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To Roth or Not to Roth

4,091 Views | 37 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by Pendragon12
GarlandAg2012
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AG
I have a Roth IRA and my employer allows a Roth 401k. I have elected to do both. Last year for the first time I had to backdoor into my Roth IRA due to income. Same boat this year. Fiancee has a Roth IRA as well and TRS (elementary school teacher). I think next year when we file jointly it will

Should I keep doing Roth? Don't expect to be bumped into the 33% bracket any time soon. Paying the taxes now isn't that big of a deal but being able to deduct another 5500 off both of our incomes would be nice.
10andBOUNCE
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I believe the tax free growth of a Roth outweighs any tax deductions by quite a bit.
Cyp0111
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Agree w below. I outgrew ROTH a few years ago. I wish like heck I could still do it. The best retirement vehicle out there.
sawemoffshort07
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AG
Back door?
26.2
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https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Backdoor_Roth_IRA
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GregorCleganeZombie
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How do you guys get around previous job hops?

For example, if I leave my current employer, who has a terrible 401k plan, and roll that into an IRA as I understand it I'm subject to more of a penalty when trying to backdoor. If I don't take another job for two years (grad school) I don't have another company 401k to roll it into.

I suppose you could go back to traditional IRA for two years combined with your previous companies rollover IRA and then when you start a new job try to send that traditional IRA to the new company 401k and then you're back open for some backdoor roth ira business?
libertyag
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GarlandAg2012 said:

I have a Roth IRA and my employer allows a Roth 401k. I have elected to do both. Last year for the first time I had to backdoor into my Roth IRA due to income. Same boat this year. Fiancee has a Roth IRA as well and TRS (elementary school teacher). I think next year when we file jointly it will

Should I keep doing Roth? Don't expect to be bumped into the 33% bracket any time soon. Paying the taxes now isn't that big of a deal but being able to deduct another 5500 off both of our incomes would be nice.
The tax deduction now is a certainty and it is what it is. With the Roth you have to hope the government doesn't either renege on their promise or that we do not have a change in our system of taxation (e.g. some sort of consumption tax).
investorAg83
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GregorCleganeZombie said:

How do you guys get around previous job hops?

For example, if I leave my current employer, who has a terrible 401k plan, and roll that into an IRA as I understand it I'm subject to more of a penalty when trying to backdoor. If I don't take another job for two years (grad school) I don't have another company 401k to roll it into.

I suppose you could go back to traditional IRA for two years combined with your previous companies rollover IRA and then when you start a new job try to send that traditional IRA to the new company 401k and then you're back open for some backdoor roth ira business?
If you have IRA assets anywhere, you're taxed on the weighted portion of the conversion (deductible contributions vs non-deductible). You're not penalized for the conversion (backdoor). This is something most people miss and then they're surprised when they find out years later that they owe taxes on the conversions.

If you have multiple old 401k's, the only way to do the backdoor and keep from converting pre-tax, previously contributed dollars, roll the ira's or old 401k's into the new 401k plan or just leave it in the plan all-together. Plan assets are not the same as IRA assets for purposes of conversion.
ChoppinDs40
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hijacking for a minute. I am also bumping up against the Roth IRA phase out # and would like to continue contributing this way.

Let's say I'm going to start the backdoor strategy in 2017. Right now I contribute the max but on a monthly basis (~$460/month). Would I simply start contributing that amount into a traditional IRA and then convert it before YE? I guess with a year's worth of growth, I could get taxed on that amount. Or would the better option to be simple save ~$460 a month into a savings account, contribute it all to an traditional IRA on December 15th or whatever, and then immediately convert?

Subsequently, would I just rinse and repeat this every year? i.e., open open a new traditional IRA in 2018, convert again in 2018. By the time i retire, i have like 40 Roth IRA amounts where $5500 was contributed?
AggieT
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Do it in a lump sum and convert immediately to avoid any taxable gains.
ChoppinDs40
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do i roll these into my existing Roth IRA, or do I have to make new ones?
AggieT
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Existing.
ChoppinDs40
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sounds pretty easy then, just keep contributing that money into a savings account, then fund it all at once, then convert into my existing Roth.
oldarmy1
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ROTH. Always sacrifice the small tax consequence with an eye toward avoiding the large one. ALWAYS
DonaldFDraper
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Devil's advocate post...

http://www.madfientist.com/traditional-ira-vs-roth-ira/

Personally, I am planning to switch to Traditional contributions due to changing my filling status to married-joint and increased income / taxes.

I have been contributing all Roth for the last 7 years so I'll be diversified against tax / policy changes. If something changes, I can switch back to contributing Roth and/or convert Traditional funds into Roth.
GarlandAg2012
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Yep. What I do is fund the traditional IRA, roll it into my Roth when the traditional is funded, and put it in a money market in the Roth. Then set up automatic purchases weekly in the Roth of whatever you want to buy in the amount of 5500/52. Now you have a backdoor Roth with dollar cost averaging. The only problem with this method is when you switch from regularly contributing to it to this method, unless you can fund this year and next year, you'll sort of always be behind on when you have the money and when it's actually invested.
ORAggieFan
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oldarmy1 said:

ROTH. Always sacrifice the small tax consequence with an eye toward avoiding the large one. ALWAYS

This is just bad advise. When it comes to finances there are not absolutes.

I stopped Roth years back. Income is 2-3x what I'd need to retire comfortably. Obviously we don't know future taxes, but I plan to be in a much lower bracket upon retirement then now.
DonaldFDraper
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Similar boat.
GarlandAg2012
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How do you estimate what you'll need in retirement? I am only 26 and don't even know how many kids I'll have etc.
DonaldFDraper
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The common calculation is that you need some multiplier of your yearly salary to retire. Say 15x. While that number would likely end up being a solid retirement number, it's a clunky way to look at it from my perspective.

A more accurate way is to project your yearly expenses when in retirement, then multiply my 25x. Based on historical market performance and using a Safe Withdrawal rate of 4%, you should theoretically never run out of money.

Keep in mind, we are talking about purely expenses. I personally track current expenses in two categories - mandatory (property taxes, electricity, groceries, gas, etc) and discretionary (travel, entertainment, shopping, etc).

While this seems like a lot, there are some passive impacts. Once in retirement, you will no longer need to save towards retirement and your income taxes are likely to be much lower than working years.

Now if you are like me, that's a little to simple and I can think of several variables that would decrease my confidence level in that calculation i.e. Illness, major market changes, etc. That is where passive investments like real estate, businesses, etc can help smooth out the risk.

While younger myself, my plan is to work and save like hell (and enjoy life) to get to a ballpark number that I feel comfortable all expenses will be covered then supplement with several rental properties for cash flow purposes. Once I reach that number, I'll decide if I want to keep working or maybe move to part time or take a flyer on a high risk/high reward job (100% commission sales, etc). It won't matter too much because I know all expenses are covered. Anything else is fun money.

Apologies for any typos, I wrote this from my phone. I'll share some articles when back on a computer.
ORAggieFan
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GarlandAg2012 said:

How do you estimate what you'll need in retirement? I am only 26 and don't even know how many kids I'll have etc.

At that age save the max you can and maybe a little more. Worry about the number in 10-15 years or more. Your salary and lifestyle will change a ton. Age of kids also can affect this greatly as well as plans for college expenses for them.
HoustonAg2014
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When you guys invest in a 401k and IRAs do you normally invest in funds or stocks or both? I am 25 and have been working since graduation (22). My plan has been to max out my traditional 401k then max out my roth before I start putting money into savings. I have a pretty high risk tolerance being that I am 25 so I figure answers will differ based on age but maybe some of the older folks have some advice due to how long they have been doing this.

My normal strategy is to front load my 401k using 75% of my first 2 months pay and live off of savings then reduce the % down to company matching to discipline myself. I know once that money goes in it is not coming out which is why I do that. Then I take my bonus and put that into the Roth IRA immediately. I am able to live comfortably and still have a lot of fun but I am wondering if I should be putting less in to save more for buying a house in the next 5 years.

Also our company allows for Roth 401ks but I contribute to the traditional for now because I know I would not be able to max out a roth 401k at my salary. If the tax rate drops under Trump should I consider switching for a little bit to get some after tax money into the 401k? I expect my tax rate to be lower in retirement as well even though that is 35+ years away. I take my retirement accounts more serious than my trading accounts because I feel keeping watch over these accounts especially when young can set you up in a huge way if you do it correctly.
ChoppinDs40
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I would max Roth, max employer match (depending on what it is, let's say 5%) and then look at what else you have left. Save a reasonable amount for other things and then circle back.

Not for everyone, but I'm a serial "budget" saver. I have about 10 savings accounts at Ally, all for different things. I.e., rental property savings account (put $500 a month into that), travel savings ($300 a month into that), etc.

I think it really depends on what your short, near, long-term financials goals are. My Roth is through Vanguard and I invest it mostly into my target retirement fund. It forces me to set it and forget it. 401k has a few other options.

I use my E-trade for buying individual stocks. As it's way more risky, I would rather separate the two and keep those investing "budgets" segregated.
DonaldFDraper
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First things first, great job on maxing out a 401k and IRA at 25. Definitely ahead of the game.

If I am assuming correctly (and I may not be), it sounds like you likely do not have much in the way of tax deductions like owning a home. Without knowing your income, it is difficult to suggest Roth vs Traditional.

I would lean towards telling you to contribute however enables you to do the full $18,000 in your 401k and $5,500 to an IRA. If that is Traditional 401k and Roth IRA, great.

With your young age and potential of tax changes, it is probably a good idea to hedge by contributing to both. Plus a Roth IRA has some additional benefits for home purchases, etc. if ever needed.
HoustonAg2014
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Thank you very much for the advice! I figured having a hand in both would probably be best. I wouldn't be able to max out a Roth 401k and IRA unless the rest of my paycheck went to expenses with not really any side savings. I'll continue to monitor any tax changes and how much impact it will have if at all. If my salary increases soon and the tax benefits me I may diversify my 401k between traditional and Roth.
cheeky
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AggieT said:

Do it in a lump sum and convert immediately to avoid any taxable gains.


That may not be the best advice. While there is not yet a congressional (or tax court) levied timeline between the two transactions, some have argued that what you're suggesting directly conflicts with the step transaction doctrine. I don't know if you give advice professionally, but one who does surely would not want to run the risk of having a significant client audited, nah sued in tax court, for such a seemingly innocuous comment.
AggieT
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Not an advisor, just relaying what I've done for years.

Is there a time period before the conversion that would avoid any possible conflicts with the step transaction doctrine?
cheeky
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90 days generally has been suggested as an appropriate incubation period
GarlandAg2012
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Good to know.

Now the question is should I give up 90 days of potential growth to simplify my taxes by leaving it in a money market, or invest it right away and deal with the taxes on the gains, if any.
oldarmy1
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ORAggieFan said:

oldarmy1 said:

ROTH. Always sacrifice the small tax consequence with an eye toward avoiding the large one. ALWAYS

This is just bad advise. When it comes to finances there are not absolutes.

I stopped Roth years back. Income is 2-3x what I'd need to retire comfortably. Obviously we don't know future taxes, but I plan to be in a much lower bracket upon retirement then now.


Returned from travels and all I have to say is "wut???"
jakester03
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I've been doing Roth 401k but realized my taxable income is into the 25% tax bracket by about 14k so this year I am switching to traditional 401k and contributing just enough to get into the 15% bracket. Also maxing out our Roth IRAs. Not sure if it's the best strategy but it made sense to me.
10andBOUNCE
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Confused how tax free growth with a Roth is not the best option in just about any circumstance? Seems as close to absolute as you can get IMO.
GarlandAg2012
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One scenario in which a traditional may make more sense is if you can only afford to max the IRA if you have the tax savings.

If you're going to max it regardless, then probably Roth is the best way. But if the tax savings are the difference between you contributing $4,125 vs $5,500 (this would be for someone in the 25% bracket, the tax savings from reducing your taxable income by $5,500 would be $1,375) then it could make more sense to go traditional.

Another way to think about it is if you would max it either way, but invest the tax savings if you go traditional, it could be a closer situation depending on your tax bracket now and in retirement.
jakester03
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I could be completely wrong on this, but if you plan on being in a higher tax bracket at retirement then a ROTH makes more sense whereas if you plan on being in a lower tax bracket at retirement then traditional is the better choice.

At least from my very basic understanding of it.
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