Agree, add Sosa. Eventually add Rolen and Manny.mathguy86 said:
Jeter
Bonds
Clemens
Shilling
Its time for the steroid stigma to lift. With this ballot and how thin it is this is Bonds and Clemens best chance they will ever get.
Helton and Walker were very much products of their home field. Nope for me.
Kent is the Hall of Very Good.
I'm torn on Wagner.
I don't follow. There are several closers in the HOF.94chem said:
If you think the #3 closer of all-time should get in, then Wagner and/or Joe Nathan should get in. If you think it should be limited to Hoffman and Rivera, then Wagner would be a NO.
Among current closers likely to enter this conversation in the next 10 years, we have Chapman and Kimbrel.
The next quandary for the voters will be what to do with outstanding middle relievers. This is really only a position that began <25 years ago, starting when Rivera was the 8th inning guy in NY. Now with guys like Chapman, Britton, and Andrew Miller dominating in the 7th and 8th inning, the Hold may become the Holy Grail. I'm sure Bill James will help us sort all of this out.
I'm only considering modern closers. Guys like Eck, Sutter, Lee, Gossage were all relief pitchers who also closed. Eck was a pure closer, but he also had great numbers as a starter.South Platte said:I don't follow. There are several closers in the HOF.94chem said:
If you think the #3 closer of all-time should get in, then Wagner and/or Joe Nathan should get in. If you think it should be limited to Hoffman and Rivera, then Wagner would be a NO.
Among current closers likely to enter this conversation in the next 10 years, we have Chapman and Kimbrel.
The next quandary for the voters will be what to do with outstanding middle relievers. This is really only a position that began <25 years ago, starting when Rivera was the 8th inning guy in NY. Now with guys like Chapman, Britton, and Andrew Miller dominating in the 7th and 8th inning, the Hold may become the Holy Grail. I'm sure Bill James will help us sort all of this out.
Quote:
Helton and Walker were very much products of their home field. Nope for me.
Walker spent 8 seasons outside of Colorado early and late and his career. Even outside of Corrs he had an .880 OPS.diehard03 said:Quote:
Helton and Walker were very much products of their home field. Nope for me.
So, you're basically saying that no Rockies should ever get in the Hall.
I think all Rockies players should be looked at very carefully and their numbers carefully considered given the altitude and sheer size of that park. Here is Larry Walker:diehard03 said:Quote:
Helton and Walker were very much products of their home field. Nope for me.
So, you're basically saying that no Rockies should ever get in the Hall.
They've let Biggio and Baines in. The floodgates are open. Helton, Walker, and Matt Holliday should get serious consideration as well.mathguy86 said:I think all Rockies players should be looked at very carefully and their numbers carefully considered given the altitude and sheer size of that park. Here is Larry Walker:diehard03 said:Quote:
Helton and Walker were very much products of their home field. Nope for me.
So, you're basically saying that no Rockies should ever get in the Hall.
Career: WAR 72.2, 383 HR, slash lines of .313/.400/.565 OPS .965, 141 OPS+ Those are fantastic numbers. HoF numbers. But wait...
Home and Away splits:
(H) 215 HR, .348/.431/.673, OPS 1.068
(A) 186 HR, .278/.370/.495, OPS .865
He's getting a big home boost. Sure many players have a better home split than away, but this is big. And its worse than this because here are his two big home parks: Coors and the Expos park.
Coors: 600 games, .381/.462/.710 OPS 1.172
Expos: 350 games .293/.373/.578 OPS .890
His Expos numbers look like his overall away numbers as a more normal home/away split. His Coors Field splits are crazy numbers. I mean they are 30-40% better. He was a product of playing at altitude and I a huge field.
Larry Walker is a product of Coors Field. He was a very good player, but for me he's not a HoF player.
And Todd Helton? Its the same. His home/away splits are huge and he's only played at Coors so its even easier to see. Good player, not a HoF player
Quote:
I think all Rockies players should be looked at very carefully and their numbers carefully considered given the altitude and sheer size of that park. Here is Larry Walker:
Career: WAR 72.2, 383 HR, slash lines of .313/.400/.565 OPS .965, 141 OPS+ Those are fantastic numbers. HoF numbers. But wait...
Home and Away splits:
(H) 215 HR, .348/.431/.673, OPS 1.068
(A) 186 HR, .278/.370/.495, OPS .865
He's getting a big home boost. Sure many players have a better home split than away, but this is big. And its worse than this because here are his two big home parks: Coors and the Expos park.
Coors: 600 games, .381/.462/.710 OPS 1.172
Expos: 350 games .293/.373/.578 OPS .890
His Expos numbers look like his overall away numbers as a more normal home/away split. His Coors Field splits are crazy numbers. I mean they are 30-40% better. He was a product of playing at altitude and I a huge field.
Larry Walker is a product of Coors Field. He was a very good player, but for me he's not a HoF player.
And Todd Helton? Its the same. His home/away splits are huge and he's only played at Coors so its even easier to see. Good player, not a HoF player
Obvious troll?South Platte said:They've let Biggio and Baines in. The floodgates are open. Helton, Walker, and Matt Holliday should get serious consideration as well.mathguy86 said:I think all Rockies players should be looked at very carefully and their numbers carefully considered given the altitude and sheer size of that park. Here is Larry Walker:diehard03 said:Quote:
Helton and Walker were very much products of their home field. Nope for me.
So, you're basically saying that no Rockies should ever get in the Hall.
Career: WAR 72.2, 383 HR, slash lines of .313/.400/.565 OPS .965, 141 OPS+ Those are fantastic numbers. HoF numbers. But wait...
Home and Away splits:
(H) 215 HR, .348/.431/.673, OPS 1.068
(A) 186 HR, .278/.370/.495, OPS .865
He's getting a big home boost. Sure many players have a better home split than away, but this is big. And its worse than this because here are his two big home parks: Coors and the Expos park.
Coors: 600 games, .381/.462/.710 OPS 1.172
Expos: 350 games .293/.373/.578 OPS .890
His Expos numbers look like his overall away numbers as a more normal home/away split. His Coors Field splits are crazy numbers. I mean they are 30-40% better. He was a product of playing at altitude and I a huge field.
Larry Walker is a product of Coors Field. He was a very good player, but for me he's not a HoF player.
And Todd Helton? Its the same. His home/away splits are huge and he's only played at Coors so its even easier to see. Good player, not a HoF player
We don't even need that. Clemens and Bonds should be in. So should most of the juicers. It's a joke some of these guys aren't in. And I didn't even like most of them.the last of the bohemians said:
Can their be two entries for Bonds and Clemens, pre juice and post juice.....because I'm pretty sure the pre juiced Bonds and Clemens are HoF
Yep. He was an incredible hitter. Best plate awareness of anyone in baseball for 5-10 years. I don't think juicing helps with that.Schall 02 said:
No love for Manny Ramirez? He had a career OPS of .996. Clear HOFer.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ramirma02.shtml
Junkhead said:
If you're including the juicers then Sammy Sosa has to be in.