So, I thought this would be a fun conversation. Who are the top 3 players at each position? Here's my list. I know some will be left off that shouldn't be. There were some that played too much at other positions, so I didn't consider those. I found starting pitching to be much harder, given the obscenely huge numbers put up due to how the game was played. How do you really evaluate 400+ or 500+ wins nowadays? I tried to stay away from a sheer numbers game w/ them.

1B
Gehrig
Foxx
Pujols

2B
Hornsby
Morgan
Alomar

SS
Wagner
Ripken
Ozzie

3B
Schmidt
Mathews
Brett - really wanted to go w/ Beltre here. A case can be made for several in this spot.

C
Pudge
Bench
Yogi

LF
Bonds
Ted Williams
Rickey Henderson

CF - this may have been the toughest group of all. Leaving a guy like Griffey off just seems wrong.
Mays
Cobb
Mantle

RF
Ruth
Aaron
Clemente

RHP
Walter Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Bob Gibson - really went back and forth w/ Gibson vs Maddux here

LHP
Koufax
Randy Johnson
Kershaw - I expect he'll retire as #1 lefty ever

CL
Rivera
Eckersley
Hoffman - really no reason for this choice, aside from sheer volume of saves. After Rivera, it's a jumbled mess and someone had to go in the last two spots.

Yea, I don't know how someone can even begin to compare Griffey to Cobb. I think you have to split it up, maybe with WWII?

No real arguments with a lot of your list other than RHP. Pedro had some nasty stuff, but I wouldn't have him over Maddux, much less Gibson, or even maybe Nolan Ryan.

The only thing Nolan Ryan has going for him in a conversation with Pedro Martinez is that Nolan continued until an advanced age to pitch well (not elite). Pedro even has a better strikeout rate than Nolan.

Bob Gibson is an interesting one. I'm old enough to remember him over in St Louis, most crafty pitcher I've ever seen. Like Pedro, his career wasn't as long as some other names but he was damn masterful.

I'd agree. It was really a 3-way battle between Gibson, Maddux and Clemens. Couldn't really go wrong with either of the 3, but I've always been fascinated by Gibson.

Ozzie has no business on here. It's A Rod and it isn't close.

Farmer1906 said:

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Ozzie has no business on here. It's A Rod and it isn't close.

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As I said in the OP, I didn't really consider a guy that played a large percentage of their games at another position. A-Rod played 1272 games at SS and 1194 at 3B. Yount and Banks missed out for the same reason. I was surprised at the number of legends at SS that played a significant time elsewhere.

_lefraud_ said:

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7 no hitters
12 one hitters
18 two hitters

Not to mention his 5,714 strikeouts will never be touched.

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Nolan could certainly dominate a single game better than anyone. Pedro dominated entire seasons. Not saying Nolan didn't have great seasons either, but Pedro was on a different level and during the steroid era. He even had a higher career WAR than Nolan despite playing 9 fewer seasons.

If it wasn't Gibson/Pedro, Nolan would still miss out on my list. I'd put Maddox and Clemens higher than Nolan as well.

Gibson pitched 255 complete games and 56 shutouts. I'm not sure how you mean he didn't have a long career. He also had 274 hits and 24 home runs.

It just seems odd to have most of the prolific HR leaders on your list, but not the most prolific strikeout artist.

If longevity isn't a huge factor, then Mike Trout belongs on the list, without question.

I often see Clemens rated higher than Ryan, what's the reasoning there, the CYA? I always thought of Clemens as a poor man's Ryan, who benefited from playing in Boston and NY.

I think Ryan played in the wrong era, I think had he played from the late 80s through the 2000s, he would have gotten more respect from guys and maybe added a couple of CYA. I think voters from the 70s and 80s just saw Ryan as a strikeout guy, that played in some small markets, and on some average to bad teams.

RetiredAg said:

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Farmer1906 said:

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Ozzie has no business on here. It's A Rod and it isn't close.

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As I said in the OP, I didn't really consider a guy that played a large percentage of their games at another position. A-Rod played 1272 games at SS and 1194 at 3B. Yount and Banks missed out for the same reason. I was surprised at the number of legends at SS that played a significant time elsewhere.

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Ozzie at SS vs A Rod at SS

Stat - Ozzie - A Rod
RBI - 799 - 985
Runs - 1250 - 1003
HR - 28 - 344
OPS - .667 - .963

If I could find WAR by position I would be it was similar. A Rod is an all time great at 2 positions.

I would nix Alomar for Cano, Sandberg, Robinson, or go waaaay back for Collins.

_lefraud_ said:

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I often see Clemens rated higher than Ryan, what's the reasoning there, the CYA? I always thought of Clemens as a poor man's Ryan, who benefited from playing in Boston and NY.

I think Ryan played in the wrong era, I think had he played from the late 80s through the 2000s, he would have gotten more respect from guys and maybe added a couple of CYA. I think voters from the 70s and 80s just saw Ryan as a strikeout guy, that played in some small markets, and on some average to bad teams.

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Disagree.

Roger
More AS
An MVP
Crushes Nolan in Cy Youngs
About 60 points higher in WAR. For reference, that's about what Ichiro's career WAR is.
Better ERA, WHIP, FIP, Win%, etc...

_lefraud_ said:

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If longevity isn't a huge factor, then Mike Trout belongs on the list, without question.

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Where? Does he go higher than Mays, Mantle, Cobb, Griffey? Maybe by the time he retires, but he's not even HOF eligible yet. He's not above any of those guys.

_lefraud_ said:

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It just seems odd to have most of the prolific HR leaders on your list, but not the most prolific strikeout artist.

If longevity isn't a huge factor, then Mike Trout belongs on the list, without question.

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Pedro was a very prolific strikeout artist...struck out more guys per inning than Nolan, as stated.

Longevity...it's a factor, it matters, but I view it is as a sliding scale. Mike Trout has played less than 6 seasons of games, that's just different when Pedro had around 14 seasons of games.

And if you look at how long they were elite, Pedro by many measures has more truly great seasons than Nolan despite the shorter total career.

The argument for Clemens is he has the elite seasons of a Pedro or Bob Gibson along with the longevity of a Nolan Ryan.

7 seasons across 3 different decades with the best WAR among pitchers.

jja79 said:

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Gibson pitched 255 complete games and 56 shutouts. I'm not sure how you mean he didn't have a long career. He also had 274 hits and 24 home runs.

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I don't mean he had a short career; but rather that his career wasn't as long as guys like Clemens or Ryan.

He certainly had a long enough career with enough accomplishments that I think he's clearly in the discussion for top 3 all-time.

Quote:

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I think Ryan played in the wrong era, I think had he played from the late 80s through the 2000s, he would have gotten more respect from guys and maybe added a couple of CYA. I think voters from the 70s and 80s just saw Ryan as a strikeout guy, that played in some small markets, and on some average to bad teams.

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Nolan had multiple teammates win an MVP or Cy Young at 3 of the 4 markets he played...Tom Seaver with the Mets, Don Baylor with the Angels, and Mike Scott with the Astros...

As I said, I didn't consider a guy if he basically spent half his career at a different position. Feel free to disagree with that. These are simply opinions.

Yeah, I know. I did.

Perhaps you need a utility position...

Pudge over Piazza?

Ozzie certainly was great, but overall any better than Jeter or Nomar?

I would put Clemens over Ryan for sure and in top 3.

I did consider a DH, but even as an AL guy, I hate the DH. Manager could be interesting.

By the way, what a damn loaded top 3 right field that is...

Ruth, Aaron, and Clemente.

Mel Ott is wondering "what the hell was I supposed to do?!"

Yeah, RF and CF are loaded. Insane. I couldn't imagine trying to do a "best at each position" list for those spots.

Also, DiMaggio over Griffey, probably Cobb and Mantle. Mays could go either way.

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Absolutely. Greatest defensive C ever, plus he was basically a career .300 hitter with 300+ HR. Piazza was entirely one dimensional. He is the greatest hitting catcher ever, no doubt. But overall, he's not top 3. The gap between Pudge/Bench/Berra and Piazza/Carter/Fisk is sizable.

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As far as looking at the more well-rounded guys, I'd disagree about Carter. He had excellent offensive numbers for the period he played and he's one of the all-time elite defenders at catcher, in my mind.

Good topic.

I would only attempt to make a top 3 list from post-WWII / post-integration to the present (minus known 'roiders). Just too difficult to compare the Ruth-Gehrig era players to the modern era.

1B (in no particular order):

Pujols -- played 1,733 career games at first base (so far)
Bagwell -- played 2,111 career games at first
McCovey -- played 2,045 career games at first

one tough thing about 1B...there were a lot of great first basemen that moved to the position halfway thru their careers as they got older. Guys like Tony Perez and Willie Stargell.

don't laugh...but a non-Hall of Famer...Steve Garvey isn't too far outside the top 5 with 2,059 games at first base, an NL MVP award, two NLCS MVP awards, 4 gold gloves, and 10 all-star appearances

2B

Morgan -- among his many amazing stats is drawing over 100 walks in 8 seasons...despite the pitchers knowing that Bench and Perez were up next. His career OBP is 121 points higher than his career BA.

Sandberg
Biggio

however in 2 or 3 years...Cano and/or Altuve will likely replace Biggio in the top 3 and maybe Sandberg too. He really benefited from Wrigley Field.

just for fun...Sandberg's career OPS at Wrigley was .854. His career OPS in the Astrodome was .700

one note...Jackie Robinson only played 55% of his career games at second base. But certainly belongs in the discussion as he won his MVP award at 2B

SS

Ripken
Jeter
Larkin

Robin Yount played 55% of his career games at SS. Moved to the outfield after 10 years. Similar situation with Ernie Banks (moved to first base)

3B

Schmidt
Mathews
Brett