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Index funds next bubble according to Micheal Burry

4,394 Views | 24 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by bmks270
exp
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https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/04/the-big-shorts-michael-burry-says-he-has-found-the-next-market-bubble.html

Curious what y'all think about this. Not sure how to process it or even if I agree with him. A liquidity crisis could happen in the stock market during any panic, with or without index funds so I'm not sure what he's driving at here.
Duncan Idaho
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I think his point is that most funds used by (not available to) 401ks and IRAs are pretty limited to a handful of companies and not something really broad like the Russell 5k.

So that is creating an artificial demand for those stocks, driving them up. I read another article that was saying basically the inverse. Most 402ks and IRAs aren't investing in broader funds, so a lot of the small caps are undervalued.



wessimo
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Counterpoint:

https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2019/09/debunking-the-silly-passive-is-a-bubble-myth/
deadbq03
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I don't think he's wrong per se, but the mere fact that half of investment dollars are in index funds doesn't necessarily mean SPX, QQQ, etc. There's a boatload of funds out there that are based on random Indexes you've never heard of and they're in different capitalizations, geographies, and/or sectors... X's Midcap 400 Index or Y's Latin America 50 Index or Z's North American Energy Index.

For my portfolio, what bothers me more than lack of diversification is the fact that the lion's share of these passive funds are capitalization-weighted, so if the big guys are hurting, the whole fund is hurting.

And that brings up another point: even if he's dead right, it's kind of a moot point because in any market if the big guys in the big Indexes are hurting then sentiment is screwed and everybody's hurting.
deadbq03
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Thanks for sharing. I liked his ending and it helps me clarify my last point... if you're going to try to argue that we're in an Index fund bubble, you might as well simply argue that we're in a stock market bubble. It's not the behavior of these Index funds that's going to be the problem... the funds will burst because the market bursts (and not the other way around).
500,000ags
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I raised this on a previous thread a few weeks ago. If 50% of US equities are priced by passive investment, that means one of two things.

1. Either there is assets overvalued because only half the market is seeking a true value.

Or

2. Historical multiple and cost of equity analysis needs to be changed to account for higher multiples and lower costs of equity since half the market is buying no matter what.
FrioAg 00
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Half of the market pricing is just following the valuations from the other half.

The good news is that the half the market being active is still huge, motivated by profit and greed (the best possible motive for markets) and its as close to perfect price efficiency as we can imagine

500,000ags
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Which half is following and which half is leading?
PeekingDuck
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500,000ags said:

I raised this on a previous thread a few weeks ago. If 50% of US equities are priced by passive investment, that means one of two things.

1. Either there is assets overvalued because only half the market is seeking a true value.

Or

2. Historical multiple and cost of equity analysis needs to be changed to account for higher multiples and lower costs of equity since half the market is buying no matter what.
#2 changes the nature of the meaning 'overvalued'. This all seems fairly obvious. I'm not sure why everyone is getting spun up all of a sudden. Money goes where it thinks it can make more money, regardless of real intrinsic value.
Ragoo
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If that much money is tied to indexed funds wouldn't that make the floor shallower? What percentage of float do these funds own?
03_Aggie
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deadbq03 said:

It's not the behavior of these Index funds that's going to be the problem... the funds will burst because the market bursts (and not the other way around).


I don't necessarily disagree but the structure of the funds/their investment strategy and, in some cases, their massive AUM could take a minor market issue and push it to a major market issue.
Bonfire1996
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Sorry for length....

I think his point is in multiple facets

One of the big problems with the derivatives in the mortgage backed securitization industry in the 2000s was how mortgages were chopped up into tranches, and then sold as a new group. And then the assets secured by those MBSs were chopped up and sold, and chopped up and sold, etc. The synthetic CDOs were each given an independent price/valuation that ultimately was not tied back to the risk based price of the original debt obligation.


How is that tied into this story about passive index funds? These funds are run by independent brokerage houses, and they basically are created and given their own share price. These prices are going up because the volume is really only going one way, with simple increases because people are throwing steady money into the stocks. This leads to the values of those individual funds having a higher P/E than is necessarily market. When these funds get created and cash flowed initially, they are buying the individual company stocks, which is a huge inflow of cash, raising the price of the stock on a steady basis. I think the question he is asking is, how much of Amazon's stock price/market cap is based upon a steady inflow of capital from these index funds? How much of Apple's? How much of Microsoft? And then how much of these funds' individual prices are inflated due to one way volumes? Given that dollars we are talking that are currently in retirement vehicles, it is likely significant enough to warrant discussion. And if they have inflated Pes in their own price based initially upon an inflated PE of the underlying companies due to one way volume, is there a hidden cost in the passive index funds of a few PE multiples? Likely so.


If the values of these index funds are inflated based upon multiple levels of P/E appreciation, then the stocks who are not part of these index funds are either appropriately valued or undervalued due to a lack of volume during what should have been an income growth run up. In that instance, I don't think Mr. Burry is talking about the bubble. I think he is stating there is value out there for traditional stock pickers and stock evaluators. You just need to look at the companies who have not been a part of this passive volume push. He mentions small Japanese tech firms. I think he is really looking at acquisition targets who get scooped up for big multiples. He wouldn't be buying these low volume stocks awaiting simple appreciation when values are normalized, not at what should be the end of a traditional bull market cycle before a bear. With Japan dumping liquidity onto the marketplace, these small cap companies are very likely to be gobbled up by bigger companies flush with cash. That's the play.
500,000ags
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I follow the low-cost passive strategy; the benefits are so obvious for the individual investor.

However, this stinks of herd mentality.
Woody2006
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Anyone suggesting index funds are in "a bubble" is likely to try to sell you on an expensive active strategy with their next breath.
Bonfire1996
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Woody2006 said:

Anyone suggesting index funds are in "a bubble" is likely to try to sell you on an expensive active strategy with their next breath.
do you know who the person is that is the subject of this post? He is the very antithesis of salesmen.
FrioAg 00
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I guess I'm stuck in a fundamentalists state of mind, and I'm probably an antique in terms of investor

When I evaluate the return I expect for owning a particular stock, I start with the current PE (20 = 5%) then I add expected growth rate of the company

For example: I believe Amazon's current PE gives you 1.3% return but I believe they'll average more than 10% annual growth over the next 10 years.

Microsoft gives me 3.6% with their current PE, but I believe they'll grow at a very steady and dependable 6-8% annual growth.

I own and hold both, because I expect a similar 12% return long term. Given the specific risks /variation in likely outcomes, they feel like a strong value.




If P/Es are getting "inflated" or bid up, and people aren't buying based on those ratios - they deserve the lower than expected outcomes they get
Bonfire1996
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FrioAg 00 said:

I guess I'm stuck in a fundamentalists state of mind, and I'm probably an antique in terms of investor

When I evaluate the return I expect for owning a particular stock, I start with the current PE (20 = 5%) then I add expected growth rate of the company

For example: I believe Amazon's current PE gives you 1.3% return but I believe they'll average more than 10% annual growth over the next 10 years.

Microsoft gives me 3.6% with their current PE, but I believe they'll grow at a very steady and dependable 6-8% annual growth.

I own and hold both, because I expect a similar 12% return long term. Given the specific risks /variation in likely outcomes, they feel like a strong value.




If P/Es are getting "inflated" or bid up, and people aren't buying based on those ratios - they deserve the lower than expected outcomes they get
I think that is Burry's entire point. People aren't putting any thought into stock picking, and since retail investors aren't doing it, brokerage houses aren't doing it or aren't spending any money to do it. He thinks Companies that are left on the sidelines in this volume push from index investing are undervalued and will be targeted in strategic acquisitions and provide not just greater upside potential, but less of a Beta.

His comment about there being "one exit" means he thinks if his premise is true, that values inflated as the volume melted up, then the values can certainly deflate in exasperated fashion as volume flows to the sell side. He is exactly right.
Woody2006
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Bonfire1996 said:

Woody2006 said:

Anyone suggesting index funds are in "a bubble" is likely to try to sell you on an expensive active strategy with their next breath.
do you know who the person is that is the subject of this post? He is the very antithesis of salesmen.
Yes, of course I know who he is. You get one call right in your lifetime and you can ride that fame until you die. You think he isn't selling something by staying in the public eye and trying to remain relevant in the media?
Woody2006
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Bonfire1996 said:

FrioAg 00 said:

I guess I'm stuck in a fundamentalists state of mind, and I'm probably an antique in terms of investor

When I evaluate the return I expect for owning a particular stock, I start with the current PE (20 = 5%) then I add expected growth rate of the company

For example: I believe Amazon's current PE gives you 1.3% return but I believe they'll average more than 10% annual growth over the next 10 years.

Microsoft gives me 3.6% with their current PE, but I believe they'll grow at a very steady and dependable 6-8% annual growth.

I own and hold both, because I expect a similar 12% return long term. Given the specific risks /variation in likely outcomes, they feel like a strong value.




If P/Es are getting "inflated" or bid up, and people aren't buying based on those ratios - they deserve the lower than expected outcomes they get
I think that is Burry's entire point. People aren't putting any thought into stock picking, and since retail investors aren't doing it, brokerage houses aren't doing it or aren't spending any money to do it. He thinks Companies that are left on the sidelines in this volume push from index investing are undervalued and will be targeted in strategic acquisitions and provide not just greater upside potential, but less of a Beta.

His comment about there being "one exit" means he thinks if his premise is true, that values inflated as the volume melted up, then the values can certainly deflate in exasperated fashion as volume flows to the sell side. He is exactly right.
The other side to that story is that historically, retail investors who "put thought into investing" tended to chase returns and attempt to time the market and have significantly underperformed a buy-and-hold index strategy.

If anything, the fact that these and target date funds help retail investors not have to think about investments keeps them from making big mistakes they can't recover from.
Furlock Bones
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Woody2006 said:

Bonfire1996 said:

Woody2006 said:

Anyone suggesting index funds are in "a bubble" is likely to try to sell you on an expensive active strategy with their next breath.
do you know who the person is that is the subject of this post? He is the very antithesis of salesmen.
Yes, of course I know who he is. You get one call right in your lifetime and you can ride that fame until you die. You think he isn't selling something by staying in the public eye and trying to remain relevant in the media?
this is true.
Bonfire1996
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Woody2006 said:

Bonfire1996 said:

FrioAg 00 said:

I guess I'm stuck in a fundamentalists state of mind, and I'm probably an antique in terms of investor

When I evaluate the return I expect for owning a particular stock, I start with the current PE (20 = 5%) then I add expected growth rate of the company

For example: I believe Amazon's current PE gives you 1.3% return but I believe they'll average more than 10% annual growth over the next 10 years.

Microsoft gives me 3.6% with their current PE, but I believe they'll grow at a very steady and dependable 6-8% annual growth.

I own and hold both, because I expect a similar 12% return long term. Given the specific risks /variation in likely outcomes, they feel like a strong value.




If P/Es are getting "inflated" or bid up, and people aren't buying based on those ratios - they deserve the lower than expected outcomes they get
I think that is Burry's entire point. People aren't putting any thought into stock picking, and since retail investors aren't doing it, brokerage houses aren't doing it or aren't spending any money to do it. He thinks Companies that are left on the sidelines in this volume push from index investing are undervalued and will be targeted in strategic acquisitions and provide not just greater upside potential, but less of a Beta.

His comment about there being "one exit" means he thinks if his premise is true, that values inflated as the volume melted up, then the values can certainly deflate in exasperated fashion as volume flows to the sell side. He is exactly right.
The other side to that story is that historically, retail investors who "put thought into investing" tended to chase returns and attempt to time the market and have significantly underperformed a buy-and-hold index strategy.

If anything, the fact that these and target date funds help retail investors not have to think about investments keeps them from making big mistakes they can't recover from.
All true. I read his interview with Bloomberg that this CNBC article is based on. I thought the editors of CNBC took liberties with his statements on index funds being a bubble. He didn't seem to be indicating, at least to me, that index investing was eventually going to crash. His rhetoric isn't like that of his actions in the financial crisis. I think he just sees an overvalued macro market, and some decent value left in its wake.
bmks270
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I had this idea a little bit a long time ago, that if everyone is buying an index, then the index itself replaces the underlying stocks and if "everyone" is in a small number of indexes, then the point of diversification is defeated.

I try to apply the 80/20 principle to my investments, how can I hold more of the 20 and less of the 80?.
To do this I invest in a small number of sector specific indexes, some that are equally weighted instead of market cap weighted. I choose sector indexes because it keeps me "diversified" within what I believe to be high growth sectors and I avoid holding what I believe are slow growth sectors that you'd get in a more broad index.
badharambe
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Why can't it be the other way around? What if the market bursts because the bad stocks burst?

I think he has a point. The index funds have good stock and bad ones. (Just like good mortgages and bad ones).

If the bad ones start failing, we can see a rush to the exits that will create an extra wave of selling in the good stocks.

edit: I realize that I simplified the 2008 crash (especially the leverage part) and not sure how much leverage is in the system vs leverage in passive funds
TriAg2010
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Bonfire1996 said:

FrioAg 00 said:

I guess I'm stuck in a fundamentalists state of mind, and I'm probably an antique in terms of investor

When I evaluate the return I expect for owning a particular stock, I start with the current PE (20 = 5%) then I add expected growth rate of the company

For example: I believe Amazon's current PE gives you 1.3% return but I believe they'll average more than 10% annual growth over the next 10 years.

Microsoft gives me 3.6% with their current PE, but I believe they'll grow at a very steady and dependable 6-8% annual growth.

I own and hold both, because I expect a similar 12% return long term. Given the specific risks /variation in likely outcomes, they feel like a strong value.




If P/Es are getting "inflated" or bid up, and people aren't buying based on those ratios - they deserve the lower than expected outcomes they get
I think that is Burry's entire point. People aren't putting any thought into stock picking, and since retail investors aren't doing it, brokerage houses aren't doing it or aren't spending any money to do it. He thinks Companies that are left on the sidelines in this volume push from index investing are undervalued and will be targeted in strategic acquisitions and provide not just greater upside potential, but less of a Beta.

His comment about there being "one exit" means he thinks if his premise is true, that values inflated as the volume melted up, then the values can certainly deflate in exasperated fashion as volume flows to the sell side. He is exactly right.
I think we're kidding ourselves if we think retail investors have ever driven valuations. The vast vast majority of retail investors have no idea how to perform a stock valuation and retail trading volumes are a fraction of institutional investors.

I think the shift of retail investors to index investing is an unmitigated good, because again, the vast vast majority of retail investors have no idea how to pick stocks, present company included.
TriAg2010
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bmks270 said:

I had this idea a little bit a long time ago, that if everyone is buying an index, then the index itself replaces the underlying stocks and if "everyone" is in a small number of indexes, then the point of diversification is defeated.

I try to apply the 80/20 principle to my investments, how can I hold more of the 20 and less of the 80?.
To do this I invest in a small number of sector specific indexes, some that are equally weighted instead of market cap weighted. I choose sector indexes because it keeps me "diversified" within what I believe to be high growth sectors and I avoid holding what I believe are slow growth sectors that you'd get in a more broad index.

I don't follow unless your objective is to outperform your peers rather than make an absolute return for yourself.

Let's say all publicly-traded firms become one single super-stock. The value of this super-stock is still fundamentally the composite of all the constituent firms. It is no less diversified because everyone else holds the same portfolio mix. I can no longer achieve a better return than my peers, but that is different than saying we can't achieve a return. Why should I necessarily care? I keep my eyes on my own paper anyhow.
bmks270
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TriAg2010 said:

bmks270 said:

I had this idea a little bit a long time ago, that if everyone is buying an index, then the index itself replaces the underlying stocks and if "everyone" is in a small number of indexes, then the point of diversification is defeated.

I try to apply the 80/20 principle to my investments, how can I hold more of the 20 and less of the 80?.
To do this I invest in a small number of sector specific indexes, some that are equally weighted instead of market cap weighted. I choose sector indexes because it keeps me "diversified" within what I believe to be high growth sectors and I avoid holding what I believe are slow growth sectors that you'd get in a more broad index.

I don't follow unless your objective is to outperform your peers rather than make an absolute return for yourself.

Let's say all publicly-traded firms become one single super-stock. The value of this super-stock is still fundamentally the composite of all the constituent firms. It is no less diversified because everyone else holds the same portfolio mix. I can no longer achieve a better return than my peers, but that is different than saying we can't achieve a return. Why should I necessarily care? I keep my eyes on my own paper anyhow.


I agree with your point.

I'm looking at it from the perspective that it creates a bubble risk if everyone buys and sells in unison. I don't think we are there.

Also, using the super stock example, the super stock moves the underlying constituent companies. It becomes the tail wagging the dog. Now if you own a company held by a major index, it gets wagged sometimes.
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