Almost Crashed Plane

9,177 Views | 112 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by Line up and wait 18L
WC94
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AG
How do I find out what happened on this flight? We had to abort the landing twice about 100 ft off the deck and on the 3rd approach the fire engines were waiting for us. We landed pretty hard and were all over the runway.

Pilot never explained what happened, he didn't even open the pilot door as we exited. Is there a log that records pilot or mechanical error somewhere?


Thu, Mar 15
Interjet 2704
Acapulco (ACA)
2:10pm

Mexico City (MEX)
3:20pm
1h 10m duration
Jock 07
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Probably just a drunk pilot.
CS78
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WC94 said:

Mexico


There's your problem right there, see.
ColoradoMooseHerd
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It was the Spanish Fly
akaggie05
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AG
The multiple go-arounds may have been caused by things outside of the pilot's control... high crosswinds, traffic on the runway that didn't clear in time, etc. ATC can and frequently does issue a "go-around" instruction at the drop of a hat. All aircraft are required to maintain a 30 minute fuel reserve for diversions, go-arounds, etc. The multiple go-arounds you experienced likely caused the fuel reserve to drop below the 30 minute threshold, which necessitates that the pilots declare a "fuel emergency." A fuel emergency automatically triggers airport emergency team response, which would explain all the vehicles you saw.

If you care to mess with time zone conversions, you can likely download an ATC audio clip that documents all of the interactions between the aircraft and controllers (including the reason for the go-arounds):

https://www.liveatc.net/archive.php?m=mmmx1
Matsui
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Check flight aware for your path but the link to the audio is the best bet

Keep us posted on what you found out
The Kraken
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Were you flying on an Airbus or one of Interjet's Russian built Sukhoi Superjets?
evan_aggie
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I would recommend everyone take major airlines whenever possible. More affordable airlines with little to no name recognition usually use planes that have a much older average age. Many times they purchase aircraft second hand from tier 1 airlines to establish their fleet.

You have big airlines unloading 15-20 year old planes that are either less fuel efficient or simply too costly to maintain. Much like a vehicle over 120,000 Miles: something is eventually going to break even if the driver is excellent.

That being said: budget or smaller airlines aren't employing top dollar mechanics or pilots. They are using older aircraft and saving costs in everyway they can. I refuse to fly Allegiant from Austin to Vegas even though they are incredibly cheap.
akaggie05
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AG
Not bad advice, but there's nothing inherently unsafe about older aircraft. Most low-cost carriers outsource their maintenance to third-party facilities, which operate under the same FAA or EASA regulations that in-house shops abide by. These are often the same facilities that larger carriers end up using for surge support when necessary. The pilot experience thing is a valid concern with LCCs, although you will typically find your youngest / least experienced pilots at the regional affiliates of major carriers.

Speaking as someone who is deeply involved with aircraft design / modification work, there are two easy things I recommend to everyone which significantly increases the margin of safety when flying on commercial carriers:

1. Fly on airlines from English-speaking countries when possible. English is the universal language used by ATC worldwide. There are numerous documented instances of accidents being caused by pilots and controllers being unable to clearly understand each other due to language barriers... pilots thinking they were cleared for takeoff and weren't, controllers not understanding a critical request that pilots were making, etc.

2. Do not sit in line with roughly the front half of a turbofan (jet) engine, or in line with the propellers on a turboprop aircraft. Uncontained fan disk, turbine blade, or prop blade failure happens occasionally, and can easily send metal shrapnel into the fuselage. Aircraft with tail-mounted engines are of particular concern here, due to the proximity of the engines to the cabin. The last couple of rows on the MD-80 should be avoided at all costs IMO.
evan_aggie
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I'm not trying to be a contrarian, but there have been VERY few fatalities or injuries due to contained engine failures that have harmed people within the cabin.

Structural failure due to cracks or compartment doors have probably caused more "proximity" fatalities than being located near an engine. Moreover, statistically they've come out and shown where you have a marginally higher chance of surviving an incident not being located above/aside to the center and wing tanks.

There is nothing "inherently" wrong with flying an older plane, but the truth is that carriers buying used aircraft that have been in service for 15-20 years typically do not receive the same quality of eye-balls from maintenance. Your point and comment reiterates this: they outsource to whoever they can, probably based on a decent price (ie, low bid), and continuity of A&P mechanics is probably less.

whasty
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"The last couple of rows on the MD-80 should be avoided at all costs IMO."

All rows on the MD-80 should be avoided at all costs.
WC94
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akaggie05,

Thanks for the info, I might have found the recording. Hopefully my buddy wil interpret and I can get to the bottom of this. I will be taking the United flight through Houston going forward.
CanyonAg77
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Quote:

Uncontained fan disk, turbine blade, or prop blade failure happens occasionally, and can easily send metal shrapnel into the fuselage. Aircraft with tail-mounted engines are of particular concern here, due to the proximity of the engines to the cabin. The last couple of rows on the MD-80 should be avoided at all costs IMO.
So...I've scanned some NTSB reports, as well as my memory. I don't recall any such passenger injuries. Even on the DC-10 crash where the Aggie pilot miraculously landed, and saved lots of people, the fan disk explosion did not penetrate the cabin and cause injuries, to my knowledge.
aggie_wes
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AG
I'm flying on an MD80 to Pittsburgh on Monday. I thought AA had taken them all out of service but I guess not.
fire09
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Happy to help answer your question. Anytime a part 141 flight declares an emergency, they roll the trucks. There are tons of reasons a pilot may declare an emergency. My guess without listening to any atc audio is with two go arounds he was approaching minimum fuel and declared to get priority landing.
fire09
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And to those saying don't sit parallel with the fans go look at the last ntsb report where a prop or fan blade injured a passenger. You are more likely to get struck by lighting 5 times in a row.
akaggie05
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AG
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_Flight_1288

Not saying it's a common occurrence, but given a choice, I'd rather not sit in line with an assembly rotating at 10,000+ RPM.
malenurse
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AG
Based on your description of the third landing, I would guess the pilot was fighting some pretty strong crosswinds. This could possibly explain the previous two go-arounds.
The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But, it's still on the list.
fire09
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Ironically, the number one cause of aviation fatalities, fuel starvation. So it's the lack of spinning you should really be worried about
bthotugigem05
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evan_aggie said:

I would recommend everyone take major airlines whenever possible. More affordable airlines with little to no name recognition usually use planes that have a much older average age. Many times they purchase aircraft second hand from tier 1 airlines to establish their fleet.

You have big airlines unloading 15-20 year old planes that are either less fuel efficient or simply too costly to maintain. Much like a vehicle over 120,000 Miles: something is eventually going to break even if the driver is excellent.

That being said: budget or smaller airlines aren't employing top dollar mechanics or pilots. They are using older aircraft and saving costs in everyway they can. I refuse to fly Allegiant from Austin to Vegas even though they are incredibly cheap.


Didn't Delta recently delay a bunch of orders because they were buying used planes on the secondhand market for much cheaper?
evan_aggie
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They may have. I know they were fighting with Boeing over the Cs100 deal they wanted at $19m a plane. Boeing suggested using Embraer 190s refurbed. SWA recently purchased a bunch of West Jet 737-700s I think to provide a stop gap until more Max7/Max8s are ready. I think the West Jets were already 8-10 years old.

Delta has a rep for being very shrewd and cautious when making big airframe purchases.
akaggie05
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fire09 said:

Ironically, the number one cause of aviation fatalities, fuel starvation. So it's the lack of spinning you should really be worried about


Fair enough, but that situation is completely out of my control, regardless of seat location.
nosoupforyou
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AG
following - what did the flight recorders say???
CanyonAg77
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nosoupforyou said:

following - what did the flight recorders say???
No flight recorder info from "almost crashed". Has to be "crashed".
aggie_wes
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AG
And wouldn't you know this old piece of **** had a mechanical issue and we sat on the tarmac for 2hrs.
AgCPA95
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evan_aggie said:


Delta has a rep for being very shrewd and cautious when making big airframe purchases.
Delta may have learned that from the Northwest folks in the Delta/NWA merger. NWA kept those old DC-9's flying FOREVER investing a ton refurbishing them and installing engine hush kits on the old jets in the late 90's. A lot of those planes were over 30 years old and fully paid for so some extended maintenance wasn't a big deal.
evan_aggie
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I think the business model has all changed now, but I'm not an expert.

Paying for planes and maintaining older aircraft can be very costly. You see a lot more of these lease deals going on. They are fighting and clawing over 5-10% differences in passenger per mile cost. The MD80/82/83/88/90 engine retrofit made a lot more sense then.

However, the level of competition is so fierce for lighter equipment, more internal space (I recently read all about flat aft bulk-head), etc, that just adding winglets and a new engine is sometimes more costly in the long run.

Matsui
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Leasing is a more common way of life. They are figuring out they aren't in the service of planes and plane inventory business they are in the business of flying and leasing out those other services is cheaper and better for the bottom line.
bthotugigem05
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AG
American is leading the way there with their outsourced heavy 777 maintenance to a company in Hong Kong.
Alan Pavio
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When will the MD80's finally be retired? I hate when I see that is the equipment for one of my flights. American even flies them between Toronto and DFW, which was surprising to me.
evan_aggie
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AG
2019 for AA.
bthotugigem05
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I'm going to miss the mad dogs. Only reason they were around this long is oil bottomed out but with it gradually rising again they'll be gone soon.
Joe Schillaci 48
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AgCPA95 said:

evan_aggie said:

NWA kept those old DC-9's flying FOREVER investing a ton refurbishing them and installing engine hush kits on the old jets in the late 90's. A lot of those planes were over 30 years old and fully paid for so some extended maintenance wasn't a big deal.

Years ago a fellow employee worked out of Memphis, a NWA hub. Memphis was a DC-9 standard, He jokingly said he finally decided to look at the ID Plate located at the door of the aircraft.

If the DC-9 was older than him he would not board.

NWA got all the mileage they could out of those DC-9's.
CanyonAg77
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Good thing he wasn't in the Air Force. Those planes are ooooolllllddddd. For instance, daughter did her T38 solo in one built when I was 11 years old. (1966)
BQ78
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The first B-52 I flew on was delivered to the Air Force on my first birthday, and that was 40 years ago.
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