Laws Interpretation - Keeper Handling

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ptothemo
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4:37p, 3/17/21
AG
I know that there are folks on here that know that know the laws and their interpretation better than me, and I'm curious to know about a situation I've seen a couple of times recently.

The situation is where the keeper goes outside the 18 to collect a ball, plays the ball with his feet into the 18, and then picks it up.

I am curious as to why that is allowed where the keeper can not pick the ball up after a back pass from an outfield player. It seems to me to be effectively the same thing as the back pass. The fact that the keeper is not whistled for the handling tells me it is not the same, but I would like to know the why behind that.
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deadbq03
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12:06p, 3/18/21
AG
From what I understand, they can only dribble into the box and handle after receiving the ball from the opponent. They can't do it if they got the ball on a back pass from a teammate. So it's at least halfway consistent.

Personally, I'd like to see it disallowed. If a keeper chooses to come out of the box, they ought to be fair game for a high press and not have this as a get out of jail free card.
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ptothemo
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In reply to deadbq03 • 3:52p, 3/18/21
AG
Thank you, the couple of times that I've seen it, I wasn't paying attention to who played the ball that made it back to the keeper. Agreed that the opposition playing it versus the keeper's team halfway makes sense.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to ptothemo • 5:35p, 3/18/21
AG
It's perfectly legal if from an opponent.

You're right that it's similar to spasm from a teammate and maybe an over site.

That being said, the 21-22 law changes will mostly be around handball and VAR.
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Holdenb11
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12:23a, 3/19/21
This falls under Law 12. Law 12 addresses handling the ball by any player (including the keeper) outside of the penalty area and indirect free kicks awarded due to the keeper's actions within the penalty area. Law 12 lists all the infractions that a keeper could commit, including touching the ball with his hands when it has been deliberately kicked to the keeper by a teammate. By omission (the laws typically address infractions, so if the conduct is not listed, it is not an infraction), the keeper is allowed to redirect the ball, as long as it was not deliberately played to him by a teammate, into the penalty area where he is allowed to handle the ball.

Other interesting things you may see. As long as the ball was not played to him by a teammate, the keeper can actually dribble the ball outside the penalty area, decide that's not wise, dribble it back into the penalty area, and pick it up. The keeper is not a teammate, so he can also pick up a ball within the penalty area that he has misplayed himself (as long as he has not touched the ball with his hands). I once saw a keeper shank a kick after receiving a long ball from the opposition, and due to the wind he actually caught his own kick. The other team went crazy when he wasn't called for a handball, but it was the correct call, or non-call.

The one that you'll often see that should be called but isn't is when the keeper bounces the ball a few times before punting it. Technically that is a violation of Law 12 (indirect free kick is awarded when the keeper touches the ball with the hands after releasing it and before it has touched another player). I've heard in referee forums that they allow this because it does nothing to slow the game down since the keeper still only has six seconds to put the ball back in play (although they are also very lenient with the six seconds).
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deadbq03
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In reply to Holdenb11 • 8:47a, 3/19/21
AG
Incredible post, thanks for chiming in.

P.S. Please post more often. You've clearly got way better knowledge of the sport than most of the yahoo's like me do.
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ptothemo
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In reply to Holdenb11 • 9:00a, 3/19/21
AG
Thank you! Answered my original question plus a lot more.
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jeffk
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9:15a, 3/19/21
AG
Two posts since 2018 is quite a lurking record.

And yeah, you'll almost never see six second violations called in youth games (unless it's super egregious and they've been warned). And you'll absolutely never see bouncing the ball called as a violation either.
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Mathguy64
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In reply to Holdenb11 • 9:22a, 3/19/21
AG
Law 12 expressly addresses a GK bouncing the ball as well as tossing it it the air to themselves. Both are considered a form of control and are stated as not handling.

In July they will add that a GK playing a goal kick to a teammate who heads it back to them for the purpose grabbing is in fact handling. This was an unintended loophole left from the last change on fast restarts in the penalty area.
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Mathguy64
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9:30a, 3/19/21
AG
Don't know where that emoji came from.
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jeffk
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 9:30a, 3/19/21
AG
Have you seen anyone successfully pull of the goalkick to head back to hands maneuver?
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Mathguy64
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In reply to jeffk • 9:34a, 3/19/21
AG
It happened in a USL game pretty early on. The Referee let it go not knowing what to do. There were two camps. 1. It was a form of trickery and 2. It was an unintended loophole and not an infraction. A couple of months later a clarification came out saying it should not be allowed and treat it as a kick not legally put in play, do a rekick and it would be codified in the next rewrite one way or the other. It's going to be considered trickery and punishable as such starting July 1.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 10:37a, 3/19/21
AG
Mathguy64 said:
Law 12 expressly addresses a GK bouncing the ball as well as tossing it it the air to themselves. Both are considered a form of control and are stated as not handling.

In July they will add that a GK playing a goal kick to a teammate who heads it back to them for the purpose grabbing is in fact handling. This was an unintended loophole left from the last change on fast restarts in the penalty area.
I just read Law 12 and can't find where it mentions bouncing or throwing the ball in the air. Can you show me?

And that second part is overkill as that is already a caution. And to make it a penalty kick is harsh when no other pass backs are a DFk is inconsistent.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to jeffk • 10:37a, 3/19/21
AG
jeffk said:
Have you seen anyone successfully pull of the goalkick to head back to hands maneuver?
No. But it's would be a caution. That's why no one does it.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 10:39a, 3/19/21
AG
It's already trickery.

Quote:
uses a deliberate trick to pass the ball (including from a free kick) to the goalkeeper with the head, chest, knee etc. to circumvent the Law, whether or not the goalkeeper touches the ball with the hands
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Mathguy64
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In reply to Rudyjax • 11:17a, 3/19/21
AG
Look guys... said:
I just read Law 12 and can't find where it mentions bouncing or throwing the ball in the air. Can you show me?

And that second part is overkill as that is already a caution. And to make it a penalty kick is harsh when no other pass backs are a DFk is inconsistent.


It's in the section on Indirect kicks

"A goalkeeper is considered to be in control of the ball with the hand(s) when:
the ball is between the hands or between the hand and any surface (e.g. ground, own body) or by touching it with any part of the hands or arms, except if the ball rebounds from the goalkeeper or the goalkeeper has made a save
holding the ball in the outstretched open hand
bouncing it on the ground or throwing it in the air"

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Mathguy64
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In reply to Rudyjax • 11:21a, 3/19/21
AG
Look guys... said:
It's already trickery.

Quote:
uses a deliberate trick to pass the ball (including from a free kick) to the goalkeeper with the head, chest, knee etc. to circumvent the Law, whether or not the goalkeeper touches the ball with the hands


The problem was it technically was not trickery. The GK was legally making the free kick and the player was legally heading it to the GK. The issue was the combination of actions was really seen as circumventing the intended change of a fast restart. So the patch was originally "don't do it we consider it to be a ball not in play and redo the kick." Now they actually are putting specific language in calling it a form of trickery.
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TXAggie2011
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 11:47a, 3/19/21
AG
Mathguy64 said:
Law 12 expressly addresses a GK bouncing the ball as well as tossing it it the air to themselves. Both are considered a form of control and are stated as not handling.
What if the goalie accidentally bounces it off his own foot and then goes and picks it up?
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Mathguy64
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In reply to TXAggie2011 • 11:54a, 3/19/21
AG
TXAggie2011 said:
Mathguy64 said:
Law 12 expressly addresses a GK bouncing the ball as well as tossing it it the air to themselves. Both are considered a form of control and are stated as not handling.
What if the goalie accidentally bounces it off his own foot and then goes and picks it up?


It's not my job to bail you out of your bad play.
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jeffk
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12:25p, 3/19/21
deadbq03
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 4:55p, 3/19/21
AG
Quote:
It's in the section on Indirect kicks

A goalkeeper is considered to be in control of the ball with the hand(s) when:
  • the ball is between the hands or between the hand and any surface (e.g. ground, own body) or by touching it with any part of the hands or arms, except if the ball rebounds from the goalkeeper or the goalkeeper has made a save
  • holding the ball in the outstretched open hand
  • bouncing it on the ground or throwing it in the air
Man the "except" in your quote really confused me... made me think everything after it was an exception to control. Fixed it by adding bullet points.
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Mathguy64
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In reply to deadbq03 • 5:02p, 3/19/21
AG
There are a bunch of bullet symbols that didn't copy in correctly. The clauses about holding the ball in your hand or bouncing in or throwing it up and catching it are separate and perfectly legal.
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deadbq03
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5:03p, 3/19/21
AG
Man you're fast... I decided the formatting was kooky and looked for myself.
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deadbq03
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5:12p, 3/19/21
AG
Quick followup question then now that I'm looking at the rules in context...

Quote:
except if the ball rebounds from the goalkeeper or the goalkeeper has made a save

Does this mean guys are allowed to challenge the goalkeeper immediately after a save? This is gloriously vague language. As a ref, at what point do you say he does have control?
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Mathguy64
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In reply to deadbq03 • 5:17p, 3/19/21
AG
deadbq03 said:
Quick followup question then now that I'm looking at the rules in context...

Quote:
except if the ball rebounds from the goalkeeper or the goalkeeper has made a save

Does this mean guys are allowed to challenge the goalkeeper immediately after a save? This is gloriously vague language. As a ref, at what point do you say he does have control?


The idea is making a save itself is not control. You can't make a save and deflect the ball to have control. You need to possess the ball in that clause. Then things like dribbling or juggling no not cause you to loose control. And challenging a GK in control will get you a polite "dont do it", ass chewing or card depending on the speed, amount of contact and force and temperature of the match.

ETA one finger on the ball can be enough to make control. One finger, ball pinned to ground, not moving.
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aggiebrad94
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9:46a, 3/21/21
AG
Quote:
As long as the ball was not played to him by a teammate,
Does this mean intentionally played? I had a linesman tell me we almost got a handball on a ball ricocheting off a defender back to the goalie. Someone else kicked it before the goalie picked it up which is why it was an almost.
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jeffk
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In reply to aggiebrad94 • 9:54a, 3/21/21
AG
Yes, intent is an important aspect here.
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Mathguy64
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In reply to aggiebrad94 • 10:05a, 3/21/21
AG
aggiebrad94 said:
Quote:
As long as the ball was not played to him by a teammate,
Does this mean intentionally played? I had a linesman tell me we almost got a handball on a ball ricocheting off a defender back to the goalie. Someone else kicked it before the goalie picked it up which is why it was an almost.
The Law says "deliberately kicked to the goal keeper by a teammate". Any touch by any player resets this. There is a big gray area if a defender plays a ball back to an area where only a goal keeper could get it. For example if a defender plays is back to the side of the penalty area with no one around and the goalkeeper moves over 10 yards to get it. That may not violate the letter but I think does violate the spirit of the Law.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 12:03a, 3/22/21
AG
Mathguy64 said:
aggiebrad94 said:
Quote:
As long as the ball was not played to him by a teammate,
Does this mean intentionally played? I had a linesman tell me we almost got a handball on a ball ricocheting off a defender back to the goalie. Someone else kicked it before the goalie picked it up which is why it was an almost.
The Law says "deliberately kicked to the goal keeper by a teammate". Any touch by any player resets this. There is a big gray area if a defender plays a ball back to an area where only a goal keeper could get it. For example if a defender plays is back to the side of the penalty area with no one around and the goalkeeper moves over 10 yards to get it. That may not violate the letter but I think does violate the spirit of the Law.


There was a debate on a referee Facebook group about this exact same thing from the USWNt match a few weeks ago.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 7:16a, 3/31/21
AG
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMeycKeTT/
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Mathguy64
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In reply to Rudyjax • 7:35a, 3/31/21
AG
That's straight up trickery and is in the Laws.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 9:57a, 3/31/21
AG
Mathguy64 said:
That's straight up trickery and is in the Laws.
What's the clarification then?
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PatAg
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In reply to Rudyjax • 10:08a, 3/31/21
AG
Look guys... said:
Mathguy64 said:
That's straight up trickery and is in the Laws.
What's the clarification then?
He handled the ball himself before heading to the keeper. I'm pretty sure that hasn't been allowed for decades. Just noticed this was related to something 10 posts ago, my bad
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Mathguy64
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In reply to Rudyjax • 10:11a, 3/31/21
AG
Look guys... said:
Mathguy64 said:
That's straight up trickery and is in the Laws.
What's the clarification then?
The clarification deals specifically with the act of taking a goal kick for the purpose of immediately kicking it or heading it to a goal keeper. The fast restart/short goal kick allowance was meant to be a fast restart not a way to put the ball in a keeper's hands. So they clarified what was a general statement about trickery to specifically outlaw taking a fast goal kick and using that to put the ball in the keeper's hands.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 10:53a, 3/31/21
AG
Mathguy64 said:
Look guys... said:
Mathguy64 said:
That's straight up trickery and is in the Laws.
What's the clarification then?
The clarification deals specifically with the act of taking a goal kick for the purpose of immediately kicking it or heading it to a goal keeper. The fast restart/short goal kick allowance was meant to be a fast restart not a way to put the ball in a keeper's hands. So they clarified what was a general statement about trickery to specifically outlaw taking a fast goal kick and using that to put the ball in the keeper's hands.
Pretty sure that clip was after a goalkick.
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