Texaggie7nine said:

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That is exactly why I said "for sure".

It's only smart to study pitchers and see how they pitch in certain situations and with certain types of batters ect. It makes complete sense to do what you can with public knowledge to try to determine the odds of what will be thrown.

What shouldn't be part of the game is getting clued in to know exactly what is coming based off of stealing information from a hand signal meant only for communication for the pitcher.

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Nothing is ever "for sure.". How do you, as the batter, know they haven't changed the signals?

By the way, learning when a pitcher is tipping, the batter knows "for sure" what pitch is coming. Should knowing when a pitcher is tipping not be allowed?

That has literally always been part of the game.

Quote:

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The bold part is a terrible take, and we shouldn't let it pass.

In football, the defense studies plays and tendencies in order to know exactly what the offense is running. That is exactly the whole point of them watching film. Offense does so vice versa. The defense also keys into snap count - it's why QBs invented the hard count.

In basketball, you do watch film for similar reasons. You learn how to recognize sets so you can have an advantage in defending them.

Why is a batter knowing a pitchers tendencies or figuring out a teams sings any different than that football and basketball do?

If I go along your premise, batters should never watch film of pitchers to find their tells. They should never chart pitches to find their tendencies. They should just stroll up to the plate, try determine the spin of the ball, where it will end up, and decide to swing or not in less than a second. If you can't do that, you're not a good ball player.

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Good gracious.

The sentence you bolded said "knowing for sure" and was made within the context of this thread and the larger discussion regarding sign stealing.

It is not a commentary on whether baseball players should or should not be able to watch film after the fact and/or study tendencies.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Beat40 said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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It is part of baseball, but trying to go out of your way to figure out the code your opponent is using so you can steal their plays shouldn't be.

Sports is a big business with billions of dollars at stake. MIT grads and very smart people are going to pour over each and every possible way to exploit the other team's ability to communicate with each other without giving away clues as to what they are saying. It makes since that since technology is making it easier to exploit the system, why not use technology to level the field and make baseball about baseball and not information stealing.

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Someone will always figure out a way to steal signs. Both offense and defense should be able to do it.

Hell, if anything, the tech that is currently is out there is making it even harder on the batter. Being able to know a hitters tendencies in order to shift and take away more hits - should the defense be allowed to shift?

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Make the balls go further. Make the strike zone smaller.

There are many things they could reasonably do to help take away the batter's disadvantage. But to simply just allow them to underhandedly try to figure out secret signals so they can know what is coming is no way to address the issue.

Sports should be about athleticism combined with decision making combined with teamwork. It should not be about who comes up with the best way to steal confidential information from the other team.

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So sports shouldn't include memory and brains?

Beat40 said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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That is exactly why I said "for sure".

It's only smart to study pitchers and see how they pitch in certain situations and with certain types of batters ect. It makes complete sense to do what you can with public knowledge to try to determine the odds of what will be thrown.

What shouldn't be part of the game is getting clued in to know exactly what is coming based off of stealing information from a hand signal meant only for communication for the pitcher.

---

Nothing is ever "for sure.". How do you, as the batter, know they haven't changed the signals?

By the way, learning when a pitcher is tipping, the batter knows "for sure" what pitch is coming. Should knowing when a pitcher is tipping not be allowed?

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You're being as dense as a black hole right now...

Quote:

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So sports shouldn't include memory and brains?

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Holy non sequitur, batman...

There is a difference in figuring out coincidences in behavior of tells and figuring out what one teammate is telling the other that should be considered confidential.

This type of argument would be like advocating for golfers to be able to yell and try to be a distraction when other golfers in their group are hitting by saying "well if they are good golfers they should be able to play good no matter what other people are doing."

TexasRebel said:

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That has literally always been part of the game.

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So has no replay reviews. But technology changes things.

TXAggie2011 said:

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Quote:

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The bold part is a terrible take, and we shouldn't let it pass.

In football, the defense studies plays and tendencies in order to know exactly what the offense is running. That is exactly the whole point of them watching film. Offense does so vice versa. The defense also keys into snap count - it's why QBs invented the hard count.

In basketball, you do watch film for similar reasons. You learn how to recognize sets so you can have an advantage in defending them.

Why is a batter knowing a pitchers tendencies or figuring out a teams sings any different than that football and basketball do?

If I go along your premise, batters should never watch film of pitchers to find their tells. They should never chart pitches to find their tendencies. They should just stroll up to the plate, try determine the spin of the ball, where it will end up, and decide to swing or not in less than a second. If you can't do that, you're not a good ball player.

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Good gracious.

The sentence you bolded said "knowing for sure" and was made within the context of this thread and the larger discussion regarding sign stealing.

It is not a commentary on whether baseball players should or should not be able to watch film and study tendencies.

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I may stretched my argument a bit. However, I will still say that if the pitcher and catcher are rotating or changing sings, the knowing "for sure" part becomes invalid.

TexasRebel said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Beat40 said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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It is part of baseball, but trying to go out of your way to figure out the code your opponent is using so you can steal their plays shouldn't be.

Sports is a big business with billions of dollars at stake. MIT grads and very smart people are going to pour over each and every possible way to exploit the other team's ability to communicate with each other without giving away clues as to what they are saying. It makes since that since technology is making it easier to exploit the system, why not use technology to level the field and make baseball about baseball and not information stealing.

---

Someone will always figure out a way to steal signs. Both offense and defense should be able to do it.

Hell, if anything, the tech that is currently is out there is making it even harder on the batter. Being able to know a hitters tendencies in order to shift and take away more hits - should the defense be allowed to shift?

---

Make the balls go further. Make the strike zone smaller.

There are many things they could reasonably do to help take away the batter's disadvantage. But to simply just allow them to underhandedly try to figure out secret signals so they can know what is coming is no way to address the issue.

Sports should be about athleticism combined with decision making combined with teamwork. It should not be about who comes up with the best way to steal confidential information from the other team.

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So sports shouldn't include memory and brains?

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I use my memory and brains for decision making. I would hope you did as well.

It's a simple fix that I'm in favor of. Put a small mic in the pitchers glove and a small speaker in the catchers mask.

Pitcher calls his own pitches, and the catcher shakes his head yes/no if he agrees/disagrees. The batter won't overhear the pitcher, just hold the glove in front of his mouth. This will also help speed up the game, which is much needed these days.

This works fine in the NFL, and I think we'd all get over the change very quickly once implemented in the MLB.

Yep. And if I see the catcher signal what I remember is a change up over the outside corner, I'm smart enough to tell the batter.

Does it really matter? Some Nancy's will still be complaining about a pitcher tipping his pitches

Telegraph a curve ball, then put a fastball under the chin of their best player. Problem solved.