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Mortgage rates

3,409 Views | 26 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by LOYAL AG
lead
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How come bankrate.com shows relatively lower interest rates than what I've been quoted? For example, I got quotes of approx 4.2% for a 15yr, no points loan from quicken and ditech while bankrate shows multiple services I've never heard of offering 3.6%. In the past, I used a mortgage broker but figured I would shop around myself this time. As far as I know, my credit is fine.

I've got another quote coming, but I just wanted to understand the discrepancy.
TamuKid
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AG
Try the real estate board too
MemphisAg1
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AG
Different rates from different lenders. It pays to shop around.
The Wonderer
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AG
lead said:

How come bankrate.com shows relatively lower interest rates than what I've been quoted? For example, I got quotes of approx 4.2% for a 15yr, no points loan from quicken and ditech while bankrate shows multiple services I've never heard of offering 3.6%. In the past, I used a mortgage broker but figured I would shop around myself this time. As far as I know, my credit is fine.

I've got another quote coming, but I just wanted to understand the discrepancy.
Have you checked lately?
lead
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no I haven't checked but will be. I don't have any debt to speak of so I just assumed.
oldarmy1
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AG
Creditkarma.com.

Free credit scores and shows most accounts attached to you.
Tecolote
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AG
lead said:

no I haven't checked but will be. I don't have any debt to speak of so I just assumed.
Surprisingly no debt at all can result in a lower credit score as payment history is a big factor. So, a current mortgage and use of credit cards can increase your score. Now, I'm not saying to carrying debt on credit cards - I pay off mine in full each month so I never pay interest. This actually results in a higher score than if you paid cash for everything. You should definitely check your score regularly. My credit cards and bank give me a free updated score each month - any large unexpected dips or jumps can be a red flag needing to be looked into.
Dr. Nefario
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[Don't bring that here. -Staff]
strbrst777
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How would you like a 13%er? I've had one; it was 13% because the bank dropped the commitment from 16% (the going rate) a few weeks before the new house was completed in 1980. The reason for the new house was that I accepted a promotional transfer to Connecticut, where real estate values and taxes ere much higher than in Houston. The 13% rate + high property values + more taxes = triple dose; but all's well that ends well.) My credit score was tops; salary met all requirements; and the loan was only about half the value of the house. Banks and S&L's were dropping like flies. CD's paid 14% or more; inflation was double-digits (10%-12% ); and the economy was in the tank: stagflation was a term often said. Later the prime rate soared to over 20%. Do I want another 14% CD? NO!!!...there are two sides to every coin. Enjoy your low rates.
Diggity
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AG
so you could get a CD for the same rate as your mortgage. What was the problem?
Farmer @ Johnsongrass, TX
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I have no idea if this link will work. I suck at PhotoBucket. (Yea! It works! Even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then) It's not 1980 info, but it's 1989 bank account interest rate info. Found this going through my dad's papers after his passing.

In 1983, I bought a new home (picked out all the stuff, colors, paper, flooring, etc.) in Richmond, TX for $108K with a 9.75% interest rate. Nine (9) months later, get transferred to Lubbock. Sold the home for $84K. 24K loss, because you could buy the same model for new at $95K. That's how fast the market was falling and a TX oil economy on its heels. Six months later, that same $95K model could be built on any of the developers lots for $78K.

{EDIT: Well,....it was working last night..(?) }

62strat
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AG
Upper class Federal income tax was like 60-95% for decades after WWII.

We have no reason to ever complain about mortgage or income tax rates.
evestor1
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We are too far inflated to raise interest rates much higher. Let's talk home mortgage. 100k home in 1980 is worth 500-600k today. 10% then was 800ish/month. 10% today is 4000-5000/month.


My personal belief is that we have two choices. Low interest rates or ruin the most valuable asset Americans own. I'm willing to believe we won't ruin property value considering almost everything is tied to it (wealth,taxes,debt)

26.2
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62strat said:

Upper class Federal income tax was like 60-95% for decades after WWII.

We have no reason to ever complain about mortgage or income tax rates.
Yes....yes we do. Taxation is theft.
DannyDuberstein
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AG
Not as extreme as some of the older examples above from the 70's and early 80's, but rates were around 8% when we bought our first house in 2000. Not that long ago in the big picture.
62strat
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AG
Yeh we were like 6.5% in 2005.

We're half that now.
Farmer @ Johnsongrass, TX
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evestor1 said:

We are too far inflated to raise interest rates much higher. Let's talk home mortgage. 100k home in 1980 is worth 500-600k today. 10% then was 800ish/month. 10% today is 4000-5000/month.


My personal belief is that we have two choices. Low interest rates or ruin the most valuable asset Americans own. I'm willing to believe we won't ruin property value considering almost everything is tied to it (wealth,taxes,debt)


IMO, Texas and other oil economy dependent States reset their economies in the 80's. I lived way north of the Red River for half that period and no one in those States knew what was happening "down south". However, the north, east, and midwest got their economic reset's a few years later. I don't think an economic reset is out of the question today.

The Ben Bernanke Zero Interest Rate Policy created artificial demand with printing dollars, buying debt with those freshly pumped out dollars and flooding the economy with cheap cash and low interest rates, along with President Obama issuing more debt at $20 trillion. Bernanke studied The Great Depression and his graduate work theory was focused on the policy he laid forth noted above - and to his credit, I truly believe it worked. That's why Ben was chosen to succeed Alan Greenspan in 2006. Now that the economy is growing again the engines have to be reversed via interest rate normalization, otherwise this artificial demand bubble will pop.

Yes, higher interest rates would kill the "value" of a home, yet we have done it before. Personally, I went through it in the 80's in Texas and the 90's in the Midwest, and I arrived in the desert southwest at the bottom of their 2nd cycle in the late 90's. Value decay would not be something new. Bottomline is, policy will now be inflating dollars via tight money supply and higher interest rates so that $20 Trillion can start being paid down with those inflated dollars. .... Just the opposite of creating an artificial economy with pumping out cash and low interest rates to stimulate artificial growth, that had its beginning in 2008. 10 Years of artificial demand and it certainly could be the next 10 years of the reverse.

For me, I would never tie my wealth to a house - ever. I got a hellava education in 1983/84 with a $24K loss on a 9 month old home - that's not an investment, it's a gamble. All the years thereafter, whether it be family gatherings or office water cooler talk, I bit my tongue when I heard the "elders" tell young people to "buy a house, build equity and quit pissing money down the drain on rent". Ha, I could have rented a long time with that $24K I lost on an "investment". I don't hear the "buy a house..." quip much anymore, but I chuckle when I do. From this experience came a math equation I used to determine if renting or buying is the best solution for any market where I lived. I lost $24K and had an income of $28K, or 85.7% of my income. The $24K was the best cost of tuition for an education that allowed me to be a lot smarter than had it happened later in my life with wealth tied to a house .... and it's paid off many times over my career. On the other hand, I have friends and former workmates that experienced total devastation in their lives, late in life, with little chance to recover, due to wealth tied to a house. I don't recommend it. Houses collect dust, money collects interest.
62strat
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AG
Just like any investment, why would you buy high and sell low?
26.2
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On the flip side of that, the best investment I ever made was a rent house I bought 10 years ago. It got me hooked on the process of real estate investing and helped teach me the lessons that I needed to learn to do good things later.
The Wonderer
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I've been contemplating buying my first home and talked to an FA buddy of mine and his advice was to wait the market out longer so that interest rates can suppress home prices more.
LostInLA07
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AG
I suppose it depends how long you plan to stay in the house because, although the home price may go down, the amount you pay in interest over the term of the mortgage will go up.
LOYAL AG
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AG
evestor1 said:

We are too far inflated to raise interest rates much higher. Let's talk home mortgage. 100k home in 1980 is worth 500-600k today. 10% then was 800ish/month. 10% today is 4000-5000/month.


My personal belief is that we have two choices. Low interest rates or ruin the most valuable asset Americans own. I'm willing to believe we won't ruin property value considering almost everything is tied to it (wealth,taxes,debt)


Why would rising rates ruin my home? What I think rising rates will do is make homes smaller. My partner in my construction company has been a subcontractor for close to three decades and one of his recurring comments is that 2000 SF used to be the "normal" house he worked on but now it's closer to 2800 SF. Falling rates have allowed folks to spend more money on their homes and that has manifest itself in things like square footage and finish out elements such as granite, higher end trim, flooring, etc. As rates rise those things are going to have to retreat. People aren't likely to stop buying houses unless the economy craters. You have to live somewhere.
evestor1
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I dont think you understood my post. My theory is that higher interest rates will generally ruin houses as a valuable short-term asset...not ruin actual houses.


I think your theory of "making homes smaller" is correct. Like so many others, I am a landlord, and all of my rentals are on the smaller end (under 1500sf.)
Farmer @ Johnsongrass, TX
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Hot off the press.

https://www.marke****ch.com/story/new-home-sales-collapse-in-january-as-momentum-wavers-2018-02-26

Link is Market WATCH

The numbers: New-home sales ran at a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 593,000 in January, the Commerce Department said Monday.

My personal seasonally adjusted rate is 600,000 for sales of single family homes or 50,000 per month.

Marke****ch consensus forecast ws 648,000 rate. (That's a Torbush WOW!)

Slow sales adds to supply, one contributing piece that adds to the "ruin" of home values. Rising interest rates is another.

I like the smaller home concept. Always said a development of smaller homes of higher quality has a niche market of its own. However, most folks lean to larger sqft.

Other notable economic announcements this week.
*FOMC/Powell speaks to Congress on Tues.
*GDP announced Thurs and will be the 1st Revision of Q4
*Jobless Claims on Thurs
*Personal Consumption Reporting on Thurs - Personal Income and Consumer Spending
CS78
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Pick and choose. Big supply crunch in existing home sales driving prices up and sales volume down.

https://www.marke****ch.com/story/existing-home-sales-tumble-at-the-fastest-pace-in-more-than-3-years-as-supply-crunch-deepens-2018-02-21

"The big picture: It's still all about supply - or lack of it - in the housing market. At the current sales pace, it would take 3.4 months to exhaust all available inventory, which is exceptionally lean compared to long-time averages. Inventory was 9.5% lower than a year ago in January, and marked the 32nd straight month of annual declines. In response, the median price jumped 5.8% to $240,500.

What they're saying: "Realtors in most areas are saying buyer traffic is even stronger than the beginning of last year," said Lawrence Yun, NAR's chief economist. But "sales failed to follow course and far lagged last January's pace. It's very clear that too many markets right now are becoming less affordable and desperately need more new listings to calm the speedy price growth."

Farmer @ Johnsongrass, TX
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CS78 said:

Pick and choose. Big supply crunch in existing home sales driving prices up and sales volume down.

https://www.marke****ch.com/story/existing-home-sales-tumble-at-the-fastest-pace-in-more-than-3-years-as-supply-crunch-deepens-2018-02-21

"The big picture: It's still all about supply - or lack of it - in the housing market. At the current sales pace, it would take 3.4 months to exhaust all available inventory, which is exceptionally lean compared to long-time averages. Inventory was 9.5% lower than a year ago in January, and marked the 32nd straight month of annual declines. In response, the median price jumped 5.8% to $240,500.

What they're saying: "Realtors in most areas are saying buyer traffic is even stronger than the beginning of last year," said Lawrence Yun, NAR's chief economist. But "sales failed to follow course and far lagged last January's pace. It's very clear that too many markets right now are becoming less affordable and desperately need more new listings to calm the speedy price growth."


You forgot this part from the same article, ... not that it matters...just sayin'..

>
"The numbers: Existing-home sales ran at a seasonally adjusted annual pace of 5.38 million in January, the National Association of Realtors said Wednesday.

What happened: Sales of previously-owned homes slid 3.2% in January, the second consecutive monthly decline, the Realtor group said. Sales were 4.8% lower than a year ago, the steepest annual decline in more than three years.

Economists surveyed by Marke****ch had forecast a 5.59 million annual pace."

"As disappointing as this result is, the underlying sources of support are still in place..job creation and wage growth," wrote Jennifer Lee, senior economist with BMO Capital Markets. "But standing in the way of stronger sales are the lack of options for potential buyers, rising prices and rising mortgage rates."
>

The info in my post was New Home Sales. Reads like the same thing is happening in Existing Home Sales, no?

3.4 month supply of Existing Homes

6.1 month supply of New Homes

Regardless, the pace is off for both, New & Existing, and there's no disputing.

The cure for high prices are high prices.


Casey TableTennis
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AG
LOYAL AG said:

evestor1 said:

We are too far inflated to raise interest rates much higher. Let's talk home mortgage. 100k home in 1980 is worth 500-600k today. 10% then was 800ish/month. 10% today is 4000-5000/month.


My personal belief is that we have two choices. Low interest rates or ruin the most valuable asset Americans own. I'm willing to believe we won't ruin property value considering almost everything is tied to it (wealth,taxes,debt)


Why would rising rates ruin my home? What I think rising rates will do is make homes smaller. My partner in my construction company has been a subcontractor for close to three decades and one of his recurring comments is that 2000 SF used to be the "normal" house he worked on but now it's closer to 2800 SF. Falling rates have allowed folks to spend more money on their homes and that has manifest itself in things like square footage and finish out elements such as granite, higher end trim, flooring, etc. As rates rise those things are going to have to retreat. People aren't likely to stop buying houses unless the economy craters. You have to live somewhere.
In a recent piece from Goldman Sachs, they suggested that real estate is becoming more interest rate sensitive and expected to continue on that path. Essentially as land value makes up more and more of the total value of a property, the more it acts like a perpetuity or bond. Further, by lowering the use of the mortgage interest deduction, tax reform should cushion even less of real estate's natural rate sensitivity.

They were still bullish on real estate, but with a material drag due to negative interest rate impacts over the next few years.

That view would still be a long way from ruining the value of your home, but the value in an open market may become more volatile than we've experienced in the past.


LOYAL AG
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AG
Casey TableTennis said:

LOYAL AG said:

evestor1 said:

We are too far inflated to raise interest rates much higher. Let's talk home mortgage. 100k home in 1980 is worth 500-600k today. 10% then was 800ish/month. 10% today is 4000-5000/month.


My personal belief is that we have two choices. Low interest rates or ruin the most valuable asset Americans own. I'm willing to believe we won't ruin property value considering almost everything is tied to it (wealth,taxes,debt)


Why would rising rates ruin my home? What I think rising rates will do is make homes smaller. My partner in my construction company has been a subcontractor for close to three decades and one of his recurring comments is that 2000 SF used to be the "normal" house he worked on but now it's closer to 2800 SF. Falling rates have allowed folks to spend more money on their homes and that has manifest itself in things like square footage and finish out elements such as granite, higher end trim, flooring, etc. As rates rise those things are going to have to retreat. People aren't likely to stop buying houses unless the economy craters. You have to live somewhere.
In a recent piece from Goldman Sachs, they suggested that real estate is becoming more interest rate sensitive and expected to continue on that path. Essentially as land value makes up more and more of the total value of a property, the more it acts like a perpetuity or bond. Further, by lowering the use of the mortgage interest deduction, tax reform should cushion even less of real estate's natural rate sensitivity.

They were still bullish on real estate, but with a material drag due to negative interest rate impacts over the next few years.

That view would still be a long way from ruining the value of your home, but the value in an open market may become more volatile than we've experienced in the past.



I get the point but rates are but one element putting price pressure on homes and I think the cumulative effect of those things are going to hurt new more than existing. Another element that's going to put pressure on the new market is the labor shortage that the construction industry is experiencing. As rates rise starts may stagnate which would help alleviate the labor problems but we're still going to see rising prices due to the land issue you mentioned as well as tightness in the labor market. Bottom line to me is that there are a lot of things putting upward pressure on prices for new homes versus existing ones and rates is just one of them.

But if we're right about the impact of interest rates on the design of new homes then it seems to me that my 2800 SF home sitting on 3+ acres with granite, custom hand made cabinets, double crown and tile/wood floors throughout will be more appealing because it's bigger and finished nicer than what you can get new.
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