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Multi-Family Apartment Investing - What's your experience?

9,313 Views | 66 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Agswinning
HoustonAg_2009
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Ag Team - I've been investing in multi-family value add apartments (2) and new apartment build (1) over the last 1+yrs. This is all considered passive income & private equity are formulating the deals with managing partners. I've been starting to receive monthly distributions on them & the K1 tax forms this past year do show some significant tax advantages.

In general -
Have they met your expectations?
Have they hit IRR and equity cash multiple projections?
Is the tax benefit more beneficial than the returns itself?

On the surface the investment seems like a great alternative investment vehicle so I've been dipping my toe in.

Would really appreciate your stories, experiences, advice.

Thanks!

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Its now my day job! Returns are generally above whats being promised and has gone very well. If you choose to go this route:

1. Choose your operator very carefully. What is their track record historically. Do they answer direct questions. Do you trust them to act ethically.
2. Read the operating agreement! Make sure you understand all the terms.
3. Understand the business plan and be sure it can reasonably be met. If returns are dependent on cap rate compression (meaning, the sales multiple they are using to value deals at fair market value go up arbitrarily in the future) run away. If they are value adding (extensive rehab) a property already in good shape, run away.
30wedge
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HoustonAg_2009 said:

Ag Team - I've been investing in multi-family value add apartments (2) and new apartment build (1) over the last 1+yrs. This is all considered passive income & private equity are formulating the deals with managing partners. I've been starting to receive monthly distributions on them & the K1 tax forms this past year do show some significant tax advantages.

In general -
Have they met your expectations?
Have they hit IRR and equity cash multiple projections?
Is the tax benefit more beneficial than the returns itself?

On the surface the investment seems like a great alternative investment vehicle so I've been dipping my toe in.

Would really appreciate your stories, experiences, advice.

Thanks!


What significant tax advantages do your K-1's show?
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Rice and Fries
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This is so true.

Anyone can slap lipstick on a pig, juice the rents up, hold it for 24 months, refi it for ~25% more value. Take the cash and then sell it sometime later.

The true ones renovating older products and getting healthy rent bumps and focused on long term holds are the ones you want to look for.
30wedge
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SoupNazi2001 said:

30wedge said:

HoustonAg_2009 said:

Ag Team - I've been investing in multi-family value add apartments (2) and new apartment build (1) over the last 1+yrs. This is all considered passive income & private equity are formulating the deals with managing partners. I've been starting to receive monthly distributions on them & the K1 tax forms this past year do show some significant tax advantages.

In general -
Have they met your expectations?
Have they hit IRR and equity cash multiple projections?
Is the tax benefit more beneficial than the returns itself?

On the surface the investment seems like a great alternative investment vehicle so I've been dipping my toe in.

Would really appreciate your stories, experiences, advice.

Thanks!


What significant tax advantages do your K-1's show?


Most don't require you to pay any taxes on distributions until the property is sold due to depreciation.
Not sure of the relationship of depreciation and distributions but the distributions would not be taxable as long as you have sufficient basis.
Hanrahan
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Been doing it for a decade. Have done very well. Slowed down considerably last two years as pricing is getting too far out of whack. Mostly in Austin, North Carolina, salt lake, and Phoenix.
Rice and Fries
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Looked at a 1031 acquisition in San Antonio, purchase is on a 4.75% cap for a 1970s vintage product. Insane. And they were pencilling in a 80% of Purchase price for real estate taxes when Bexar county is aggressively valuing deals, some at 90 - 100% of purchase.

Just surprised by the cap rate.
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Rice and Fries said:

Looked at a 1031 acquisition in San Antonio, purchase is on a 4.75% cap for a 1970s vintage product. Insane. And they were pencilling in a 80% of Purchase price for real estate taxes when Bexar county is aggressively valuing deals, some at 90 - 100% of purchase.

Just surprised by the cap rate.
Cap rates dont tell the whole story. Suppose it is horribly mismanaged with rents 40% below market, huge vacancy, and no expense management like RUBS. A 4.5% cap rate could be a smoking deal with the right management.
mazag08
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Malibu said:

Rice and Fries said:

Looked at a 1031 acquisition in San Antonio, purchase is on a 4.75% cap for a 1970s vintage product. Insane. And they were pencilling in a 80% of Purchase price for real estate taxes when Bexar county is aggressively valuing deals, some at 90 - 100% of purchase.

Just surprised by the cap rate.
Cap rates dont tell the whole story. Suppose it is horribly mismanaged with rents 40% below market, huge vacancy, and no expense management like RUBS. A 4.5% cap rate could be a smoking deal with the right management.


Not on a 70's vintage deal in San Antonio. Thats pretty whack no matter what the outlook is.

But you are generally correct. Cap Rates don't tell the whole story. A lot of times the stabilized cap rate will be 50 to 100 BP higher.

My advice is similar to Malibu's first reply. Definitely research the operator. I can't tell you how many times people juice the rent growth, rent bumps, other income, while underwriting minimal expenses and low taxes. The general mindset seems to be "get the deal, then figure out how to hit the mark later". I can understand a little juice here and there when warranted. But when I am competing with groups who are underwriting 6% annual rent growth in Corpus Christi, the only thing I can do is roll my eyes and move on to the next one.

One thing I do is use a loaded cap rate on the terminal sale. It helps line the exit with a similar tax adjusted price to the acquisition and offers a more realistic look at how a buyer would offer on it in the terminal year.
HoustonAg_2009
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Great info! Typically what I've seen on offered (projected) deals in the Multi-family renovate, refi, improve rent, sell:

* IRR ~ 18-22%
* Cash multiple ~ 1.9-2.3x (Based on 60 month hold)
* Cap Rate ~ 5.5% (Before COVID)
---- I've seen 2 deals lately with cap rates at 8% -- Is this due to current market situation? These were on 1960-1970 vintage apartments
* Preferred annual returns of 7-10%

Houston, Georgetown (TX), Oklahoma City for me.

Ideally I'd like to invest in 2 deals per year and that way after a few years I'll be receiving a decent cash flow continuously while reinvesting most, if not all, into more deals.
mazag08
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HoustonAg_2009 said:

Great info! Typically what I've seen on offered (projected) deals in the Multi-family renovate, refi, improve rent, sell:

* IRR ~ 18-22%
* Cash multiple ~ 1.9-2.3x (Based on 60 month hold)
* Cap Rate ~ 5.5% (Before COVID)
---- I've seen 2 deals lately with cap rates at 8% -- Is this due to current market situation? These were on 1960-1970 vintage apartments
* Preferred annual returns of 7-10%

Houston, Georgetown (TX), Oklahoma City for me.

Ideally I'd like to invest in 2 deals per year and that way after a few years I'll be receiving a decent cash flow continuously while reinvesting most, if not all, into more deals.


Dig in deeper to that cap rate. Going in caps aren't always based on current financials. Sometimes they will take the T-3 income, adjust expenses to "their operations", go super aggressive on taxes, and then cap off that "adjusted" NOI.

If it's 8%, is vacancy up? How is delinquency? What kind of debt are they getting, what are the terms? What is the leasing velocity and trend of rental rates for recently leased units?

You want to make sure that this deal isn't being massively propped up by government assistance. Corona caused a lot of people to stay in place. So vacancy should have gone down. At the same time, you don't want to buy a seemingly well performing deal, have government benefits stop in 3 months, and all the sudden have declining fundamentals.
Bob Knights Paper Hands
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If one were so inclined to bottom feed if/when fundamentals bottom out and prices drop - in what sort of time frame would you envision that happening? I've invested in MFR through a group that's done well and I am trying to time things so that I have the most available capital ready if/when great opportunities present themselves.
Bob Knights Paper Hands
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Also as a follow-up - what is your hope or expectation of what "great opportunities" might look like for this cycle? This might be in the next 3 months to 3 years, I guess. Are you thinking 80% of pre-covid pricing would represent good value but a reasonable expectation? Do you think reasonable expectation will be closer than that to pre-covid pricing? Do you think with this downturn good value will need to be a greater discount based on impairment in the revenues?
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Bob Knights Liver said:

Also as a follow-up - what is your hope or expectation of what "great opportunities" might look like for this cycle? This might be in the next 3 months to 3 years, I guess. Are you thinking 80% of pre-covid pricing would represent good value but a reasonable expectation? Do you think reasonable expectation will be closer than that to pre-covid pricing? Do you think with this downturn good value will need to be a greater discount based on impairment in the revenues?

The guys I work with are ex-BB investment bankers. We sat around and tried to come up with a view, and in the end we just said, we dont know. The plan is to raise new funds that dollar cost average by having presetish capital calls over the next 2-3 years. The business model calls for a 5 year hold that we underwrite to a 20% IRR hurdle. If the hurdle is met, we invest. If not, we pass.

Our educated guess right now based on current acquisitions is we are buying from distressed sellers, not necessarily distressed properties. Restauranteurs, dentists, etc. that have an investment property and need some immediate liquidity due to the crisis. Distressed properties are still breathing with stimulus, forbearance, and deferrals. To the extent there is a deluge of new distressed supply, we dont expect to see it until Q4 or Q1.
SMeyer11
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I've been wanting to invest in a multifamily syndication for a while. How have y'all found operators and deals to invest in? Or do any of you buying deals currently have an opportunity to invest with y'all?
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SMeyer11 said:

I've been wanting to invest in a multifamily syndication for a while. How have y'all found operators and deals to invest in? Or do any of you buying deals currently have an opportunity to invest with y'all?
Are you an accredited investor? If so, you can attend a local real estate meet up and youll likely meet plenty of syndicators. If not, you should still go and make a meaningful relationship with folks. Mazag08 and I both work in this space for different PE firms. All of my firms current fundraising will be for Los Angeles based deals.
mazag08
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I'm always hesitant to offer any details because there is a very fine line one in my position has to operate based on our tax status (advertising deals) since we are a private syndicator. If you would like to discuss multifamily, I'd be happy to if you are ok posting your email. Being accredited is a must though. If you're not accredited, I would strongly advise looking into it before you go any further.
mazag08
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Malibu said:

SMeyer11 said:

I've been wanting to invest in a multifamily syndication for a while. How have y'all found operators and deals to invest in? Or do any of you buying deals currently have an opportunity to invest with y'all?
Are you an accredited investor? If so, you can attend a local real estate meet up and youll likely meet plenty of syndicators. If not, you should still go and make a meaningful relationship with folks. Mazag08 and I both work in this space for different PE firms. All of my firms current fundraising will be for Los Angeles based deals.


Can you go into any detail about rent control issues? It's got to be a thorn up your side every time it's proposed or enacted.
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mazag08 said:

Malibu said:

SMeyer11 said:

I've been wanting to invest in a multifamily syndication for a while. How have y'all found operators and deals to invest in? Or do any of you buying deals currently have an opportunity to invest with y'all?
Are you an accredited investor? If so, you can attend a local real estate meet up and youll likely meet plenty of syndicators. If not, you should still go and make a meaningful relationship with folks. Mazag08 and I both work in this space for different PE firms. All of my firms current fundraising will be for Los Angeles based deals.


Can you go into any detail about rent control issues? It's got to be a thorn up your side every time it's proposed or enacted.
For turnaround projects, we simply don't invest in city of LA. For development, we consider it but it has to be pretty compelling. Statewide rent control is capped at inflation + 4%, which is currently 7% rent growth. We almost always turn around the existing tenant base, are usually above market on rents when we lease, and so 7% YoY is more than acceptable. We underwrite 2% in our models.
mazag08
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Malibu said:

mazag08 said:

Malibu said:

SMeyer11 said:

I've been wanting to invest in a multifamily syndication for a while. How have y'all found operators and deals to invest in? Or do any of you buying deals currently have an opportunity to invest with y'all?
Are you an accredited investor? If so, you can attend a local real estate meet up and youll likely meet plenty of syndicators. If not, you should still go and make a meaningful relationship with folks. Mazag08 and I both work in this space for different PE firms. All of my firms current fundraising will be for Los Angeles based deals.


Can you go into any detail about rent control issues? It's got to be a thorn up your side every time it's proposed or enacted.
For turnaround projects, we simply don't invest in city of LA. For development, we consider it but it has to be pretty compelling. Statewide rent control is capped at inflation + 4%, which is currently 7% rent growth. We almost always turn around the existing tenant base, are usually above market on rents when we lease, and so 7% YoY is more than acceptable. We underwrite 2% in our models.


Yeah that's not really that bad at all. Do the people pushing it understand that it's really not very restrictive?

And can you share some 7% with Houston? We've been stuck on flat since Harvey hit.
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mazag08 said:

Malibu said:

mazag08 said:

Malibu said:

SMeyer11 said:

I've been wanting to invest in a multifamily syndication for a while. How have y'all found operators and deals to invest in? Or do any of you buying deals currently have an opportunity to invest with y'all?
Are you an accredited investor? If so, you can attend a local real estate meet up and youll likely meet plenty of syndicators. If not, you should still go and make a meaningful relationship with folks. Mazag08 and I both work in this space for different PE firms. All of my firms current fundraising will be for Los Angeles based deals.


Can you go into any detail about rent control issues? It's got to be a thorn up your side every time it's proposed or enacted.
For turnaround projects, we simply don't invest in city of LA. For development, we consider it but it has to be pretty compelling. Statewide rent control is capped at inflation + 4%, which is currently 7% rent growth. We almost always turn around the existing tenant base, are usually above market on rents when we lease, and so 7% YoY is more than acceptable. We underwrite 2% in our models.


Yeah that's not really that bad at all. Do the people pushing it understand that it's really not very restrictive?

And can you share some 7% with Houston? We've been stuck on flat since Harvey hit.
City of LA is 3% max, and its next to impossible to get current tenants to move as they know the laws and expect mountains of cash for keys. Think properties with market rents of $2,000 month for a 1 bedroom near the beach with current tenants paying $600. Enjoy that extra $18 bump next year. RUBS? Lol. And they're all valued at a pro-forma plus 4-5% cap rate.

Best City of LA strategy is to find an old landlord and promise to pay them their same cash flow for the next 30 years and hold.

The adjacent working class communities like South Pasadena, Bell, Whittier, Santa Fe Springs, Norwalk, etc. are way more reasonable for landlords.
mazag08
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Malibu said:

mazag08 said:

Malibu said:

mazag08 said:

Malibu said:

SMeyer11 said:

I've been wanting to invest in a multifamily syndication for a while. How have y'all found operators and deals to invest in? Or do any of you buying deals currently have an opportunity to invest with y'all?
Are you an accredited investor? If so, you can attend a local real estate meet up and youll likely meet plenty of syndicators. If not, you should still go and make a meaningful relationship with folks. Mazag08 and I both work in this space for different PE firms. All of my firms current fundraising will be for Los Angeles based deals.


Can you go into any detail about rent control issues? It's got to be a thorn up your side every time it's proposed or enacted.
For turnaround projects, we simply don't invest in city of LA. For development, we consider it but it has to be pretty compelling. Statewide rent control is capped at inflation + 4%, which is currently 7% rent growth. We almost always turn around the existing tenant base, are usually above market on rents when we lease, and so 7% YoY is more than acceptable. We underwrite 2% in our models.


Yeah that's not really that bad at all. Do the people pushing it understand that it's really not very restrictive?

And can you share some 7% with Houston? We've been stuck on flat since Harvey hit.
City of LA is 3% max, and its next to impossible to get current tenants to move as they know the laws and expect mountains of cash for keys. Think properties with market rents of $2,000 month for a 1 bedroom near the beach with current tenants paying $600. Enjoy that extra $18 bump next year. RUBS? Lol. And they're all valued at a pro-forma plus 4-5% cap rate.

Best City of LA strategy is to find an old landlord and promise to pay them their same cash flow for the next 30 years and hold.

The adjacent working class communities like South Pasadena, Bell, Whittier, Santa Fe Springs, Norwalk, etc. are way more reasonable for landlords.


I much prefer Birmingham. Averaging 6% rent growth in multiple submarkets, and the most affluent is land controlled so no new builds, meaning supply is limited and rent just keeps going up and people pay it.
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mazag08 said:

Malibu said:

mazag08 said:

Malibu said:

mazag08 said:

Malibu said:

SMeyer11 said:

I've been wanting to invest in a multifamily syndication for a while. How have y'all found operators and deals to invest in? Or do any of you buying deals currently have an opportunity to invest with y'all?
Are you an accredited investor? If so, you can attend a local real estate meet up and youll likely meet plenty of syndicators. If not, you should still go and make a meaningful relationship with folks. Mazag08 and I both work in this space for different PE firms. All of my firms current fundraising will be for Los Angeles based deals.


Can you go into any detail about rent control issues? It's got to be a thorn up your side every time it's proposed or enacted.
For turnaround projects, we simply don't invest in city of LA. For development, we consider it but it has to be pretty compelling. Statewide rent control is capped at inflation + 4%, which is currently 7% rent growth. We almost always turn around the existing tenant base, are usually above market on rents when we lease, and so 7% YoY is more than acceptable. We underwrite 2% in our models.


Yeah that's not really that bad at all. Do the people pushing it understand that it's really not very restrictive?

And can you share some 7% with Houston? We've been stuck on flat since Harvey hit.
City of LA is 3% max, and its next to impossible to get current tenants to move as they know the laws and expect mountains of cash for keys. Think properties with market rents of $2,000 month for a 1 bedroom near the beach with current tenants paying $600. Enjoy that extra $18 bump next year. RUBS? Lol. And they're all valued at a pro-forma plus 4-5% cap rate.

Best City of LA strategy is to find an old landlord and promise to pay them their same cash flow for the next 30 years and hold.

The adjacent working class communities like South Pasadena, Bell, Whittier, Santa Fe Springs, Norwalk, etc. are way more reasonable for landlords.
I much prefer Birmingham. Averaging 6% rent growth in multiple submarkets, and the most affluent is land controlled so no new builds, meaning supply is limited and rent just keeps going up and people pay it.
I just sold off my Huntsville AL portfolio as the appreciation gains were too silly relative to my monthly cash flow. My scare in Birmingham is long term population growth. Yield is good today, but how likely is appreciation in the future? I admittedly havent looked at Birmingham sub markets, where are you looking?

Im heading to Winston-Salem / Greensboro, NC today to do some boots on the ground research with investors, realtors, and contractors. The data for yield is attractive, and population growth is off the charts. Prices in "the Triad" seem poised to rise due to the laws of economics, but I need to do more homework to double check the inventory.
mazag08
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AG
Birmingham has great fundamentals and good amount of companies moving in. It's close to catching institutional attention. Hoover is the new supply restricted submarket. Population growth isn't off the charts, but is steady. Downtown revitalization has attracted a lot of younger people to the city.

The triad is picking up big time. Tons of growth. Investors are starting to look there more with Charlotte being so competitive.

Columbia is also a good Carolina market.
SMeyer11
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I am not accredited. My dad is though and he is interested so I would still appreciate any info. My email is smeyer489 at yahoo.

I spoke with a big syndicator just the other day and he mentioned possibly being able to form an LLC with my dad which would allow me to invest with him on accredited deals. Does anyone know anything about that? Or any other ways to invest without being accredited?
DCC80
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I'm the controller of an in-house multi-family management company and an investor in nine apartment complexes (three through my current employer).

I got into muti-family investing through Lifetyles Unlimited. While the LU sales pitch is pretty impressive, let me tell you that there's a big difference between standing outside the sausage factory while someone describes how the sausage is being made, and being on the inside, watching how it's made or assisting in making it.

That being said, we recently sold a property in Fort that generated 50+% annual returns for its investors over the four- or five-year holding period (don't have all the numbers with me). Since taking the management of our properties in-house in January, we've increased the value of the portfolio by more than $9MM, based on a 5.5% cap rate.

A note about distributions: They are counted as a return of capital and are this tax-free, until your initial investment is depleted. While you are receiving these distributions, depending on how the property is being run and its operations accounted for, your taxable income on your K-1 will be either negative or modestly positive because depreciation minimize net reported income.

LU is a great way for someone who knows nothing about MF investing to "join the club." But it's also expensive -- a membership in LU's Preferred Investors Group was $20,000 four years ago and is more now, with a renewal fee after two years. To be fair to LU, the map it propounds is predicated upon the ideas of either you becoming an independent owner yourself, or a syndicator. If you are strictly interested in being a passive, it;'s possible to do so without paying that "entry fee."

I don't think it would be appropriate for me to post a link to my employer, but, if you are interested, subject to doing your own due diligence, feel free to PM me here.
HoustonAg_2009
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All -- Now that we're 5+ months into COVID are you starting to see some buying opportunities below pre-COVID prices? I've seen 2-3 deals recently and they are coming in 5-10% below pre-COVID price levels. I wasn't in the multi-family space during 09' collapse, but would like to hear anyone's thoughts on discount levels and how long after collapse did they become available.

Looking to deploy capital in the near-term if the deal is right!
mazag08
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HoustonAg_2009 said:

All -- Now that we're 5+ months into COVID are you starting to see some buying opportunities below pre-COVID prices? I've seen 2-3 deals recently and they are coming in 5-10% below pre-COVID price levels. I wasn't in the multi-family space during 09' collapse, but would like to hear anyone's thoughts on discount levels and how long after collapse did they become available.

Looking to deploy capital in the near-term if the deal is right!
Almost the opposite.

Acquisition assumptions need to be conservative, yet seller's aren't having to move much at all on pricing. There's a lot of dry powder sitting out there with time constraints. Couple that with cheap debt and you have acquisition pro formas not even coming close to matching the price that it takes to acquire. I've been absolutely dumbfounded by some of the deals we've lost out on.. us with institutional money in tow and heavy due diligence done prior to best and final offer.

I really think there is just an abundance of money chasing mid level returns. In their mind, better a 13% IRR than that money staying put. There's also a lot of 1031's going around.

Very weird time. It feels impossible to compete in the big markets without REALLY stretching your pro forma.. almost to the "everything has to go right for this to work, plus we need luck" scenario. You pretty much have to be very confident and excited about the physical real estate and 5 year outlook for the submarket. REALLY confident.
HoustonAg_2009
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Very insightful -- The deals that I've seen recently ended up way oversubscribed on the equity raise. As you said perhaps lots of dry powder and pent up demand due to no activity for the last 5+ months.
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mazag08
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SoupNazi2001 said:

I will say this, be careful bidding on new deals until prices correct. I'm in several Multifamily syndications and NOI is coming down across the board. Retaining occupancy is key but lots of concessions are being made to maintain occupancy right now.
Not only that, people aren't moving at the same rate as pre-covid. You have more renewals than expected, but rental rates aren't increasing on renewals. Add in a sharp rise in delinquency (and a lot of sellers are attempting to hide it on the income statements as "Covid something or another" or are dropping it below the line where you wont find it until you're already under contract.

So yes, occupancy is up. Brokers and sellers use this to say "look how well we are doing!". But more often than not, GPR is flat, loss to lease is flat or up, concessions are flat or up, and delinquency is up (which will also tie into delinquency on other income items like garages, carports, utility charges, appliance rental, rent insurance, etc). And with a lot of operators not able to evict easily, you will be inheriting residents that you need to turnover quickly. You either will, and your occupancy will drop, or you wont.. and youre stuck with flat rental rates and potentially extended delinquency. Add if you can't evict, you sure as hell aren't earning fees for move out related damages, repairs, deposit forfeiture, etc.

It's a big puzzle right now. But the ones that sound too good to be true.. likely are. You have to dig in.
Cyp0111
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I'm an AI and would be interested in potential investors if anyone on this board is looking for additional equity.
Bob Knights Paper Hands
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SoupNazi2001 said:

I will say this, be careful bidding on new deals until prices correct. I'm in several Multifamily syndications and NOI is coming down across the board. Retaining occupancy is key but lots of concessions are being made to maintain occupancy right now.

Any timing projections on when major price correction begins to be seen? Likely after stimulus runs out?
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