Business & Investing
Sponsored by

Rent Seeking Behavior: what is it? Why does it exist?

2,960 Views | 21 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by LarLar
wheelskjm
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Rent seeking behavior:
Quote:

Imagine you run a barbershop and you learn that someone is planning to open a rival business down the street. What do you do?

One option, of course, would be to compete the old-fashioned way by offering lower prices or better service. But the old-fashioned way is hard! Wouldn't it be nice if you could keep your competitor from setting up shop in the first place? There's evidence that a growing number of businesses in the U.S. are trying to do exactly that. And while that may be good for them, it's bad for entrepreneurs, workers and the economy as a whole.

On Tuesday, a Senate subcommittee held a hearing on "occupational licensing" laws, which require government-issued licenses to perform certain types of work. Such laws have long existed for doctors, lawyers and others in highly skilled professions, but they are increasingly spreading to low- and mid-skill jobs as well. A White House report last summer found that occupational licensing requirements have increased fivefold since the 1950s, covering more than a quarter of all workers in 2008. Cosmetologists, tree trimmers and even interior designers need licenses in some states.

Defenders of occupational licensing typically argue that the rules help protect consumers and workers, and that's undoubtedly true in some cases. I want the people filling my cavities to know what they're doing. But it's hard not to suspect that in many cases, these rules serve another purpose: to make it harder for new competitors to enter the marketplace. In Nevada, according to Politico, barbers need more than two years of training to qualify for a license; that's a high bar to anyone looking to break into the business.

Economists call this kind of behavior "rent-seeking," which is another way of saying "gaming the system to make more money than you've earned." (A company that wins a no-bid contract through political connections is a rent-seeker. So is a CEO who gets a raise by stacking the board of directors with friends.) Occupational licenses are good for existing businesses, which face less competition, and for workers who already have licenses, who according to one study earn roughly 15 percent more than they would in a free market. But they're bad for everyone else. Research has found that occupational licenses inhibit entrepreneurship, especially among low-income workers. They also raise prices, lower productivity and limit workers' ability to change careers or cities. One recent study estimated that licensing laws cost the U.S. as many as 2.85 million jobs. (Cont.)


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-rent-seeking-is-too-damn-high/

Until 6 months ago, I hadn't known this term existed, but I believe it encompasses most of the things I find wrong with govt and business practices, resulting in the consolidation of industry under the fewest people, at the cost of everyone else.

B&I board, do you have any opinions on this type of behavior?

When is it a good thing?

Should it be restricted? Or are we attempting that already, but poorly?

How do you change this behavior?

Have you or your businesses used "rent-seeking" means to restrict competition?

Is it "just the way things work" and "stop trying to change things you can't control"?

Quote:

Occupational licensing is just one example of rent-seeking. For another, see this Aruna Viswanatha story in The Wall Street Journal on the rise of noncompete agreements in fields such as journalism and fast food. Yes, fast food: The sandwich chain Jimmy John's has had some employees sign contracts barring them from working at any other sandwich shop near its locations. University of Maryland economist Evan Starr has found that such policies inhibit workers from changing jobs, hurting their bargaining power and thereby benefiting companies at the expense of their employees.

There is evidence that rent-seeking, in various forms, is becoming more common in the U.S. economy. In a recent paper, economist Dean Baker argued that rent-seeking has driven much of the recent increase in income inequality. And while Baker is a liberal, conservatives are also concerned about rent-seeking, such as land-use restrictions that make it hard to build housing in high-priced coastal cities. The White House is worried about occupational licensing, but it was Mike Lee, one of the Senate's most conservative members, who called Tuesday's hearing.

I've written previously about the long-term decline of dynamism in both labor and business Americans are changing jobs less often and they're starting fewer companies. Incumbent businesses, meanwhile, are thriving the U.S. economy has never been as dominated by big corporations as it is today. Rent-seeking behavior isn't the only explanation for those trends, and perhaps not even the main one, but it may be the one most easily addressed by policymakers.

The everything store

After spending 20 years convincing us that, yes, it really does make sense to order our cat litter, peanut butter and frying pans online, Amazon.com might be about to start telling us to (gasp!) go to the store.

The details here are a little fuzzy. On Tuesday, The Wall Street Journal reported that General Growth Properties, a big mall owner, said Amazon plans to open 300 to 400 physical bookstores in coming years. General Growth backed away from those comments the next day, but only partway; Amazon, for its part, hasn't commented.

Moving from virtual to bricks-and-mortar might seem counterintuitive, but there is precedent for the move. Sears, Roebuck began as a mail-order catalog, the 19th century version of the World Wide Web. It wasn't until the 1920s that Sears began opening retail stores to serve urban consumers who wanted to browse products before buying.


FANG companies are going to be excellent (and are already) rent-seekers.

I'm mortally terrified about the monopolization of user generated data, the analytics of said data, and abuse, and the disinterested public. But that's a personal thing.


In my eyes, this is a dramatic problem, but I see things differently than some of you and would love perspective.
YouBet
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Rent seeker is new term for me as well, but I agree it's concerning. The example they used is a good one - the barber or hair stylist. The training and certification required for that is ridiculous beyond belief. The worst case outcome from that is a hit to your pride for a few weeks if you get a bad result. The barriers to entry for that occupation should not be nearly as high as they are.

What's more interesting to me is the non-compete clause trends they mention. I just read an article recently where Idaho passed (or is about to pass) the most restrictive non-compete laws in the country. It will have huge repercussions to business. I will try and find article and link here....

This kind of, sort of seems akin to the patent troll debates in recent years that stifles innovation.

Idaho article:. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/14/business/economy/boise-idaho-noncompete-law.html
Diggity
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
you see it everywhere. The people in power propose arduous and expensive regulations that seek to weed out the new entrants, while putting in loopholes for themselves.

They use the AMA as an example of well-intended rules, but they're also a clear lobby that seeks to increase the barriers to entry in the medical field and prop up the value of being a doc.
civil77
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Was helping a friend with repair of an on site septic facility....you know, the thingy used by those without the collection and treatment infrastructure common to towns and cities.

By the time the repair is complete and inspected it will have required 8 licenses issued by the State of Texas.

These licenses generate revenue.

Most people overlook this as an insignificant consequence for being able to **** while sitting or sit while ****ting.
LOYAL AG
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I apologize in advance for a political post on this forum but the US is increasingly becoming a Fascist nation. Big government and big business are partners in crime. Both major parties are beholden to Wall Street and today's reality is that the elite and the poor conspire to control the middle class. Rules that deter competition and discourage entrepreneurs are a means of controlling the middle class worker who is an "asset" to mega-corp.
Ag92NGranbury
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Quite frankly, public schools being pugnaciously against vouchers is rent seeking behavior.

Who wants competition with nice healthcare and a pension?
ATM9000
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Ag92NGranbury said:

Quite frankly, public schools being pugnaciously against vouchers is rent seeking behavior.

Who wants competition with nice healthcare and a pension?


Quite frankly, that's not rent seeking.
Ag92NGranbury
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
ATM9000 said:

Ag92NGranbury said:

Quite frankly, public schools being pugnaciously against vouchers is rent seeking behavior.

Who wants competition with nice healthcare and a pension?


Quite frankly, that's not rent seeking.
Then disprove it...
ATM9000
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Ag92NGranbury said:

ATM9000 said:

Ag92NGranbury said:

Quite frankly, public schools being pugnaciously against vouchers is rent seeking behavior.

Who wants competition with nice healthcare and a pension?


Quite frankly, that's not rent seeking.
Then disprove it...


You are the one who threw out an example of something that doesn't fit the definition of rent seeking... You are in the prove it seat right now, not me.
Ag92NGranbury
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
ATM9000 said:

Ag92NGranbury said:

ATM9000 said:

Ag92NGranbury said:

Quite frankly, public schools being pugnaciously against vouchers is rent seeking behavior.

Who wants competition with nice healthcare and a pension?


Quite frankly, that's not rent seeking.
Then disprove it...


You are the one who threw out an example of something that doesn't fit the definition of rent seeking... You are in the prove it seat right now, not me.
Over 90% of K-12 kids in Texas go to public school. Would you consider this a monopoly?

Teacher unions lobby for better hours, pay and benefits from the state. Do you consider this manipulation of educational markets using legislation?

Do teacher unions adamantly oppose voucher use in Texas which would increase education competition over the long term?

Would vouchers change lucrative educational pension and health care benefits in the State of Texas?

"An example of rent-seeking in a modern economy is spending money on lobbying for government subsidies in order to be given wealth that has already been created, or to impose regulations on competitors, in order to increase market share."


P.S. I'm pro public schools... but a little competition never hurt anyone.
Diggity
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
public schools are funded with public money. I don't see the issue there.
ATM9000
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Ag92NGranbury said:

ATM9000 said:

Ag92NGranbury said:

ATM9000 said:

Ag92NGranbury said:

Quite frankly, public schools being pugnaciously against vouchers is rent seeking behavior.

Who wants competition with nice healthcare and a pension?


Quite frankly, that's not rent seeking.
Then disprove it...


You are the one who threw out an example of something that doesn't fit the definition of rent seeking... You are in the prove it seat right now, not me.
Over 90% of K-12 kids in Texas go to public school. Would you consider this a monopoly?

- no

Teacher unions lobby for better hours, pay and benefits from the state. Do you consider this manipulation of educational markets using legislation?

- no and I don't know how anyone could. Do you consider police and fire departments as rent seekers? Less private markets for those services and they lobby for higher pay and more benefits too.

Do teacher unions adamantly oppose voucher use in Texas which would increase education competition over the long term?

- they do but the second part of your question is in conclusive at best

Would vouchers change lucrative educational pension and health care benefits in the State of Texas?

- possibly

"An example of rent-seeking in a modern economy is spending money on lobbying for government subsidies in order to be given wealth that has already been created, or to impose regulations on competitors, in order to increase market share."


P.S. I'm pro public schools... but a little competition never hurt anyone.



Answers above. If teachers unions made it illegal to open a school privately or put taxes on it for seemingly no reason, that might be rent seeking. Nothing of what you wrote above is based in fact or clear examples of rent seeking.
Ag92NGranbury
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
ATM9000 said:

Ag92NGranbury said:

ATM9000 said:

Ag92NGranbury said:

ATM9000 said:

Ag92NGranbury said:

Quite frankly, public schools being pugnaciously against vouchers is rent seeking behavior.

Who wants competition with nice healthcare and a pension?


Quite frankly, that's not rent seeking.
Then disprove it...


You are the one who threw out an example of something that doesn't fit the definition of rent seeking... You are in the prove it seat right now, not me.
Over 90% of K-12 kids in Texas go to public school. Would you consider this a monopoly?

- no

Teacher unions lobby for better hours, pay and benefits from the state. Do you consider this manipulation of educational markets using legislation?

- no and I don't know how anyone could. Do you consider police and fire departments as rent seekers? Less private markets for those services and they lobby for higher pay and more benefits too.

Do teacher unions adamantly oppose voucher use in Texas which would increase education competition over the long term?

- they do but the second part of your question is in conclusive at best

Would vouchers change lucrative educational pension and health care benefits in the State of Texas?

- possibly

"An example of rent-seeking in a modern economy is spending money on lobbying for government subsidies in order to be given wealth that has already been created, or to impose regulations on competitors, in order to increase market share."


P.S. I'm pro public schools... but a little competition never hurt anyone.



Answers above. If teachers unions made it illegal to open a school privately or put taxes on it for seemingly no reason, that might be rent seeking. Nothing of what you wrote above is based in fact or clear examples of rent seeking.
Let's continue...

So if American Airlines has 90% of all flights in the domestic US, that is not a monopoly?

Police and fire could potentially be rent seekers... see Dallas issue with pensions. When private markets lobby politicians for more advantages, that is definitely considered rent seeking behavior. You don't think that holds true in the public goods sector?

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2013/05/02/public-sector-employees-receive-generous-benefits-due-to-politics

So you don't believe that educational vouchers would increase competition in Texas? Let's say a $5k voucher is provided... do you not think that some families would take advantage of that and send kids to private?

You made the statement 'if teachers unions made it illegal to open a school privately'... then what is the difference between that and not allowing vouchers which would help put private schools on a more level playing field with public? In the original example on this thread, it was established barbershops artificially increasing license fees to prevent additional competition. I think we both agree that the behavior is rent seeking, just to what extent.

~
A good looking girl was sitting beside a millionaire at a banquet. The rich guy leans over and whispers, 'want to sleep with me for a million dollars?' The girl exclaims 'sure!'

A few minutes later, he leans back and says, 'what about $1000?' to which she replies, 'no way! what kind of girl do you think I am?'

The guy says...'we've already established that... now we are just haggling over the price.'
wheelskjm
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
https://medium.com/@teempai/a-world-of-open-data-6c371964b7af

Maybe this is the solution to my qualms about data. IncentivizING data sharing EVERYTHING anonymously and allowing everyone access to it always.

https://medium.com/@teempai/a-world-of-open-data-6c371964b7af
AgBank
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
ATM9000 said:

Ag92NGranbury said:

Quite frankly, public schools being pugnaciously against vouchers is rent seeking behavior.

Who wants competition with nice healthcare and a pension?


Quite frankly, that's not rent seeking.
Yes it is.

Quote:

If teachers unions made it illegal to open a school privately or put taxes on it for seemingly no reason, that might be rent seeking.
All you have to do is obstruct competition for financial gain to meet the meaning "rent seeking". Lobbying against vouchers to prevent the money from going to competition is a form of rent seeking.
ATM9000
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
AgBank said:

ATM9000 said:

Ag92NGranbury said:

Quite frankly, public schools being pugnaciously against vouchers is rent seeking behavior.

Who wants competition with nice healthcare and a pension?


Quite frankly, that's not rent seeking.
Yes it is.

Quote:

If teachers unions made it illegal to open a school privately or put taxes on it for seemingly no reason, that might be rent seeking.
All you have to do is obstruct competition for financial gain to meet the meaning "rent seeking". Lobbying against vouchers to prevent the money from going to competition is a form of rent seeking.


'Financial gain' is a key word here since public education is not for profit. On top of that, it is both compulsory AND available to all of a segment of the population. It's basically a public good in this country. If air travel were a requirement for this country and available to every citizen in a segment of the population and not for profit, then no... AA owning 90% of the market wouldn't be a monopoly in my opinion because that would make it a public good.

Rent seeking does not equal 'lobbying' either.

Hell, I'd argue lobbying FOR grants to go to for profit charter schools looks a lot more like rent seeking than what you are suggesting.
AgBank
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I agree that lobbying for grants is a great example of rent seeking just as public school teachers lobbying against anything that would diminish their power / economic gain. The organization or person seeking rent in this instant is the charter schools and possibly anyone who benefits from vouchers or the grants.


Teacher healthcare in the alternative example would be part of the economic gain if they thought that splitting money with charter schools would put that into jeopardy. The organization or person seeking rent in this instant is the teachers or teachers' unions / lobbying group.

I am not saying one is worse than the other, I am just pointing out rent seeking.
topher06
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ATM9000 said:

AgBank said:

ATM9000 said:

Ag92NGranbury said:

Quite frankly, public schools being pugnaciously against vouchers is rent seeking behavior.

Who wants competition with nice healthcare and a pension?


Quite frankly, that's not rent seeking.
Yes it is.

Quote:

If teachers unions made it illegal to open a school privately or put taxes on it for seemingly no reason, that might be rent seeking.
All you have to do is obstruct competition for financial gain to meet the meaning "rent seeking". Lobbying against vouchers to prevent the money from going to competition is a form of rent seeking.


'Financial gain' is a key word here since public education is not for profit. On top of that, it is both compulsory AND available to all of a segment of the population. It's basically a public good in this country. If air travel were a requirement for this country and available to every citizen in a segment of the population and not for profit, then no... AA owning 90% of the market wouldn't be a monopoly in my opinion because that would make it a public good.

Rent seeking does not equal 'lobbying' either.

Hell, I'd argue lobbying FOR grants to go to for profit charter schools looks a lot more like rent seeking than what you are suggesting.
Are you or your wife a public school teacher?
Diggity
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Once again... Public institutions not allowing public money to be diverted to private enterprises may be considered anti-competitive, but it doesn't fit the definition of rent seeking.
ATM9000
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
topher06 said:

ATM9000 said:

AgBank said:

ATM9000 said:

Ag92NGranbury said:

Quite frankly, public schools being pugnaciously against vouchers is rent seeking behavior.

Who wants competition with nice healthcare and a pension?


Quite frankly, that's not rent seeking.
Yes it is.

Quote:

If teachers unions made it illegal to open a school privately or put taxes on it for seemingly no reason, that might be rent seeking.
All you have to do is obstruct competition for financial gain to meet the meaning "rent seeking". Lobbying against vouchers to prevent the money from going to competition is a form of rent seeking.


'Financial gain' is a key word here since public education is not for profit. On top of that, it is both compulsory AND available to all of a segment of the population. It's basically a public good in this country. If air travel were a requirement for this country and available to every citizen in a segment of the population and not for profit, then no... AA owning 90% of the market wouldn't be a monopoly in my opinion because that would make it a public good.

Rent seeking does not equal 'lobbying' either.

Hell, I'd argue lobbying FOR grants to go to for profit charter schools looks a lot more like rent seeking than what you are suggesting.
Are you or your wife a public school teacher?


No... Not even close.

Diggity already said it... Maybe you can call it anti-competitive but public schools aren't seeking economic GAIN in their pursuit against vouchers.
AgBank
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Quote:

public schools aren't seeking economic GAIN in their pursuit against vouchers
Public schools are already getting government money, all they have to do is maintain their economic rents. Wealth or happiness isn't a requirement of rent seeking. Some public school organizations are using lobbying efforts maintain existing economic gains.

Hours worked for teachers is an example of "economic gain". My wife is a teacher, she won't work at a charter school because they have a reputation for working their teachers more hours. I don't blame teachers' unions for their concerns.

Here is another example: most employment license requirements are another form of rent seeking. Taxi medallions prevent competition. Some drug companies are accused of using loopholes in our patent system to seek economic rents. Let me know if you need more examples.

I would argue that immigration policy can be influenced by rent seekers who don't want to compete with new labor.
moses1084ever
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Regarding occupational licensing, I've seen both sides of the spectrum.

In a previous life before moving to Singapore, I was a state of Texas licensed HVAC contractor. I gave up my license after getting tired of paying for insurance while living overseas. The requirements to get a license in Texas at the time were 5 years of experience required before you can become eligible for a license, insurance requirements, continuing education....

Now flip that.. In Singapore there are zero barriers to entry so literally anyone can walk in off the street and start working on your air conditioner. As expected, prices are very Low but it's very challenging to find good techs. There's an annoying (and sometimes expensive) trial and error process to finding qualified people.
Post removed:
by user
Refresh
Page 1 of 1
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.