Beltre all-time?

4,108 Views | 67 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by _lefraud_
PacifistAg
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With his reaching the 3,000 hit milestone, we should start hearing his name included more in the talk of greatest 3B of all-time. Where does Beltre rank all-time among 3B?

WAR
Schmidt - 106.5
Matthews - 96.4
Beltre - 92.4
Boggs - 91.1
Brett - 88.4

JAWS
Schmidt - 82.5
Matthews - 75.4
Boggs - 73.6
Beltre - 71.1
Brett - 70.8

dWAR
Robinson - 38.8
Beltre - 27.7
Schmidt - 17.6
Boggs - 12.9
Matthews - 5.5
Brett - 1.2
Jones - -1.6

Hits
Brett - 3154
Boggs - 3010
Beltre - 3000
Robinson - 2848
Chipper - 2726

Doubles
Brett - 665
Beltre - 605
Boggs - 578
Jones - 549
Rolen - 517

HR
Schmidt - 548
Matthews - 512
Jones - 468
Beltre - 454
Darrell Evans - 414

RBI
Jones - 1623
Beltre - 1607
Brett - 1596
Schmidt - 1595
Matthews - 1453

If 2018 is his final season, which that's certainly no guarantee with how well he's playing, he'll likely retire as #2 (WAR), #3 (JAWS), #2 (dWAR), #1 (Hits), #2 (Doubles), #3 (HR) and #1 (RBI). Plus, I saw this morning he's only the 4th player w/ 3,000 hits, 450 HR and 600 Doubles (Musial, Aaron, Yaz).

Where do you rank him all-time?
astros4545
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I'm just impressed how effective he still is at 38 years old


Really is amazing how good those PEDs are nowadays
mhayden
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Top 5 all-time 3B in my opinion -- but not much chance of really jumping Boggs/Brett unless he is a legit all-star for the next 3 seasons.
PacifistAg
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free_mhayden said:

Top 5 all-time 3B in my opinion -- but not much chance of really jumping Boggs/Brett unless he is a legit all-star for the next 3 seasons.
The lack of all-star games is probably the biggest disparity I'm seeing. Which is a shame, given how weird all-star appearances can be. His 2004 season is a great example. 48 HR, 121 RBI, .334/.388/.629., 9.5 WAR and 2nd in the MVP voting, but he wasn't an all-star that season.

I'd probably go;
Schmidt
Brett
Beltre
Boggs
Robinson/Chipper
DallasAg 94
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RetiredAg said:

With his reaching the 3,000 hit milestone, we should start hearing his name included more in the talk of greatest 3B of all-time. Where does Beltre rank all-time among 3B?

WAR
Schmidt - 106.5
Matthews - 96.4
Beltre - 92.4
Boggs - 91.1
Brett - 88.4

JAWS
Schmidt - 82.5
Matthews - 75.4
Boggs - 73.6
Beltre - 71.1
Brett - 70.8

dWAR
Robinson - 38.8
Beltre - 27.7
Schmidt - 17.6
Boggs - 12.9
Matthews - 5.5
Brett - 1.2
Jones - -1.6

Hits
Brett - 3154
Boggs - 3010
Beltre - 3000
Robinson - 2848
Chipper - 2726

Doubles
Brett - 665
Beltre - 605
Boggs - 578
Jones - 549
Rolen - 517

HR
Schmidt - 548
Matthews - 512
Jones - 468
Beltre - 454
Darrell Evans - 414

RBI
Jones - 1623
Beltre - 1607
Brett - 1596
Schmidt - 1595
Matthews - 1453

If 2018 is his final season, which that's certainly no guarantee with how well he's playing, he'll likely retire as #2 (WAR), #3 (JAWS), #2 (dWAR), #1 (Hits), #2 (Doubles), #3 (HR) and #1 (RBI). Plus, I saw this morning he's only the 4th player w/ 3,000 hits, 450 HR and 600 Doubles (Musial, Aaron, Yaz).

Where do you rank him all-time?
It is actually a much smaller list. He is Top3, no question.

Brett as:
3B: 1685 G, 2044 H, 198 HR, 1005 RBI
1B: 460 G, 529 H, 61 HRs, 2003 RBI, 303 RBI <- Typo fixed
DH: 504 G, 538 H, 51 HR, 257 RBI

Schmidt as:
3B: 2190 G, 2059 H, 509 HR, 1474 RBI - 174 SB, 377 Doubles
1B: 153 G, 158 H, 36 HR, 108 RBI

Chipper as:
3B: 1983 G, 2235 H, 389 HR, 1341 RBI - 128 SB - 455 Doubles
LF: 356
SS: 47

Boggs as:
3B: 2197 G, 2788 H, 106 HR, 925 RBI, 20 SB, 536 Doubles
DH: 107 G
1B: 65 G


Beltre as:
3B: 2639 G, 2887 H, 429 HR, 1543 RBI, 118 SB - 585 Doubles


That really only leaves Brooks Robinson and Mathews (spelled with 1 "t")
Robinson as:
3B: 2834 G, 2838 H, 266 HR, 1350 RBI, 28 SB, 482 Doubles

Mathews as:
3B: 2078 G, 2091 H, 461 HRs, 1290 RBI, 63 SB, 317 Doubles

Beltre is #1 in stats for games played at 3B for almost every category, except like 2 or 3. Of which, he will likely reach every category, but 1. Stolen Bases. Home Runs may be iffy. He may finish 2nd... but every other category he has done quite well.

I started to track this about 2 years ago. In Rangers' threads, I've had some running totals on where he ranks in each category. So, if you want to find it, search posts I've done in this forum, with like Mathews or Robinson
Farmer1906
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I'm not sure anyone cares about stats totals while playing a certain position and ignoring stats while not at that position.
Ag_07
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And I don't get the obsession with games played.

WGAS? And isn't it more impressive to put up similar numbers in less games?

With that said he's top 5. It'll be interesting to see what kind of love he gets after retirement and if he can avoid the small market treatment. Seems like he's a very quiet top 5 at his position.
DallasAg 94
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aggie1906 said:

I'm not sure anyone cares about stats totals while playing a certain position and ignoring stats while not at that position.
So, Brett was such a great 3B, that he spent 38% of his time playing 1B, DH, Other?!

You are right... it probably isn't relevant to the discussion of greatest 3B, that the guy actually play the position?!

Brett was so awesome at 3B, that they played him at DH and 1B, to showcase just how great he is at 3B.
DallasAg 94
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Ag_07 said:

And I don't get the obsession with games played.

WGAS? And isn't it more impressive to put up similar numbers in less games?

With that said he's top 5. It'll be interesting to see what kind of love he gets after retirement and if he can avoid the small market treatment. Seems like he's a very quiet top 5 at his position.
Then, why not include A-Rod?
3115 H, 696 HRs, 329 SB
TXAggie2011
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AG
Arent there two other threads to cover all of this?
KT 90
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DallasAg 94 said:

RetiredAg said:

With his reaching the 3,000 hit milestone, we should start hearing his name included more in the talk of greatest 3B of all-time. Where does Beltre rank all-time among 3B?

WAR
Schmidt - 106.5
Matthews - 96.4
Beltre - 92.4
Boggs - 91.1
Brett - 88.4

JAWS
Schmidt - 82.5
Matthews - 75.4
Boggs - 73.6
Beltre - 71.1
Brett - 70.8

dWAR
Robinson - 38.8
Beltre - 27.7
Schmidt - 17.6
Boggs - 12.9
Matthews - 5.5
Brett - 1.2
Jones - -1.6

Hits
Brett - 3154
Boggs - 3010
Beltre - 3000
Robinson - 2848
Chipper - 2726

Doubles
Brett - 665
Beltre - 605
Boggs - 578
Jones - 549
Rolen - 517

HR
Schmidt - 548
Matthews - 512
Jones - 468
Beltre - 454
Darrell Evans - 414

RBI
Jones - 1623
Beltre - 1607
Brett - 1596
Schmidt - 1595
Matthews - 1453

If 2018 is his final season, which that's certainly no guarantee with how well he's playing, he'll likely retire as #2 (WAR), #3 (JAWS), #2 (dWAR), #1 (Hits), #2 (Doubles), #3 (HR) and #1 (RBI). Plus, I saw this morning he's only the 4th player w/ 3,000 hits, 450 HR and 600 Doubles (Musial, Aaron, Yaz).

Where do you rank him all-time?
It is actually a much smaller list. He is Top3, no question.

Brett as:
3B: 1685 G, 2044 H, 198 HR, 1005 RBI
1B: 460 G, 529 H, 61 HRs, 2003 RBI, 303 RBI <- Typo fixed
DH: 504 G, 538 H, 51 HR, 257 RBI

Schmidt as:
3B: 2190 G, 2059 H, 509 HR, 1474 RBI - 174 SB, 377 Doubles
1B: 153 G, 158 H, 36 HR, 108 RBI

Chipper as:
3B: 1983 G, 2235 H, 389 HR, 1341 RBI - 128 SB - 455 Doubles
LF: 356
SS: 47

Boggs as:
3B: 2197 G, 2788 H, 106 HR, 925 RBI, 20 SB, 536 Doubles
DH: 107 G
1B: 65 G


Beltre as:
3B: 2639 G, 2887 H, 429 HR, 1543 RBI, 118 SB - 585 Doubles


That really only leaves Brooks Robinson and Mathews (spelled with 1 "t")
Robinson as:
3B: 2834 G, 2838 H, 266 HR, 1350 RBI, 28 SB, 482 Doubles

Mathews as:
3B: 2078 G, 2091 H, 461 HRs, 1290 RBI, 63 SB, 317 Doubles

Beltre is #1 in stats for games played at 3B for almost every category, except like 2 or 3. Of which, he will likely reach every category, but 1. Stolen Bases. Home Runs may be iffy. He may finish 2nd... but every other category he has done quite well.

I started to track this about 2 years ago. In Rangers' threads, I've had some running totals on where he ranks in each category. So, if you want to find it, search posts I've done in this forum, with like Mathews or Robinson

If we are breaking out by games played by position, Beltre has some games at DH that need to be broken out.
I was actually surprised to see Brett have 460 games at 1B. Remember him playing there some, but not that extensively. Been a while though (obviously).

KT 90
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And what is the actual time for the trade deadline today (CST)?
NotGibbs
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DallasAg 94 said:

aggie1906 said:

I'm not sure anyone cares about stats totals while playing a certain position and ignoring stats while not at that position.
So, Brett was such a great 3B, that he spent 38% of his time playing 1B, DH, Other?!

You are right... it probably isn't relevant to the discussion of greatest 3B, that the guy actually play the position?!

Brett was so awesome at 3B, that they played him at DH and 1B, to showcase just how great he is at 3B.


So essentially are you punishing a player for playing multiple positions with this argument? Obviously he wouldn't have top numbers when comparing him with other 1B and DHs, so he should just completely be left off the greats list?
_lefraud_
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AG
Hank Aaron started 26 games at 2B one year, greatest second baseman ever?
Farmer1906
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wRC+ (career)
Schmidt 147
Jones 141
Brett 132
Boggs 132
Beltre 116

wRC+ (top 3 seasons)
Schmidt 198, 172, 161
Brett 198, 168, 154
Jones 174, 165, 163
Boggs 171, 167, 156
Beltre 161, 142, 142

OPS (career)
Jones .930
Schmidt .908
Boggs .858
Brett .857
Beltre .820

OPS (top 3 seasons)
Jones 1.074, 1.044, 1.032
Brett 1.118, 1.022, .947
Schmidt 1.080, 1.004, .967
Boggs 1.049, .965, .939
Beltre 1.017, .921, .919

Beltre is an all timer for 3B, but he gets a bump in the counting stats by having the longest career. He's probably closer to 5th or 6th than 1st or 2nd.
DallasAg 94
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They were broken out in my post.

I don't know how all these Wars work, but I would think playing positions other than 3B would have had an impact.

A DH is not the same as 3B.
PacifistAg
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aggie1906 said:

I'm not sure anyone cares about stats totals while playing a certain position and ignoring stats while not at that position.
I agree that the general fan isn't going to delve into games played at each position. I was tempted to break it out by games played, but for sake of ease, I just used their career numbers. That said, I do think it's an effective way to evaluate players at a position historically. Paul Molitor, for example, gets lumped in w/ the 3B on baseball reference's 3B JAWS page, but I don't think anyone really considers him a 3B, even though he played nearly 800 games there.
DallasAg 94
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NotGibbs said:

DallasAg 94 said:

aggie1906 said:

I'm not sure anyone cares about stats totals while playing a certain position and ignoring stats while not at that position.
So, Brett was such a great 3B, that he spent 38% of his time playing 1B, DH, Other?!

You are right... it probably isn't relevant to the discussion of greatest 3B, that the guy actually play the position?!

Brett was so awesome at 3B, that they played him at DH and 1B, to showcase just how great he is at 3B.


So essentially are you punishing a player for playing multiple positions with this argument? Obviously he wouldn't have top numbers when comparing him with other 1B and DHs, so he should just completely be left off the greats list?


How can you argue Brett was a Top 5 3B, when 38% of the time, he wasn't even the best 3B on his team.

We have GG and AS selections for great seasons. Maybe Cap Ripken should be considered? Maybe I should look up Fernando Tatis' numbers.
Farmer1906
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It is okay to play more than one position.
DallasAg 94
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astros4545 said:

I'm just impressed how effective he still is at 38 years old


Really is amazing how good those PEDs are nowadays


And yes... I blue starred this.
Frok
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Third base is a tough position to come of with best of all time. I don't know where Beltre ranks but he's had a fine career and will end up in the HOF.
PacifistAg
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Quote:

Beltre is an all timer for 3B, but he gets a bump in the counting stats by having the longest career. He's probably closer to 5th or 6th than 1st or 2nd.
Robinson played 23 seasons
Brett played 21 seasons
Beltre has played 20 seasons
Chipper played 19 seasons
Schmidt played 18 seasons
Boggs played 18 seasons

He's not getting a bump for longevity. They all had long careers. He's already passed Brett up in many categories while playing 1 fewer season. Not to mention, 3B is not an offense-only position. People like Chipper should rightly be discounted for their mediocre, at best, defense. Especially when compared to Beltre's historically elite defense.

DallasAg 94
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aggie1906 said:

It is okay to play more than one position.


I don't disagree. But if we are measuring players by statistics, and that IS baseball, it is a worthwhile note. I liked Brett, but his time away from 3B has to be considered, nor you have to include A-Rod, et al. Like Michsel Young.
Ag_07
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RetiredAg said:

Not to mention, 3B is not an offense-only position.

Say what?
DallasAg 94
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I'm too old to double pist. Somebody bring in some relief poster
PacifistAg
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Ag_07 said:

RetiredAg said:

Not to mention, 3B is not an offense-only position.

Say what?
The point is that using solely offensive metrics is short-sighted. It's why I included dWAR in the OP. A lot will want to put Chipper ahead of Beltre, yet Chipper was a mediocre defensive 3B. If we're evaluating the all-time greatest 3B, you have to consider the defensive side as well.
Ag_07
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Ah OK. I completely misread that. I thought you said it was an offense-only position. I missed the 'not' in your post.

That's why I was thinking 'WTF?'

No one is arguing you guys that he's Top 5 but I think some are looking a bit too hard to try and push him to 1 or 2.
DallasAg 94
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aggie1906 said:


Beltre is an all timer for 3B, but he gets a bump in the counting stats by having the longest career. He's probably closer to 5th or 6th than 1st or 2nd.


That is the point. He has had one of the longest careers "as a 3B, " not just as a MLB player, relative to others mentioned.

Younger, better players come in. Beltre broke into the league very young and has remained relatively healthy. You can't argue a DH is physically demanding.
PacifistAg
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Ag_07 said:

Ah OK. I completely misread that. I thought you said it was an offense-only position. I missed the 'not' in your post.

That's why I was thinking 'WTF?'

No one is arguing you guys that he's Top 5 but I think some are looking a bit too hard to try and push him to 1 or 2.
Oh, I'd put him #3, but could definitely understand if someone wanted to put Boggs higher. I think Schmidt and Brett are the top 2, but I do think by the end of it all, numbers 2-4 are going to be pretty interchangeable. The only name I've seen higher than him in some lists that I strongly disagree w/ is Chipper.
Farmer1906
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RetiredAg said:

Quote:

Beltre is an all timer for 3B, but he gets a bump in the counting stats by having the longest career. He's probably closer to 5th or 6th than 1st or 2nd.
Robinson played 23 seasons
Brett played 21 seasons
Beltre has played 20 seasons
Chipper played 19 seasons
Schmidt played 18 seasons
Boggs played 18 seasons

He's not getting a bump for longevity. They all had long careers. He's already passed Brett up in many categories while playing 1 fewer season. Not to mention, 3B is not an offense-only position. People like Chipper should rightly be discounted for their mediocre, at best, defense. Especially when compared to Beltre's historically elite defense.


Let me correct what I meant. He gets a bump over most (the guys he's ahead of in a lot of the counting) by having a longer career than most.

Counting four PA as a season for Chipper & 41 for Brett as a season seems disingenuous or a mistake.

Here is what I am getting at.

Beltre vs Chipper
Hits: 3000 vs 2726 - edge Beltre
Doubles: 605 vs 549 - edge Beltre
At Bats: 10,484 vs 8,984 - oh... that's why

Farmer1906
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AG
RetiredAg said:

Ag_07 said:

Ah OK. I completely misread that. I thought you said it was an offense-only position. I missed the 'not' in your post.

That's why I was thinking 'WTF?'

No one is arguing you guys that he's Top 5 but I think some are looking a bit too hard to try and push him to 1 or 2.
Oh, I'd put him #3, but could definitely understand if someone wanted to put Boggs higher. I think Schmidt and Brett are the top 2, but I do think by the end of it all, numbers 2-4 are going to be pretty interchangeable. The only name I've seen higher than him in some lists that I strongly disagree w/ is Chipper.
As a Chipper hater, I think he should easily go over Beltre in 3B rankings. His combo of avg, power, and a great eye is damn impressive. Reminds me of Bagwell.

Jones
.303
.401
.529
.930

B****
.297
.408
.540
.948
DallasAg 94
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So, it is your opinion Chipper should be considered higher on the "All Time greatest 3rd Basemen list, than Beltre?
Farmer1906
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AG
DallasAg 94 said:

So, it is your opinion Chipper should be considered higher on the "All Time greatest 3rd Basemen list, than Beltre?
That's what I said.
DallasAg 94
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aggie1906 said:

DallasAg 94 said:

So, it is your opinion Chipper should be considered higher on the "All Time greatest 3rd Basemen list, than Beltre?
That's what I said.


I was responding before your post actually stating that.

Funny, for sure.
jkag89
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On the same level as Eddie Mathews just below Schmidt and Brett which I rate as 1A and 1B but above Brooksie, Boggs & Chipper.
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