What's the correct call?

2,246 Views | 24 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by Mathguy64
agracer
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Situation came up this past Saturday.

U15 game Saturday
Team A is attacking
Team B is defending

Ball in possession of Team A along the coaches sideline. The AR is on the other side of midfield behind/left of me, 2nd AR is on the opposite sideline. I'm about 10-15 yards from play. Ball is played along the sideline, I look back several times to check if the AR has put up his flag indicating the ball was out of play. I never see his flag go up.

Play continues, ball touches both Team A and Team B over the next 10-seconds or so. Team A scores a goal (deciding goal in 4-3 match).

Coach from Team B is upset b/c he claims the AR put his flag up and I did not stop play. Again, I looked back several times and never saw the flag go up. I pulled the AR aside and asked him if he put his flag up and he said he did briefly, then put it back down. I told him next time to keep it up to be sure your center sees the flag.

At this point what should I have done? Disallow the goal and bring the ball back for a throw in? Team A coach would have surely been upset by this.

I asked another referee this question and he brought up something I did not consider. I'll tell you what he said but I'd like another take first.
akm91
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Go to VAR?

j/k! Honestly, there's really no good answer to this.
"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
Jim01
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I'd say the play and goal stand. If it was out then it's an unfortunate mistake by the AR not to hold his flag up clearly for you to see it. It stinks for Team B but the fact they both had touched it in between the out of bounds and the goal means Team B had a chance to prevent the goal.
Rudyjax
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Did the ball go out?
I can't believe he didn't keep his flag up.

You're screwed no matter what.

What did you do and what did the other ref say?
Rudyjax
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You should post on one of the referee forums on facebook. Would like to see their opinions.
agracer
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Kevin the 3-legged dog said:

Did the ball go out?
I can't believe he didn't keep his flag up.

You're screwed no matter what.

What did you do and what did the other ref say?

I could not see if the ball went out or not. As I noted above, the AR said he put his flag up briefly BMC it went out, then put it back down.

After the goal, the coach for Team B was saying the ball went out and the AR put his flag up. He was upset I did not stop play. I pulled the AR aside and he said he briefly put his flag up and the ball went out of play then he put it down. I told him in the future to leave it up until the referee acknowledges the flag in some way.

The 2nd Referee I talked to after the game was over asked me if the AR was a young kid who appeared to be new and not sure of himself. I replied, YES, he was. In fact, after the game the AR in question told me he "started to put my flag up b/c I thought it was going out, but put it down because the ball did not go out" - which conflicted with what he told me earlier. The 2nd Referee's point was, I would have potentially been putting removing the goal and restarting with a throw in all on this 13yr old kid who was standing on the sidelines next to the Team A coach. Yes, the decision would have been mine, but I doubt Team A coach would have kept quiet for the remainder of the game.

I sent an email to the two referees basically train everyone in our area and here is their response

1st
Quote:

According to the LOTG there are only 2 times when the ball is out of play:
  • When it leaves the field of play
  • When the Referee blows his whistle

Strict Letter of the Law would say that the ball should be out of play in this instance. However, your AR did not keep his flag up which is the crux of the problem here. When you talked to the AR did he say that the ball did leave the field of play? Assume you talked to them after the goal was scored.

By way of reference, in an MLS final, the ball (according to replay) did wholly cross the line and no call made. Similar to your situation, the players continued to play, and the outcome was a goal (which was the winning goal). Even with the replay evidence the MLS allowed the goal to stand.

This is the solution I would suggest for your incident also. We will need to correct the mechanics of the AR (this should impress on him/her the importance of keeping the flag up or making sure they have the right decision when the flag goes up). You as the Referee cannot change your call once the play has been restarted. Play was never stopped so no call was required. It was an honest mistake that cost a team the game (or gave the other team the game). So you have my response.
2nd
Quote:

If you spoke with the AR and received the info on O/B BEFORE play restarted then you can use that info to restart with a throw in. When the ball goes O/B play stops regardless of what happens after that. Therefore goal would be disallowed.

If you received the info after play had already started then you have to accept the error.
Unfortunately I didn't think about disallowing the goal and restarting with a throw in until after play had already restarted.

Things got really fun when I blew a foul too quickly on Team A messing up a clear advantage for Team B to equalize.... which is unusual for me BMC I usually get yelled at for not blowing the whistle fast enough....
Jim01
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No matter the call THANK YOU for giving your time to help kids play the sport they love.

I can't imagine reffing so I'm always curious how people get into it. How did you start?
Mathguy64
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The ball was out of play and the AR noted it and signaled it. You take the ball out of the net and restart with a throw in. No different than if they had stood at attention flag up and kept it up while you ignored it.

ETA bad reading comprehension on my part. I didn't see where AR later changed his statement to basically signaling early in anticipation. If it did go out and they dropped the flag take it out of the net and restart on a throw. If they say "early flag and I goofed" it's a good goal.

I'm bad about missing an offside flag on plays that go down the touchline opposite the lead AR. I peek sometimes too soon expecting it from and don't see it because I'm looking too early. When I don't see it I go back to the play. Then the flag goes up. I have had to take balls out of the net because I missed that flag and didn't hear them yell my name.

Part of my pregame with refs I don't know is I tell my ARs to stand there flag up as long as it takes and yell my name to get my attention. And if I screw up tackle me on the field before I screw up a bad restart.
greg.w.h
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The outcome was correct given the circumstances at the moment. The AR being forthcoming earlier could have allowed an explanation. If the flag isn't all the way up and held then it was judged not out.
Rudyjax
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You know what kills me is when the AR signals it out of play when it's still on the line. Just because you can see green in-between the ball and the line, doesn't mean it's out.

agracer
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Jim01 said:

No matter the call THANK YOU for giving your time to help kids play the sport they love.

I can't imagine reffing so I'm always curious how people get into it. How did you start?
I actually started refereeing High School 20+ years ago. I did it for several years, then we moved and kids got to the age where they were playing sports and I was coaching so I did not have time to do it any more.

All my kids played soccer at one point and they started to referee when they were all ~12yrs old. It was decent money and the soccer complex was 5m from the house. When they got to HS I started to referee club games (US Soccer Referee) on weekends. I've been playing since I was about 10yrs old and really enjoy the game. I got tired of watching bad referee's and felt I could do at least as good as some of those guys, if not better. So I signed up for a certification course, got my level 8 license and started refereeing with my kids on weekends. I certainly don't do it for the money, I just want to give something back and hopefully doing a decent job.

After my youngest graduated HS, I started doing HS games as those are in the evenings during the week, which my wife likes b/c then she gets me on the weekends. I still do club games some weekends but have mostly switched to HS now.

The club level certainly puts more emphasis on the training and certification process than HS. To be a US Soccer Official, I had to attend a 2-day class which included inside and outside instruction and pass a written exam (which was not hard). Then every year I have to attend a 4-hour recertification course and take an exam. The local club also has a monthly training sessions where they review rules, and video's/situations and ask the attendees' to "make the call". I actually emailed them my situation (see above) and he will probably use it at the next training class (which have been halted due to covid). I'm also part of a group that does mentoring for young/new referee's to help them get better and be more confident. That's honestly the biggest problem I see with young referee's. It's like they're afraid to blow the whistle and draw attention to themselves. That and they don't always apply the rules correctly (IE awarding a penalty for a pass back to the goalie instead of and indirect free kick).

The recertification process has actually become a much bigger PITA with covid as everything went online. Now I have like 3 log ins..one for USSF, one for USSF Training and another for game officials. I also to watch a 2-hour child abuse video every year which to me is ridiculous as I have virtually zero interaction with players outside of the match. The video is geared more towards coaches and administrators who have a lot more potential one on one contact with players. I walk on the field, collect game cards, do the coin toss, call the match, then go home. I completely understand why they're doing the video/class, but they need to pair it down for referee'swe really have no contact with players off the field where the potential for grooming/abuse is much higher.

For HS, I signed up with the state, took a test online and I was a HS ref. I just contacted the local assignor of games, set up my block times in their online system and he assigns me games. There is a local group for HS referee's that I've joined which will perform evaluations if you request them and has online training classes available, etc. but not everyone is a member. It's not an 'official' state HS group, just a group of referee's trying to get better. The local assignor also has a good idea of who to give what games. There are certainly some good and bad referee's out there.

It's been mostly good, but after the last two weeks I'm starting to question if I can keep this up. Last week I did a U18 Div 1 game and the game above was U15 Div 2 level. So pretty high level boys games. I really can't keep up with the 18 yr olds anymore and the 15 yr old's aren't much slower. In the U18 game I gave out 4 yellow cards and could have given 2 more. I missed one call for sure (funny, I let it go and yelled advantage...which didn't develop so I should have blow the whistle and brought it back and probably given a yellow). After the U18 game one of the coaches said thanks and good game (but his team won so not sure if he really meant it..and he was complaining a lot during the game). And of course the Team B coach above gave a post game speech to his players for my benefit that was the worst officiating he's ever scene. I forgot to mention I gave him a yellow too after the missed advantage call b/c he would not shut up about even after I agreed with him that "yes, I blew the whistle to quickly". The field marshal, who I know and is also a HS ref., saw the last 10m of the match told me I did a good job and the coach earned his yellow card and to not sweat it (he also heard the AR change his story after the game).

Not sure why I went on that dissertation it just get frustrating sometimes. I know I'm not perfect but I try hard to do a good job and when you make a small mistake it's tough to take that criticism, esp. the idiot parents who don't know how to apply the laws of the game. I worked with a guy who did BB and he gave me an article a referee wrote that basically showed we make dozen's of split second decisions in every match..we're going to get a few wrong and sometimes they impact the game more than others.
Rudyjax
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I'm a member of several referee forums and the next time they all agree with a call will be the first.

The game is 100% subjective.
jeffk
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ARs are just the worst!!!
91AggieLawyer
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I wouldn't know a soccer rule if you hit me upside the head with a library of rule books but I find it amazing that as a long time football and basketball official that, while we use up to 7 in football (college = 8) and 3 in hoops, soccer still has ONE in the middle of a field that is roughly 20 percent larger than the field we put 7-8 on! I know they have 2 on the sideline but they have limited authority.

For the life of me, I can't understand that. I know the sport is different and I know there probably isn't a need for 7, but plays like this it seems call for at least 3 in some sort of triangle formation with similar authority spread out similar to like that on a basketball court.

Is it because soccer coaches want their players to be able to get away with stuff? Or is it just because its the way things have always been done?
Mathguy64
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NM. Wrong firum
agracer
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91AggieLawyer said:

I wouldn't know a soccer rule if you hit me upside the head with a library of rule books but I find it amazing that as a long time football and basketball official that, while we use up to 7 in football (college = 8) and 3 in hoops, soccer still has ONE in the middle of a field that is roughly 20 percent larger than the field we put 7-8 on! I know they have 2 on the sideline but they have limited authority.

For the life of me, I can't understand that. I know the sport is different and I know there probably isn't a need for 7, but plays like this it seems call for at least 3 in some sort of triangle formation with similar authority spread out similar to like that on a basketball court.

Is it because soccer coaches want their players to be able to get away with stuff? Or is it just because its the way things have always been done?
In football the 8 officials all have different responsibilities. In soccer, you'd have two guys and they might call the game completely differently from each other which would cause massive confusion, and likely a lot of anger from the players.

One guy might call a foul in one situation, while the other ref doesn't. I always try to be as consistent as possible (not always successful) so the players know pretty quick what I'll put up with and what I won't. And that varies depending on age, sex, skill level of the teams. A division 1 u15 boys team plays very different from a u13 girls div 4 team. Also, the can have ARs have just as much authority as the center, depending on what instructions the center gives them pre-game. I always tell the ARs their priority is off side and out of bounds. If they see a foul in there quadrant call it. Just be slow on fouls in the box and make sure I'm not yelling play on or no foul because if they put their flag up and I wave it off we look bad in front of the players, coaches and parents.
bbry81
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That happens a lot in high school when they do duels instead of a full crew. One ref let's Them play and the other doesn't. Very frustrating
Rudyjax
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Quote:

One guy might call a foul in one situation, while the other ref doesn't.
This happens all the time in football/basketball.

agracer
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bbry81 said:

That happens a lot in high school when they do duels instead of a full crew. One ref let's Them play and the other doesn't. Very frustrating
which is why this usually only happens at the JV level and below. At least where I work.
jeffk
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*Laughs in 2020-21 official shortage*
bbry81
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Yeah here in Austin and San Antonio we are lucky if we get a full crew for varsity. Has been a huge shortage for a long time especially San Antonio.
agracer
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bbry81 said:

Yeah here in Austin and San Antonio we are lucky if we get a full crew for varsity. Has been a huge shortage for a long time especially San Antonio.
. To be honest, after the game I mentioned in my OP I was wondering why I'm doing this when you have to deal with coaches like the one above...he gave a nice loud speech to his team after the game about the "worst officiating he's ever seen" ..and really other than the OB mix up and the quick whistle instead allowing advantage, I felt I called a pretty even, and consistent game. Hell, I'd given his team an advantage call in the 1st half that led to a goal and a 2-1 lead for his team.

Parents aren't much help either. My boys used to referee and they always came home talking about the "parents are such idiots"...
Mathguy64
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It's times like that when I really have to fight the urge to pull out a yellow and publicly dress the coach down in front of his own team. It's blatant dissent.
Aston94
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1. Thanks for reffing. I did it for many years and stepped away a couple years ago.

2. You did the right thing with the goal. AR made an apparent mistaken call, one he wasn't sure about, so you let the game go on, and all the players continued to play.
agracer
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Mathguy64 said:

It's times like that when I really have to fight the urge to pull out a yellow and publicly dress the coach down in front of his own team. It's blatant dissent.
. Except that the game was over and done. I did give a yellow after the "advantage" mix up bc he would not let it go. I told home, yes, I blew my whistle to quickly...but then he kept *****ing so I gave him a verbal warning, then he kept at it so I pulled out a yellow. One of the field marshals saw the whole thing and said to me after " he earned that".

His "worst officiating " speech in was way after the game had ended.
Mathguy64
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It's still dissent and in theory cardable. You wouldn't walk past him and tell his team they lost because he was a crappy coach.

I know some refs that would pull that card. I wouldn't. I think you have to have a thicker skin. But I know some who would pull it. YMMV.
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