe neighborhood. The market for small, very cheaply built homes in otherwise safe areas doesn't seem to exist anymore. There are probably a lot of reasons for this, but one seems to be that a lot of young people seem to be unwilling to accept anything less than luxury (faux luxury, really) right off the bat.
I think that's a large part of the problem. Builders are not building modest, entry-level homes. I look around where I am where they are constantly building new homes, and a lot of the signs you see state 400k - 500k and up. Many neighborhoods start higher than than. You really have to get out into the rural areas to find more modest new builds.
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Dr. Doctor
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In reply to jtraggie99 • 7:20p, 10/5/21
AG
I would argue that they are building 'starter' homes, at least in the NE side of Houston. There were several neighborhoods that were (in 2012) $90k to $200k. Those same neighborhoods (and newer ones) later became $150k to $280k (2017 or later).

But the issue is 'investors' (aka, people wanting to be the next slum dog millionaire) swoop in, buy them all and the only homes left are those that are out of 'investor's' price range. The $400k+ homes.

Everything that's built in the $100k to $240ish range is snapped up buy those wanting passive income streams. How many threads on TA do we have about people wanting to invest in RE with $100k and the answer comes back "Buy 5 homes with loans and leverage your money!" That's why you don't have starter homes anymore.

~egon
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