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I Bonds

6,793 Views | 34 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by YouBet
YouBet
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AG
Never heard of these. Seems promising to park some cash as a conservative option.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-bonds-the-safe-high-return-trade-hiding-in-plain-sight-11622213324

Quote:

I bonds were conceived to provide primarily small savers with a positive long-term return after inflation. Their yield consists of a fixed rate for the 30-year life of the bond and an inflation rate, which adjusts semiannually. The current 3.54% applies to I bonds issued until Nov. 1, 2021 and will reset every six months unless the official government rate of inflation stays constant.

W hat if interest rates or inflation head lower? Yes, the yield can decline. But, unlike with Treasury inflation-protected securities, or TIPS, the yield on I bonds can never go below zero. So they protect against both inflation and deflation, which is pretty amazing.
Quote:

Interest on I bonds is exempt from state and local income tax. In confiscatory states like California, Hawaii, Minnesota, New York and Oregon, a household with $400,000 in taxable income would have to earn roughly 4% on a taxable asset to equal today's after-tax I-bond return if rates don't change.
Quote:

I bonds aren't as liquid as a bank account, money fund or Treasury bill. You can't cash out until you've held for 12 months. If you redeem within the first five years, you'll forfeit the last three months of interest. But they're as liquid as other 30-year bondsand, if you sell after the first five years, your full recovery of principal and your ability to match or outpace inflation are both guaranteed.

Johnny Danger
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AG
Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately, there is a $10,000 maximum investment limit per year .
SMM48
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AG
10,000 per year per account holder.
YouBet
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AG
Yep, there is a limit but it's still another option if you've exhausted other channels and are looking for a conservative vehicle that is paying a better rate than like options. I may throw $10k at it because I have buffer cash on the sideline and need to fill some of my principal protection bucket and this is paying out better than what I have elsewhere.
Jabin
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Plus, as the article notes, you can goose the annual limit by purchasing in the name of spouses (and kids?).
deadbq03
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AG
I still haven't done it, but I know of folks who use this as their rainy-day fund instead of cash in the bank. Obviously it takes a few years to get up to your target, but once you're there and have held for at least 12 months, it's safe and liquid and grows far better than a bank account.

YouBet
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AG
deadbq03 said:

I still haven't done it, but I know of folks who use this as their rainy-day fund instead of cash in the bank. Obviously it takes a few years to get up to your target, but once you're there and have held for at least 12 months, it's safe and liquid and grows far better than a bank account.




Yes, that's one of the points of the articles author. I have a cash reserve that I need to protect, but I will not need all of it until 12+ months so this seems like a good, potential option.
Jabin
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Playing around on the TreasuryDirect site, I note that you can actually purchase $15,000/year in I Bonds. The extra $5,000 is possible by purchasing paper bonds with a tax refund.

So, since I pay quarterly estimated taxes, I may consider paying an extra $5,000 on my last quarterly payment simply to allow me to purchase that amount with the refund.
RockOn
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This is probably a better option than any other cash/short-term bond allocation, to the extent that you actually hold ST bonds. For those closer to retirement, that allocation might be higher.

It's good to note that the fixed rate portion of those currently being issued is 0.00% with 3.54% as the inflation portion.

No real downside, stable, liquid.
Casey TableTennis
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AG
The downside on these is opportunity cost. Relative to cash or safe/short duration bonds, these are very attractive if you can go without for the 12 no hold requirement.

Relative to riskier assets, this may be lower returning if/when future inflation is lower than recent prints, as it has been for much of their history.

I like the idea of building these as a reserve over a few years, but it is a lot of hoops to jump through to squeeze out some incremental yield on even $50k to $100k.
RockOn
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We won't know for sure until November 1st, but there are guesstimates that the inflation portion of the yield will be 7.12% for the next 6 months (0.0% for the fixed)
TamuKid
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AG
Purchased for wife and I today; in money that otherwise sits in Ally earning .5%.
Seems like a decent option for short term savings-style money.
azul_rain
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just bought 10k, thanks boys
YouBet
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AG
I finally pulled the trigger on this today. They are paying 7.13% right now which is pretty damn good for a risk free vehicle.

I want to put an additional $10K in under wife's name but not completely sure what to do there. Anyone else do that?



YouBet
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TamuKid said:

Purchased for wife and I today; in money that otherwise sits in Ally earning .5%.
Seems like a decent option for short term savings-style money.
How did you do this for wife? Did you add her as First Time registrant or did you gift it to her? Thanks!
TamuKid
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AG
YouBet said:

TamuKid said:

Purchased for wife and I today; in money that otherwise sits in Ally earning .5%.
Seems like a decent option for short term savings-style money.
How did you do this for wife? Did you add her as First Time registrant or did you gift it to her? Thanks!
I opened my account and bought $10k.
Then I opened an account with my wife's details and bought $10k.


Keep this in mind too, if you are gifting:
"Savings bonds purchased as gifts aren't included in your annual limit. Also, the purchase amount of electronic savings bonds you transfer, deliver as gifts, or de-link to another TreasuryDirect account holder is applied to the receiver's annual purchase limit in the year the transaction occurs, and not to your own limit."
YouBet
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AG
TamuKid said:

YouBet said:

TamuKid said:

Purchased for wife and I today; in money that otherwise sits in Ally earning .5%.
Seems like a decent option for short term savings-style money.
How did you do this for wife? Did you add her as First Time registrant or did you gift it to her? Thanks!
I opened my account and bought $10k.
Then I opened an account with my wife's details and bought $10k.


Keep this in mind too, if you are gifting:
"Savings bonds purchased as gifts aren't included in your annual limit. Also, the purchase amount of electronic savings bonds you transfer, deliver as gifts, or de-link to another TreasuryDirect account holder is applied to the receiver's annual purchase limit in the year the transaction occurs, and not to your own limit."
Well, yeah, duh. I guess that's the easy thing to do. Ha.
TamuKid
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AG
YouBet said:

TamuKid said:

YouBet said:

TamuKid said:

Purchased for wife and I today; in money that otherwise sits in Ally earning .5%.
Seems like a decent option for short term savings-style money.
How did you do this for wife? Did you add her as First Time registrant or did you gift it to her? Thanks!
I opened my account and bought $10k.
Then I opened an account with my wife's details and bought $10k.


Keep this in mind too, if you are gifting:
"Savings bonds purchased as gifts aren't included in your annual limit. Also, the purchase amount of electronic savings bonds you transfer, deliver as gifts, or de-link to another TreasuryDirect account holder is applied to the receiver's annual purchase limit in the year the transaction occurs, and not to your own limit."
Well, yeah, duh. I guess that's the easy thing to do. Ha.
From what I understand they have to have a separate account either way; even if you gift to them... has to be an account to gift to. Can't do like a "Joint" account.
YouBet
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AG
TamuKid said:

YouBet said:

TamuKid said:

YouBet said:

TamuKid said:

Purchased for wife and I today; in money that otherwise sits in Ally earning .5%.
Seems like a decent option for short term savings-style money.
How did you do this for wife? Did you add her as First Time registrant or did you gift it to her? Thanks!
I opened my account and bought $10k.
Then I opened an account with my wife's details and bought $10k.


Keep this in mind too, if you are gifting:
"Savings bonds purchased as gifts aren't included in your annual limit. Also, the purchase amount of electronic savings bonds you transfer, deliver as gifts, or de-link to another TreasuryDirect account holder is applied to the receiver's annual purchase limit in the year the transaction occurs, and not to your own limit."
Well, yeah, duh. I guess that's the easy thing to do. Ha.
From what I understand they have to have a separate account either way; even if you gift to them... has to be an account to gift to. Can't do like a "Joint" account.
Thanks. One screen seems to suggest you can but I'll just open a separate account. Cleaner that way anyway.
YouBet
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AG
Well, just tried to open a separate account in my wife's name and I'm having to go an extra step and snail mail an authorization letter that has been notarized. Ugh.

I guess having the same home address flagged something. I don't know.
OldArmyCT
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AG
Bonds pay interest, that's a given. When you sell bonds on the secondary market (short of maturity) you sell at market price which may be more or less than you paid for them. When interest rates rise bond values drop. You might do better buying a stock with a high dividend (T?). Don't forget taxes on the interest and cap gains/losses.
RockOn
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OldArmyCT said:

Bonds pay interest, that's a given. When you sell bonds on the secondary market (short of maturity) you sell at market price which may be more or less than you paid for them. When interest rates rise bond values drop. You might do better buying a stock with a high dividend (T?). Don't forget taxes on the interest and cap gains/losses.
There is no secondary market for I-Bonds. They act more like a CD that can be redeemed at the treasury for par (minus any early redemp fees).
TamuKid
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YouBet said:

Well, just tried to open a separate account in my wife's name and I'm having to go an extra step and snail mail an authorization letter that has been notarized. Ugh.

I guess having the same home address flagged something. I don't know.
I'd give them a call. That sounds odd, to me.
I had no issues doing the same. Neither did my mom/dad. Neither did a friend/his wife.
YouBet
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AG
TamuKid said:

YouBet said:

Well, just tried to open a separate account in my wife's name and I'm having to go an extra step and snail mail an authorization letter that has been notarized. Ugh.

I guess having the same home address flagged something. I don't know.
I'd give them a call. That sounds odd, to me.
I had no issues doing the same. Neither did my mom/dad. Neither did a friend/his wife.
Yeah, I plan to do that.
OldArmyCT
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AG
RockOn said:

OldArmyCT said:

Bonds pay interest, that's a given. When you sell bonds on the secondary market (short of maturity) you sell at market price which may be more or less than you paid for them. When interest rates rise bond values drop. You might do better buying a stock with a high dividend (T?). Don't forget taxes on the interest and cap gains/losses.
There is no secondary market for I-Bonds. They act more like a CD that can be redeemed at the treasury for par (minus any early redemp fees).
If you have a Treasury direct account. It'll cost you 3 months interest. For the puny amount of interest you're getting one might do better with a TIPS mutual fund. Vanguard has one.
YouBet
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AG
OldArmyCT said:

RockOn said:

OldArmyCT said:

Bonds pay interest, that's a given. When you sell bonds on the secondary market (short of maturity) you sell at market price which may be more or less than you paid for them. When interest rates rise bond values drop. You might do better buying a stock with a high dividend (T?). Don't forget taxes on the interest and cap gains/losses.
There is no secondary market for I-Bonds. They act more like a CD that can be redeemed at the treasury for par (minus any early redemp fees).
If you have a Treasury direct account. It'll cost you 3 months interest. For the puny amount of interest you're getting one might do better with a TIPS mutual fund. Vanguard has one.
I Bonds are paying 7% right now. Are TIPS paying that?
deadbq03
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AG
YouBet said:

OldArmyCT said:

RockOn said:

OldArmyCT said:

Bonds pay interest, that's a given. When you sell bonds on the secondary market (short of maturity) you sell at market price which may be more or less than you paid for them. When interest rates rise bond values drop. You might do better buying a stock with a high dividend (T?). Don't forget taxes on the interest and cap gains/losses.
There is no secondary market for I-Bonds. They act more like a CD that can be redeemed at the treasury for par (minus any early redemp fees).
If you have a Treasury direct account. It'll cost you 3 months interest. For the puny amount of interest you're getting one might do better with a TIPS mutual fund. Vanguard has one.
I Bonds are paying 7% right now. Are TIPS paying that?
They don't, but to be fair, the TIPS-based funds have appreciated in value quite a bit in the past 3 years, such that their 3 year total return is north of 7% annually.

That said, the same funds will also lose value in many market conditions, sometimes rather rapidly (see 2013), whereas I Bonds offer capital protection.
OldArmyCT
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AG
deadbq03 said:

YouBet said:

OldArmyCT said:

RockOn said:

OldArmyCT said:

Bonds pay interest, that's a given. When you sell bonds on the secondary market (short of maturity) you sell at market price which may be more or less than you paid for them. When interest rates rise bond values drop. You might do better buying a stock with a high dividend (T?). Don't forget taxes on the interest and cap gains/losses.
There is no secondary market for I-Bonds. They act more like a CD that can be redeemed at the treasury for par (minus any early redemp fees).
If you have a Treasury direct account. It'll cost you 3 months interest. For the puny amount of interest you're getting one might do better with a TIPS mutual fund. Vanguard has one.
I Bonds are paying 7% right now. Are TIPS paying that?
They don't, but to be fair, the TIPS-based funds have appreciated in value quite a bit in the past 3 years, such that their 3 year total return is north of 7% annually.

That said, the same funds will also lose value in many market conditions, sometimes rather rapidly (see 2013), whereas I Bonds offer capital protection.
There's no maximum amount on investing with a fund either.
YouBet
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AG
TamuKid said:

YouBet said:

Well, just tried to open a separate account in my wife's name and I'm having to go an extra step and snail mail an authorization letter that has been notarized. Ugh.

I guess having the same home address flagged something. I don't know.
I'd give them a call. That sounds odd, to me.
I had no issues doing the same. Neither did my mom/dad. Neither did a friend/his wife.
Just an FYI for the group...this identity authorization check is an automated pass/fail process that can't be resolved by phone, so I will have to send in the form. It's frustrating because you have to have a certifying officer sign the form and a notary public doesn't count. Only someone from a financial institution.

So, ironically, I may be going to a physical bank for the first time in at least 15 years to complete an online enrollment process if I want to proceed with this.

Government.
RockOn
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Now that it's tax season, you can have your tax refund paid in I-Bonds.

https://thefinancebuff.com/overpay-taxes-buy-i-bonds-better-than-tips.html

I'm due some money back this year from rental losses and might just do this.
YouBet
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AG
RockOn said:

Now that it's tax season, you can have your tax refund paid in I-Bonds.

https://thefinancebuff.com/overpay-taxes-buy-i-bonds-better-than-tips.html

I'm due some money back this year from rental losses and might just do this.

Thanks for reminder. I might do this as well because it looks like we might actually get a refund this year. That's the first time in about 20 years for me.
RockOn
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Finally found a good I Bond back test website to compare these to TIPS.

I'll use VTIP a short-term fund (2.5 yr average duration)
and TIP an in intermediate fund (7.5 yr average duration).

VTIP goes back to November 2012 so lets start there, and invest $10,000 in each I Bonds, VTIP, and TIP.

As of January 31, 2022 values:

The big difference is that TIP had a maximum draw down of -9.24% whereas I Bonds don't lose value since they act more as a CD. VTIP's max draw down was -3.34%.

Seems pretty clear to me that to the extent you have a short-term bond allocation in your portfolio ( BIG IF ), you should max I Bonds first and only then invest in something like VTIP. Basically the same returns and none of the volatility.

Note:
If you go back to the beginning of TIP (1/1/2003) average nominal return is 4.28% with a std deviation of 5.53% whereas I Bonds returned 3.41% with 0% std deviation.
RockOn
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Also TIP funds are positively correlated with stocks, so if you're seeking ballast to a majority-equity portfolio, nominal treasuries would better serve that purpose.

Correlation Matrix:
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/asset-correlations?s=y&symbols=VTI+VGIT+VTIP+TIP&timePeriod=2&tradingDays=60&months=36
YouBet
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AG
Good info. Thanks!
YouBet
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AG
Shameless plug so we can have all three I bond threads at top.

And mine was the first, actually.
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