Wasn't there a # of posts on this board re this topic last year or so? See news today re the # of lawsuits against them? Not playing claims, Fed investigating etc. too good to be true
Sb
Sb
"Faith" based insurance
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Last: 4 yr ago by Red Fishing Ag93
thanks for the links?
Faith without works is dead...AggieStan said:
Wasn't there a # of posts on this board re this topic last year or so? See news today re the # of lawsuits against them? Not playing claims, Fed investigating etc. too good to be true
Sb
A true statement
Sounds like she signed up with a bad group for sure. I can see where her situation could easily be a preexisting condition, but if they were keeping 70% of the money for themselves then that is a scam.
I've never heard of the group that she used (Aliera.) I researched share/coverage for a long time and spent 3-4 years with one.
It sounds like Aliera is very different from all the other ones that are more mainstream that I investigated.
It sounds like Aliera is very different from all the other ones that are more mainstream that I investigated.
Sounds like she got some bad advice from her agent.
They must be using some of that 70% they keep to pay out commissions.
They must be using some of that 70% they keep to pay out commissions.
I've used one for over two years now and zero complaints. It's saved me thousands because I'm young and don't go to the doctor. Most of the insurance plans I looked at were $300+/month and a $7500 deductible. My faith based one is $180/month and a $3000 deductible/max out of pocket.
IrishTxAggie said:
I've used one for over two years now and zero complaints. It's saved me thousands because I'm young and don't go to the doctor. Most of the insurance plans I looked at were $300+/month and a $7500 deductible. My faith based one is $180/month and a $3000 deductible/max out of pocket.
I thought these things all had no obligations to hold reserves for major medical expenses and could balk at huge bills with very little arbitration options. If that's the case, I don't care how healthy you are, you are making a terrible trade to save $120/month.
This is one company that is being reported on. It's not an industry wide issue. Plenty of people use them and have used them for years.
Does it really count as using if you haven't had to actually fall upon them to make large payments?
Would love to see some people's experiences after unexpected medical bills and see if it's similar
Would love to see some people's experiences after unexpected medical bills and see if it's similar
Ag Attack is a poster here that has set up a lot of people with faith share programs.terradactylexpress said:
Does it really count as using if you haven't had to actually fall upon them to make large payments?
Would love to see some people's experiences after unexpected medical bills and see if it's similar
IrishTxAggie said:
This is one company that is being reported on. It's not an industry wide issue. Plenty of people use them and have used them for years.
That's not really the point. The point is you are comparing the monthly cost, but not taking into account that health sharing plans are extremely different than insurance.
If you are looking for a cheap alternative to avoid Obamacare penalties or whatever, then cool I guess. Just don't take your health for granted and make sure you understand the differences between the 2. When I was 25, I downgraded my insurance because I was healthy and paying all that premium was stupid. That year I happened to learn an expensive lesson when I had to go to the ER for 2 separate sports-related injuries. Didn't bankrupt me by any means... but I didn't take any vacations and ate a lot of deli meat sandwiches for dinner that year.
Always remember these are risk products at the end of the day and you never want to get caught under covered on a risk product if the downside can mean even temporary personal insolvency. Make sure you understand exactly what you are paying for.
So you downgraded your 'insurance' that cost you more than planned due to injury and you're associating that with faith based medishare programs?
IrishTxAggie said:
So you downgraded your 'insurance' that cost you more than planned due to injury and you're associating that with faith based medishare programs?
Point is still flying way over your head.
There are key differences to how a faith-based health share program and proper insurance are both run and administered. They aren't the same thing... when you quote the 2 prices and say 'yeah... this works for me', I worry that you look at insurance as just a necessary cost and not risk product. All I'm saying is I did that before and it was an expensive life lesson for me.
To be clear, I don't think Faith based health share plans are scams and they serve a purpose... I just don't really understand why somebody would utilize one over a standard health insurance plan unless they were really scraping by by the skin of their teeth to make ends meet.
It's not way over my head. But you say it yourself; they're not the same thing and then you're conflating two things about a cheaper option based off of your experience with one of them. And it's not the one that was the premise of the OP.ATM9000 said:IrishTxAggie said:
So you downgraded your 'insurance' that cost you more than planned due to injury and you're associating that with faith based medishare programs?
Point is still flying way over your head.
There are key differences to how a faith-based health share program and proper insurance are both run and administered. They aren't the same thing... when you quote the 2 prices and say 'yeah... this works for me', I worry that you look at insurance as just a necessary cost and not risk product. All I'm saying is I did that before and it was an expensive life lesson for me.
For someone that is 1099 (like myself), it's a no brainer. If you do your research about the program you choose, you know what you're getting into. Just like any investment. Do your due diligence.
This story is about one 'faith based' program that is obviously a scam. Do you want to start digging up actual insurance story nightmares vs. medishare nightmares?
My family was on MediShare for about 4 years. We are all pretty healthy and didn't meet the minimum amount to share.
In that time, we saved about 75k, not including credits/deductions we would have received on taxes. MediShare is also one of the more reputable companies.
The only real expense we had that was ridiculous was Epipens, because they shot up so much in price the last couple years.
Other than that, it was a ridiculously good plan for our family. If we had major medical they wouldn't cover, that might have been different. I only really had a couple of minor annoyances with them over that time.
In that time, we saved about 75k, not including credits/deductions we would have received on taxes. MediShare is also one of the more reputable companies.
The only real expense we had that was ridiculous was Epipens, because they shot up so much in price the last couple years.
Other than that, it was a ridiculously good plan for our family. If we had major medical they wouldn't cover, that might have been different. I only really had a couple of minor annoyances with them over that time.
I have been with both Medi-Share and Samaritans. Both have gone well. Have had ER visits and 3 babies, but nothing catastrophic. But they covered it all as they described.
At the end of the day, we are self employed and have zero access to any affordable individual plans. Don't qualify for any subsidies so an individual plan for us would be at least double in premiums and way more of a deductible.
At the end of the day, we are self employed and have zero access to any affordable individual plans. Don't qualify for any subsidies so an individual plan for us would be at least double in premiums and way more of a deductible.
IrishTxAggie said:
I've used one for over two years now and zero complaints. It's saved me thousands because I'm young and don't go to the doctor. Most of the insurance plans I looked at were $300+/month and a $7500 deductible. My faith based one is $180/month and a $3000 deductible/max out of pocket.
Say you have a catastrophic health event, how much is the program max payout and how easy is it for them to prevent you from renewing the next year? IMO these two questions are the most important of all. These are the ones that do what the concept of insurance is really intended to do.
Different programs have different maxes and you can often pay an additional amount for a higher max. I think our max was 1mm.Old Tom Morris said:IrishTxAggie said:
I've used one for over two years now and zero complaints. It's saved me thousands because I'm young and don't go to the doctor. Most of the insurance plans I looked at were $300+/month and a $7500 deductible. My faith based one is $180/month and a $3000 deductible/max out of pocket.
Say you have a catastrophic health event, how much is the program max payout and how easy is it for them to prevent you from renewing the next year? IMO these two questions are the most important of all. These are the ones that do what the concept of insurance is really intended to do.
Right. Which is why I was asking him that. A premium and OOP is only part of the equation. Some of these programs top out at relatively low amounts, like $100k, which you can breeze thru with ease of the **** hits the fan. So a difference in premium and OOP is meaningless if your ass is hanging in the breeze on the max.
I'm not saying his is necessarily bad, but he left out a piece of information that, when you boil it all down, is the key variable regarding prevention of financial ruin.
I'm not saying his is necessarily bad, but he left out a piece of information that, when you boil it all down, is the key variable regarding prevention of financial ruin.
I have never seen a plan with that $100,000 cap. Where have you seen them?
Cow Hop Ag and Bayside both say they are conservatives.
Bayside admits to being pro choice.
Bayside calls Cow Hop Ag a liberal because he's a moral man.
/ Charpie 4-13-18
Bayside admits to being pro choice.
Bayside calls Cow Hop Ag a liberal because he's a moral man.
/ Charpie 4-13-18
Saw one just the other day that was $125,000 as the base plan. You could buy up additional "points" to get to something like $500,000.
I was looking into them recently, partly due to an employee about to retire and considering these plans as a bridge to Medicare. And I'm also targeting my own retirement at 55 (in 10 years), so have been doing a little research on options and their cost.
I was looking into them recently, partly due to an employee about to retire and considering these plans as a bridge to Medicare. And I'm also targeting my own retirement at 55 (in 10 years), so have been doing a little research on options and their cost.
Samaritan Ministries does a 250k per event max. But I think you can pay more to raise that.
Christian Healthcare Ministries does a base 125k per event. They have an additional program you can buy into that either adds another 100k per event (so 225k total) and 1mm/year. If you do their top level program, there is no maximum.
Even adding that additional coverage, it is significantly better than most out of pocket insurances, plus the added benefit that you can go anywhere because you are essentially a cash patient, whereas, you can't get coverage everywhere with a Obamacare plan.
When I had regular insurance, my pediatric allergist accepted out plan, but refused to accept any patients with a personally purchased plan rather than company purchased plan. So we had to pay cash out of pocket despite paying ~1200mo for health insurance. Many doctors that were listed as accepting the plan we purchased had the same policy.
Christian Healthcare Ministries does a base 125k per event. They have an additional program you can buy into that either adds another 100k per event (so 225k total) and 1mm/year. If you do their top level program, there is no maximum.
Even adding that additional coverage, it is significantly better than most out of pocket insurances, plus the added benefit that you can go anywhere because you are essentially a cash patient, whereas, you can't get coverage everywhere with a Obamacare plan.
When I had regular insurance, my pediatric allergist accepted out plan, but refused to accept any patients with a personally purchased plan rather than company purchased plan. So we had to pay cash out of pocket despite paying ~1200mo for health insurance. Many doctors that were listed as accepting the plan we purchased had the same policy.
Right. Again, I'm not knocking them as a concept or even his plan. It's just a critical factor to consider and list as a part of "look how much better/cheaper my plan is"
For CHM a single guy would pay about $165/mo.
For that he gets:
No annual maximum
No event maximum
Shared costs over $500/event
That's a pretty good deal compared to insurance out there.
For a family of 5, you are looking at ~$475/month for that same coverage.
It is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper, plus you have more flexibility in choosing providers, and you don't have to go around getting things approved. There are a ton of benefits.
For that he gets:
No annual maximum
No event maximum
Shared costs over $500/event
That's a pretty good deal compared to insurance out there.
For a family of 5, you are looking at ~$475/month for that same coverage.
It is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper, plus you have more flexibility in choosing providers, and you don't have to go around getting things approved. There are a ton of benefits.
Becareful with the faith based insurance, some of them are losing money and goin out of business since Trump got rid of the tax penalty. Most people were getting the share plans for the exemptions. These share-plans are basically offering plates at church, money should be there if you have an accident or catastrophic event, I just wouldn't want to risk it. There are a few underwritten PPO plans available for those self employed people that think they have no options. Also places like MDAnderson and Texas Children may not accept you because you do not have a PPO network, your network is what gets you in the door at places like that
They are not subject to many (and in some cases, any) of the regulations that bind insurance companies. Little to no recourse if they decide not to pay. And anticipate that the agreement you make with them may have language along these lines that you are accepting (used Liberty, as an example):
Again, formal insurance companies aren't without risk either and have many of their own limitations, and we all have to make our own call on what we can live with. But do your homework.Quote:
This program is not an insurance company nor is it offered through an insurance company. This program does not guarantee or promise that your medical bills will be paid or assigned to others for payment. Whether anyone chooses to pay your medical bills will be totally voluntary. As such, this program should never be considered as a substitute for an insurance policy. Whether you receive any payments for medical expenses and whether or not this program continues to operate, you are always liable for any unpaid bills.
That's the point I was trying to make yesterday albeit in a roundabout way.
I'm not calling these programs scams... they have their place. But they are co-ops, not insurance. There are no capital reserve requirements backing these plans up. As long as folks are doing their due diligence and determining it is best for them, then that's good I guess.
I get concerned when folks compare prices of one of these with insurance because that comes with an implication that they are the same thing... but they actually are fairly different risk products.
I'm not calling these programs scams... they have their place. But they are co-ops, not insurance. There are no capital reserve requirements backing these plans up. As long as folks are doing their due diligence and determining it is best for them, then that's good I guess.
I get concerned when folks compare prices of one of these with insurance because that comes with an implication that they are the same thing... but they actually are fairly different risk products.
We've had Liberty Healthshare for 1.5 years and have saved a ton of money vs. any insurance plan we could have had (I'm self employed). We've had some relatively minor stuff ( 2 kids tonsils removed with overnight hospital stays) and they've pretty much paid what they were supposed to. Only real downside is they don't pay very timely (also sometimes a problem with insurance) and we've had to stay on top of them re: what is owed/paid/reimbursed/etc. I think they're just understaffed and don't have the administrative processes/procedures in place yet to efficiently handle claims. It's kind of been a pain in the ass to deal with...but the $ savings makes it well worth it. And I've never had the feeling that any of the difficulties we've experienced was due to them being shady, fraudulent, anything like that.
I get it, but personally, I see insurance as something that keeps me from going broke in a catastrophe. I don't see anywhere near a semi-guarantee in these programs that gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.
I thought I'd seen cancer insurance before. Could you purchase coverage like that as a supplement?
I am on an individualy purchased plan and I have to hope they take me to the right hospital network if I have a catastrophe or I could go bankrupt. As long as I see a doctor and a hospital who takes my insurance plan I'm good, otherwise I'm screwed. The individual plans here have no out of network coverage. Now maybe some do, but none of the options me or my insurance broker found did. That doesn't give me the warm fuzzies either.CJS4715 said:
I get it, but personally, I see insurance as something that keeps me from going broke in a catastrophe. I don't see anywhere near a semi-guarantee in these programs that gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.
Completely agree, in a lot of cases these differences are simply ignored.ATM9000 said:
That's the point I was trying to make yesterday albeit in a roundabout way.
I'm not calling these programs scams... they have their place. But they are co-ops, not insurance. There are no capital reserve requirements backing these plans up. As long as folks are doing their due diligence and determining it is best for them, then that's good I guess.
I get concerned when folks compare prices of one of these with insurance because that comes with an implication that they are the same thing... but they actually are fairly different risk products.
The likes of Medishare took in a lot of money when Obamacare began to rapidly increase premiums. It will be interesting to see how well they managed the money they took in.
It is reassuring that they have per incident maximums starting at 125K. While that won't be adequate for some serious illnesses it bodes well for the solvency of the sharing programs. As long as they are being reasonable stewards with the money they collected.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
If you get taken to an out of network facility in an emergency, your plan will pay at the customary in-network rate. It is required under ACA. You might still be balance billed by the hospital, but you will have some ability to negotiate with them.
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