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Anybody work for a company that flat out lies about its products

10,968 Views | 63 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by maroon_platoon
94chem
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Was watching these Pennzoil ads talking about how their motor oil is made from natural gas instead of crude oil, and how that makes it more pure. There are just so many things untrue about this. It would drive me crazy if marketing people took some technology and made up stuff to sell it. I guess we all have conflicts from time to time, but this is just blatant misrepresentation.

Anybody remember when the sucralose people said "it tastes like sugar because it's made from sugar." Just made my skin crawl to see a fib like that. They replaced 3 hydroxyl groups and sold this poly-chlorinated molecule that started as sugar. They had to cease and desist... I'd just feel dirty as the inventor.
Waltonloads08
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AG
Which parts are they lying about?
YouBet
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Anyone that works for AT&T is caught here with their fake news rollout of "5G".
94chem
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Pennzoil is owned by Shell, who takes methane and converts it to a mixture of CO and H2 (and some CO2), otherwise known as syngas. Then through a process known as the Fischer Tropsch reaction (also called GTL), they combine the CO and the H2 to make larger hydrocarbons. These molecules include a stream that is the right molecular weight for lubricants, but they are too linear. They must be structurally isomerized, or reformed, using refining catalysts. These resulting lubricants have decent properties, but are not the best in the market. They suffer from inferior pour points (freezing points, essentially), but once the additive chemicals are added, they make a very good motor oil. Compared to a heavy crude oil stream that is reformed in a similar manner, the Pennzoil product is in fact made from natural gas, and not crude oil.

The market standard for motor oil, however, is not a GTL (Pennzoil Shell) product, and also does not come from crude. It is called a PAO, and it is made from ethane, just like polyethylene. The methane and the ethane come out of the same gas well. Shell takes the methane and makes GTL; PAO producers take the ethane, convert it to ethylene, then make ethylene oligomers such as 1-decene. The decene is the polymerized further to make the PAO-based motor oil. PAO comes from natural gas (not crude), is more pure than GTL (no secondary refining needed, no CO2 production, no syngas cleanup/purification needed), and has been around for almost 50 years.

Pennzoil makes a fine product, but consumers without PhD's in chemistry should be allowed to know that is has nothing to do with the natural gas baloney, and that if they want to buy the absolute best motor oil, they should use PAO and not GTL. Pennzoil points at the jv and says "we're better," but they deceptively ignore the varsity.
Ulrich
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Quote:

Fischer Tropsch reaction

Just wait until the left figures out that LITERAL NAZIS used this process.
Waltonloads08
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Don't bamboozle me, they are technically telling the truth.

Whether or not it is superior...errr...yeah I'd agree there. It's more of an alternative than a superior lube.

FWIW I blend crude oils for a living, but my background is finance and not chemistry. I know just enough to understand compatibility and non linear chemical properties plus potential contaminants, but beyond that my knowledge is rather...crude.

Interesting stuff, thanks geekoid
Dr. Doctor
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94chem said:

Was watching these Pennzoil ads talking about how their motor oil is made from natural gas instead of crude oil, and how that makes it more pure. There are just so many things untrue about this. It would drive me crazy if marketing people took some technology and made up stuff to sell it. I guess we all have conflicts from time to time, but this is just blatant misrepresentation.

Anybody remember when the sucralose people said "it tastes like sugar because it's made from sugar." Just made my skin crawl to see a fib like that. They replaced 3 hydroxyl groups and sold this poly-chlorinated molecule that started as sugar. They had to cease and desist... I'd just feel dirty as the inventor.
How is the sugar ad lying? It technically is made from sugar; it taste sweet because you left the parts that connect with the sweet taste buds, but chemically altered it so your body couldn't use it. (being pedantic) How is that technically wrong or lying? If it didn't taste sweet after processing, that would be lying. If they started with lignose (or whatever you want to call wood pulp) and made it into sugar, you could argue it's lying (although most organically sourced materials are sugars). Unless you started with waste fats and made sugar, then that's lying.

With the oils bit, I would argue that it is kind of like math. The only thing that matters is the answer. If you can get to the standard (API, ASE, ASME, etc.) required with the fewest steps and cheapest raw materials, how is that bad? Marketing isn't going to advertise "We use the cheapest s***, but you pay the most!".

Being a PhD chemical engineer knee-deep in designs of plants (some of which you mentioned), I agree that marketing and reality are usually not the same. But this is more of being pedantic about processes, not actually lying/not lying. If you want to have lots of fun, start looking at compressor oil standards/specs, various manufacturers and requirements. The fun begins when you realize that about 2-3 manufacturers make the majority (if not all) of the oils for that field. But there are about 10 to 50+ suppliers, depending on what you are looking for.

And newer FT chemistry allows more tailoring of the end products you want. The bigger issue is you still have a wide range of products that are produced and you have to clean that up. How much you want to clean is dependent on how much you want to pay...

~egon
Vernada
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Quote:

Anybody work for a company that flat out lies about its products
If you work for a publically traded company, there's a pretty good chance this happens ever time there is an investor call.
RogerEnright
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94chem said:

Pennzoil is owned by Shell, who takes methane and converts it to a mixture of CO and H2 (and some CO2), otherwise known as syngas. Then through a process known as the Fischer Tropsch reaction (also called GTL), they combine the CO and the H2 to make larger hydrocarbons. These molecules include a stream that is the right molecular weight for lubricants, but they are too linear. They must be structurally isomerized, or reformed, using refining catalysts. These resulting lubricants have decent properties, but are not the best in the market. They suffer from inferior pour points (freezing points, essentially), but once the additive chemicals are added, they make a very good motor oil. Compared to a heavy crude oil stream that is reformed in a similar manner, the Pennzoil product is in fact made from natural gas, and not crude oil.

The market standard for motor oil, however, is not a GTL (Pennzoil Shell) product, and also does not come from crude. It is called a PAO, and it is made from ethane, just like polyethylene. The methane and the ethane come out of the same gas well. Shell takes the methane and makes GTL; PAO producers take the ethane, convert it to ethylene, then make ethylene oligomers such as 1-decene. The decene is the polymerized further to make the PAO-based motor oil. PAO comes from natural gas (not crude), is more pure than GTL (no secondary refining needed, no CO2 production, no syngas cleanup/purification needed), and has been around for almost 50 years.

Pennzoil makes a fine product, but consumers without PhD's in chemistry should be allowed to know that is has nothing to do with the natural gas baloney, and that if they want to buy the absolute best motor oil, they should use PAO and not GTL. Pennzoil points at the jv and says "we're better," but they deceptively ignore the varsity.
Funny. After seeing that commercial I wrote my brother who works in lubricant strategy for Shell thinking that GTL was more common for lubricants. He wrote me back that switching feed stock is not common in oils as in plastics etc and that Shell's JV out of Qatar makes GTL for lubricants.

What you are complaining about is called Marketing. There are much bigger violations of ethics than this.

Anytime someone mentions Fischer-Tropsch I think of WWII Nazis or current day coal to gas to fuel facilities in China. I wouldn't think it was very cost effective unless you have stranded gas.
Ulrich
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Vernada said:

Quote:

Anybody work for a company that flat out lies about its products
If you work for a publically traded company, there's a pretty good chance this happens ever time there is an investor call.

The whole system runs on strategic ignorance.
deadbq03
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I'd argue that you find it everywhere. In government, in academia, in business.

It's our fallen human nature. Enough is rarely ever perceived to be enough, regardless of how much you actually have. At the end of the day, if it's a choice between protecting your income/assets and telling a white lie, nearly all of us will tell the white lie. The more that's at stake, the bigger the lie has to be.

(Disclaimer: don't read this as rationalization, but rather lament)
Foamcows
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Having worked at the old lever brothers soap factory in Hammond, Indiana I know a few things about dove and caress bar soap.

Throughout the years the product has been stripped down and cheapened up to the point that it is nowhere near the product it once was. In addition to the product being of lower quality, the bars continuously shrink in size, but the price doesn't.

I was also surprised to find that caress and dove bar soap are pretty much identical in formula, just with different scents added, so save yourself a few bucks and buy the caress.
ABATTBQ11
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I've seen a company sell their services based on their experience and ability only to outsource said services to a foreign company with little to no experience (without telling the customer) and then turn over the deliverable as if they did it themselves.
Dr. Doctor
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Foamcows said:

Having worked at the old lever brothers soap factory in Hammond, Indiana I know a few things about dove and caress bar soap.

Throughout the years the product has been stripped down and cheapened up to the point that it is nowhere near the product it once was. In addition to the product being of lower quality, the bars continuously shrink in size, but the price doesn't.

I was also surprised to find that caress and dove bar soap are pretty much identical in formula, just with different scents added, so save yourself a few bucks and buy the caress.
That, to me, seems like a standard practice. Especially in the food/beverage industry.

One reason I don't buy beer from InBev after they buy it (although almost all big breweries do it). Swap out lesser quality hops/oats/etc. Short change additives (food usually, not beer). Sell it as the same price or smaller box for same price and 'reap' the profits.

Essentially what did Krispy Kreme in...

~egon
ToddyHill
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It's not a lie, but the Distilled Spirits industry is really deceptive, and yet they are within the law as established by the TTB.

None of the major U.S. Vodka players distill their spirits from grain...they buy truckloads of 192 proof Grain Neutral Spirits from Ethanol manufacturers, then take those spirits and distill it one more time. Because they are the last distiller, they can make all the claims they want...such as it's pot stilled by hand, one batch at a time.

They proof it down with water to 40 to 80 proof...add their own flavors...and sell it for upwards of $20 for a 750 milliliter bottle.

Ironically, when one buys that bottle of Vodka, the most expensive 'raw material' is the Federal Tax, then the glass jar, and finally, the contents.
redline248
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Even Tito's?
redline248
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So who has the best motor oil for everyday cars?
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redline248
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I have not seen their facility and I can't tell you how they do anything

I just remember they claim handcrafted and I think they were sued over the claim a few years ago
ToddyHill
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I have no direct knowledge of Tito's. That said, I am of the opinion they purchase Grain Neutral Spirits from an ethanol producer, and then distill it one more time in house.
YouBet
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ToddyHill said:

It's not a lie, but the Distilled Spirits industry is really deceptive, and yet they are within the law as established by the TTB.

None of the major U.S. Vodka players distill their spirits from grain...they buy truckloads of 192 proof Grain Neutral Spirits from Ethanol manufacturers, then take those spirits and distill it one more time. Because they are the last distiller, they can make all the claims they want...such as it's pot stilled by hand, one batch at a time.

They proof it down with water to 40 to 80 proof...add their own flavors...and sell it for upwards of $20 for a 750 milliliter bottle.

Ironically, when one buys that bottle of Vodka, the most expensive 'raw material' is the Federal Tax, then the glass jar, and finally, the contents.


This would explain why all vodka tastes the same.
redline248
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I started drinking actual potato vodka. Much better than the grain stuff, imo
TXTransplant
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This is a pretty interesting Planet Money podcast about the vodka industry. Basically, a lot of labels don't distill anything. They buy in bulk and dilute it, put in a pretty bottle, slap a pretty label on it, and mark the price up.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/02/23/588346329/episode-826-the-vodka-proof
ToddyHill
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That is a great podcast...thank you for posting it.

Couple of things...UltraPure is NOT a distillery of 192 proof spirits. They are a broker. No large distilled spirits company would align themselves with UltraPure.

Secondly, I'm surprised Grey Goose only distills one time (which could mean they use only pot stills). Most spirits are distilled through a 'column' still, which distills the Grain Neutral Spirits 6 times.

Sorry to hi-jack this thread...that was not my intent.
Dr. Doctor
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TXTransplant said:

This is a pretty interesting Planet Money podcast about the vodka industry. Basically, a lot of labels don't distill anything. They buy in bulk and dilute it, put in a pretty bottle, slap a pretty label on it, and mark the price up.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/02/23/588346329/episode-826-the-vodka-proof


Yeah, vodka, to be best, should essentially be 2 things: ethanol and water. Everything after that is overhead. Especially if you're mixing it.

So buy the cheapest and save the cash.

~egon
evan_aggie
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94chem said:

Pennzoil is owned by Shell, who takes methane and converts it to a mixture of CO and H2 (and some CO2), otherwise known as syngas. Then through a process known as the Fischer Tropsch reaction (also called GTL), they combine the CO and the H2 to make larger hydrocarbons. These molecules include a stream that is the right molecular weight for lubricants, but they are too linear. They must be structurally isomerized, or reformed, using refining catalysts. These resulting lubricants have decent properties, but are not the best in the market. They suffer from inferior pour points (freezing points, essentially), but once the additive chemicals are added, they make a very good motor oil. Compared to a heavy crude oil stream that is reformed in a similar manner, the Pennzoil product is in fact made from natural gas, and not crude oil.

The market standard for motor oil, however, is not a GTL (Pennzoil Shell) product, and also does not come from crude. It is called a PAO, and it is made from ethane, just like polyethylene. The methane and the ethane come out of the same gas well. Shell takes the methane and makes GTL; PAO producers take the ethane, convert it to ethylene, then make ethylene oligomers such as 1-decene. The decene is the polymerized further to make the PAO-based motor oil. PAO comes from natural gas (not crude), is more pure than GTL (no secondary refining needed, no CO2 production, no syngas cleanup/purification needed), and has been around for almost 50 years.

Pennzoil makes a fine product, but consumers without PhD's in chemistry should be allowed to know that is has nothing to do with the natural gas baloney, and that if they want to buy the absolute best motor oil, they should use PAO and not GTL. Pennzoil points at the jv and says "we're better," but they deceptively ignore the varsity.



Sorry folks, just got to this thread a little late. Yeah, everything he said....took the words out of my mouth.
94chem
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redline248 said:

So who has the best motor oil for everyday cars?


This is, unfortunately, not a simple question. In the late 1990's the makers of the Pennzoil - type products persuaded the industry that they could be labeled as synthetic. So, when you get your oil changed, it's very difficult to know whether you are getting a PAO, a Pennzoil-type GTL, or a blend of these with esters (another high end lubricant). The good news is that Pennzoil is fine for everyday cars. The bad news is that consumers should have transparency in what they are using. And, if you want the best of the best, you should use PAO, and find out who uses it in their "fully synthetic" oils.
YouBet
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94chem said:

redline248 said:

So who has the best motor oil for everyday cars?


This is, unfortunately, not a simple question. In the late 1990's the makers of the Pennzoil - type products persuaded the industry that they could be labeled as synthetic. So, when you get your oil changed, it's very difficult to know whether you are getting a PAO, a Pennzoil-type GTL, or a blend of these with esters (another high end lubricant). The good news is that Pennzoil is fine for everyday cars. The bad news is that consumers should have transparency in what they are using. And, if you want the best of the best, you should use PAO, and find out who uses it in their "fully synthetic" oils.
I don't know sh^t about what y'all are talking about. I get my oil changed at dealership because its on the way to work.

I guess I can request a PAO oil?
BenTheGoodAg
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I thought you were only supposed to drink PAO based Vodka.
YouBet
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BenTheGoodAg said:

I thought you were only supposed to drink PAO based Vodka.
Maybe this is my problem.
94chem
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TXTransplant said:

This is a pretty interesting Planet Money podcast about the vodka industry. Basically, a lot of labels don't distill anything. They buy in bulk and dilute it, put in a pretty bottle, slap a pretty label on it, and mark the price up.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/02/23/588346329/episode-826-the-vodka-proof


Sucker born every minute. T&P for anyone buying that stuff for anything besides ethanol content. Keeping your eyesight and not offending your Russian host are the only real objectives here.
JMac03
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If what I drink says this

Quote:

is small batch American craft vodka at its finest. ......vodka is paved from 100% American corn.....
does that mean it isn't produced like the above?



MASHING

Our corn is a mixture of Midwest and Texas yellow corn and is naturally gluten-free. Once the corn is milled it is added to reverse osmosis water from the city of Pilot Point's local aquifer and cooked to 185 F so the sugars and starch cook out.

FERMENTATION

The hot mash is transferred to the fermentation vessels, which are designed to stay at 75 F. The yeast runs around and eats up all the sugars and starches to produce three by-products: heat, carbon dioxide, and alcohol.


COPPER POT DISTILLATION

The first distillation occurs in our copper pot still at 190 F, awaiting on the alcohol to be cooked out of the mash. We give our spent grains to a number of local farmers.


COLUMN DISTILLATION

Our 20 ft. vodka column still contains 13 perforated copper plates, which is responsible for giving our vodka smooth 10X Distilled quality.
gougler08
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94chem said:

Was watching these Pennzoil ads talking about how their motor oil is made from natural gas instead of crude oil, and how that makes it more pure. There are just so many things untrue about this. It would drive me crazy if marketing people took some technology and made up stuff to sell it. I guess we all have conflicts from time to time, but this is just blatant misrepresentation.

Anybody remember when the sucralose people said "it tastes like sugar because it's made from sugar." Just made my skin crawl to see a fib like that. They replaced 3 hydroxyl groups and sold this poly-chlorinated molecule that started as sugar. They had to cease and desist... I'd just feel dirty as the inventor.
I work for Shell Lubricants and sleep at night just fine
EclipseAg
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redline248 said:

Even Tito's?
I did a tour of a small distillery a year or so ago and the proprietor said that Tito's no longer distilled its own product; that they bought it from a ethanol plant like everyone else.
94chem
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gougler08 said:

94chem said:

Was watching these Pennzoil ads talking about how their motor oil is made from natural gas instead of crude oil, and how that makes it more pure. There are just so many things untrue about this. It would drive me crazy if marketing people took some technology and made up stuff to sell it. I guess we all have conflicts from time to time, but this is just blatant misrepresentation.

Anybody remember when the sucralose people said "it tastes like sugar because it's made from sugar." Just made my skin crawl to see a fib like that. They replaced 3 hydroxyl groups and sold this poly-chlorinated molecule that started as sugar. They had to cease and desist... I'd just feel dirty as the inventor.
I work for Shell Lubricants and sleep at night just fine


I remember when Shell used to do big time R&D. Despite the spectacular failure of isotactic polybutene water piping, and the inability to gain a foothold with their beautiful Carilon polyketone thermoplastic, they were always doing interesting chemistry. Big oil companies have increasingly stifled emerging R&D, though, and Shell appears to follow the rule rather than the exception.
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