The talent gap between USWNT and USMNT...

5,601 Views | 64 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by monarch
Brian Earl Spilner
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How do you explain this vast ocean between them? From a perennial powerhouse and dynasty, to frankly, an underperformer that has every reason to be dominant on the international stage.

Is it as simple as there being less sports and leagues for women to go pro in on American soil, compared to men? Or is it more about weaker competition?

Thoughts?
Aston94
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Title IX


We gave a crap about women's sports a long time before the rest of the world.
RVAg02
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I always assumed it was that the women's team shows you what happens when some of the US's best athletes play soccer. Just too many other options for the men vs most other countries. Perhaps it's more nuanced than that.
Gordo14
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It's easy - Title IX and the rest of the world doesn't throw neatly as many resources into women's sports as we do. Europe is catching up, but college soccer is actually a huge advantage for the development of women's soccer that the rest of the world is unlikely to match. For men, playing college soccer is actually a negative because of the fact the rest of the world views teenagers as professionals in men's soccer and they dump significantly more resources into that.
Icecream_Ag
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Title IX is 60%.
Other options for men is 10%.
Only using the us soccer pay to play camps to recruit from is 30%

We have plenty of talent to compete, but so much goes unnoticed because they don't participate in the US soccer camps it's stupid
who?mikejones
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The usa has been the best cultivator for women, women sports, lgbt and so on. In a world where women are discouraged from participating in sports and where it is laughable for a woman to pursue professional athletics, the usa went the opposite way and changed their laws to promte women athletics.

Essentially, the uswnt has always been at the top.

The usmnt is playing catch up and probably always will be. We were playing baseball when everyone else was playing soccer. Then football took over. There is no soccer culture here (i rarely see pick up soccer in a park, it is usually basketball, football or ultimate frisbee.) American Kids gravitate to other sports and pay to play doesnt help the situation.

In short, for men baseball/football is in our psyche while soccer still exists outside of it. For women, the usa is/was the best place for women athletes and the rest of the world is playing catch up.

akm91
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US women were really one of the pioneers in womens soccer and most of it had to do with Title IX. It provided development for women and was a huge advantage.

Given the lack of infrastructure and professionalism around most of the world for women's soccer, it's not surprising that we're the power. Europe is starting to develop and their maturation will be much faster due to the club infrastructure in place already.
"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
aTmAg
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Aston94 said:

Title IX


We gave a crap about women's sports a long time before the rest of the world.
...And did not give a crap about men's sports that weren't football, basketball, and baseball.
AgGrad99
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It's not the talent gap between the women's team and men's team that matters.

It's the talent gap between the women's and the women in the rest of the world. Between our men, and the rest of the world. Most countries don't put the resources we do, towards their women's teams. But the #1 sports concern, internationally, is the men...for soccer, not soccer and other sports. That's not the case yet in the USA.

It's a night/day comparison really.
Brian Earl Spilner
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I didn't word it correctly, but that's what I meant. Was not comparing the two teams to each other directly.
JJxvi
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Quote:

There is no soccer culture here (i rarely see pick up soccer in a park
Where do you live, exactly? This, like almost all sports will vary hugely with location.
who?mikejones
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JJxvi said:

Quote:

There is no soccer culture here (i rarely see pick up soccer in a park
Where do you live, exactly? This, like almost all sports will vary hugely with location.


I lived in round rock/austin. I drive 100s of miles a day in the urban core. im starting to see more pickup soccer but its still not to common. Honestly, I see lacrosse more than anything else
JJxvi
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I'm in Houston, soccer is very common. Never once seen anybody playing lacrosse in a park in my entire life.
who?mikejones
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JJxvi said:

I'm in Houston, soccer is very common. Never once seen anybody playing lacrosse in a park in my entire life.


Its also the most diverse city in the usa.

Soccer seems like the easiest pick up game you could play in a park. I know of some "private" pick up games around town that are invite only but i dont see to many seemingly organic games going on
TXAggie2011
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Bottom line version: Title IX provided a path for other important factors to manifest themselves.


Its not all Title IX. We'd be better and win more in some other women's sports with large numbers of college programs if it were all Title IX. I.e. volleyball and tennis.

Soccer, culturally speaking, took a high position among women's athletics in the United States comparable to other places.

I think there are different theories that can be put forth for why that happened.

For why soccer had such an uptake in United States, a big one, I think, is that while we have tons of young boys that play soccer along with the tons of young girls, there is no other dominant women's sport to draw attention, focus, and the desire of young girls.

In particular, if you're a girl who wants to be outside and can run pretty well---in short, you enjoy that kind of sport---there simply is no football.

Why soccer didn't get such an uptake in some other places, relative to some other sports, I think there's a bunch of reasons and they're a county-to-country thing.
oh no
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in the rest of the world, every boy plays soccer because they love the game and it's free - there's a futsal court at every apartment complex in europe and south america and there's a field with goals in every neighborhood. The super-talented kids get noticed young and brought into club academies, where the club pays for everything - living, education, and training - in hopes that they develop a few of them into revenue generators in the future.

In the US, parents of female athletes pay big $ for clubs to develop their daughters so they can get scholarships, while parents of male athletes pay big $ for clubs to develop their sons just because they love playing and maybe the slim chance that they can get a contract somewhere or play in college because they love it, but the scholarships are quickly disappearing for men due to title IX. I've been told that they expect the number to drop to zero for soccer scholarships for men in the next few years. ..the US mentality towards youth sports - paying big $ to get your kid an athletic scholarship - does not sync with the rest of the world. College sports aren't a big deal. American dads are the worst at this. Take for example Baseball - they can pay over $100k in the 10 year span from the time their son is 7 yrs old until 17 - with select clubs, private hitting coaches, private pitching coaches, tournaments, travel, etc. -- all in hopes of getting little johnny either drafted to the minor leagues or else maybe a partial scholarship to a state school. Now, if little Johnny loves soccer and not baseball - you might spend nearly as much for club dues, tournaments, private trainers, etc. --- for no scholarships. The 'pay to play' scheme/ US youth sports mentality not only keeps opportunities away from lower income families, but also the burning desire for "athletic scholarships" combined with title IX makes soccer a bad option for boys. I think right now basketball is the only sport where our US mentality somewhat works for the rest of the world - where coming to the US to play college basketball still might be the best option for development and playing professionally in the US is the pinnacle in terms of earnings -- so foreign players are trying to play in college at 18 years old rather than trying to get a pro contract at a much younger age.

Most of the MLS clubs have established academies similar to European clubs - they will recruit top talent and pay for their development. The fallacy is that if they're taking the most skilled players to their academy starting at around U12 (mostly 11 year olds), those are kids who have already been paying big $ to the clubs for their development, and the lower income families are still excluded unless they were on a club scholarship at 7, 8, 9, 10 years old.
AgRyan04
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I was thinking about this the other day and what is interesting with the womens team is how much less diverse it is than the men's.

There are no duel citizenship situations.

Even looking at the breakdown of where the players are from, there are only 4 players from the south (from 23 player roster) which is generally regarded as a hotbed for athletic talent. Are girls in the south not playing soccer?

16 of the 23 are from either the NE or the West (including 8 of the 11 starters in the final).

Northeast
NY (Dunn, Long)
NJ (Lloyd, Heath)
MA (Mewis)
VA (Krieger)
CT (Naeher)

West
CA (Dahlkemper, Davidson, Morgan, Press, Rapinoe)
CO (Pugh, Horan)
AZ (Ertz, McDonnald)

Midwest
MO (Sauerbrunn)
KS (French)
OH (Lavelle)

South
GA (Brian, O'Hara, Sonnett)
FL (Harris)

It breaks down very strangely.
littlebitofhifi
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It's cyclical. I wouldn't read too much into the nation-wide makeup except to say that the west has always produced the top women's talent.

Regarding dual-nationals, we have had some. I know Sydney Leroux chose US over Canada. But with the USWNT so dominant, you actually see most dual-nationals choose their non-US affiliation. Much easier to play for Jamaica or Mexico than to break into the US side.
akm91
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AgRyan04 said:

Northeast
NY (Dunn, Long)
NJ (Lloyd, Heath)
MA (Mewis)
VA (Krieger)
CT (Naeher)

West
CA (Dahlkemper, Davidson, Morgan, Press, Rapinoe)
CO (Pugh, Horan)
AZ (Ertz, McDonnald)

Midwest
MO (Sauerbrunn)
KS (French)
OH (Lavelle)

South
GA (Brian, O'Hara, Sonnett)
FL (Harris)

It breaks down very strangely.
The college breakdown:

UNC - 5: Long, McDonald, Harris, Heath, Dunn
Stanford - 3: O'Hara, Press, Davidson
Virginia - 3: Sauerbrunn, Sonnet, Brian
UCLA - 3: Mewis, Dahlkamper, Pugh (dropped out)
Penn State - 2: Krieger, Naeher
Cal - 1: Morgan
Wisconsin - 1: Lavelle
Portland - 1: Rapinoe
Santa Clara -1: Ertz
Okie State - 1: Franch
Rutgers - 1: Lloyd
No College - 1: Horan


UNC and Stanford have long been pipelines to USWNT.
"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
oh no
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akm91 said:

AgRyan04 said:

Northeast
NY (Dunn, Long)
NJ (Lloyd, Heath)
MA (Mewis)
VA (Krieger)
CT (Naeher)

West
CA (Dahlkemper, Davidson, Morgan, Press, Rapinoe)
CO (Pugh, Horan)
AZ (Ertz, McDonnald)

Midwest
MO (Sauerbrunn)
KS (French)
OH (Lavelle)

South
GA (Brian, O'Hara, Sonnett)
FL (Harris)

It breaks down very strangely.
The college breakdown:

UNC - 5: Long, McDonald, Harris, Heath, Dunn
Stanford - 3: O'Hara, Press, Davidson
Virginia - 3: Sauerbrunn, Sonnet, Brian
UCLA - 3: Mewis, Dahlkamper, Pugh (dropped out)
Penn State - 2: Krieger, Naeher
Cal - 1: Morgan
Wisconsin - 1: Lavelle
Portland - 1: Rapinoe
Santa Clara -1: Ertz
Okie State - 1: Franch
Rutgers - 1: Lloyd
No College - 1: Horan


UNC and Stanford have long been pipelines to USWNT.
here's another college breakdown:

MEXICO men gold cup roster:
went to college for at least 1 year: 0
no college: 23

USA men gold cup roster:
went to college for at least 1 year: 14
no college: 9

USA women world cup roster:
went to college for at least 1 year: 22
no college: 1
littlebitofhifi
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Great point. USWNT actually have 2 with no college though (Pugh & Horan)
akm91
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Well the Dutch team had 1 player (van Dongen) that had at least 1 year of college experience and everyone else have been pro's.

So playing in college wins?

"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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akm91 said:

AgRyan04 said:

Northeast
NY (Dunn, Long)
NJ (Lloyd, Heath)
MA (Mewis)
VA (Krieger)
CT (Naeher)

West
CA (Dahlkemper, Davidson, Morgan, Press, Rapinoe)
CO (Pugh, Horan)
AZ (Ertz, McDonnald)

Midwest
MO (Sauerbrunn)
KS (French)
OH (Lavelle)

South
GA (Brian, O'Hara, Sonnett)
FL (Harris)

It breaks down very strangely.
The college breakdown:

UNC - 5: Long, McDonald, Harris, Heath, Dunn
Stanford - 3: O'Hara, Press, Davidson
Virginia - 3: Sauerbrunn, Sonnet, Brian
UCLA - 3: Mewis, Dahlkamper, Pugh (dropped out)
Penn State - 2: Krieger, Naeher
Cal - 1: Morgan
Wisconsin - 1: Lavelle
Portland - 1: Rapinoe
Santa Clara -1: Ertz
Okie State - 1: Franch
Rutgers - 1: Lloyd
No College - 1: Horan


UNC and Stanford have long been pipelines to USWNT.
Most of the UNC stars have come from Dallas ! Michelle Akers first big women's star was from Dallas !!!!!
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
oh no
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akm91 said:

Well the Dutch team had 1 player (van Dongen) that had at least 1 year of college experience and everyone else have been pro's.

So playing in college wins?


i don't know. for women in 'Merica, college and high school is still better for development than what other countries offer for women. For boys, to compete on an international level, playing while going to school is not going to be nearly good enough during development phases.
FIDO95
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How good of a soccer player would Johnny Manziel have been? His speed, agility, and will to win were world class. Perfect height for soccer. We will never know because he chose football.

Think about all the pure male athletes playing other sports in the US that could have molded those skills to soccer. There are just too many options other then soccer (many of which get better publicity) that attract these athletes and I don't see that in other countries. Couple that with the cost of training here vs being selected into a development academy in other countries. It is getting better but we have a long way to go. Unfortunately not making the World Cup set us back another generation as many athletes in that 10-14 range probably switched sports due to lack of community interest and excitement.
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Grits
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Mens soccer isn't as popular here as it is in other countries. They invest more, and many here in the USA dont understand the soccer culture of other countries.

Places in Brazil, Argentina, and mexico literally build shrines and deify their countries great Male players.

Here in the usa we are all about football, basketball, and baseball for men.

-OCHWFLAKASSBRTTEFE-
gig them
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I'll never forget Landon Donovan's quote after the 2009 Confederations Cup Final:

"We just played the best eleven athletes in Brazil."

Even if it's not technically true, it's probably not too far off. And it's something we'll never, ever approach.
PatAg
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I think soccer is viewed completely differently than it was 20 years ago, much less 10.
In a good way
gibberish
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quasi relevant...

ThunderCougarFalconBird
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PatAg said:

I think soccer is viewed completely differently than it was 20 years ago, much less 10.
In a good way
I think this argument is valid for the women's game too. Here's why:

Title IX basically forced colleges to find scholarship spots for women to play in the US long before anyone outside of the US cared. So previously, in the men's game, the goal as a kid was to get picked up by a club's youth academy, develop, and sign a professional contract. For a long time, the highest level of attainment for women outside of the US was nothing and inside of the US was a scholarship followed by a coaching gig. Even now, the women's professional game in the US is basically held together with duct tape and bailing wire (I've heard stories of non-USWNT professional players living with volunteer families in garage apartments, etc.; I also had several

The calculus is changing: big clubs are starting to at least throw nominal money at their women's squad. When that number reaches an amount that makes a professional contract with Manchester United Ladies more lucrative than a college scholarship, American dominance is dead.
deadbq03
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I'll disagree partly. I think the college game would become less elite in that scenario... but interest and development throughout the US would remain high. There's no question that the rest of the world is going to continue to catch up, but women's soccer in the US will always be strong as long as it's a highly popular sport for women.

I'd argue that baseball as a sport is stronger overall by having both a minor league and a collegiate path. I'm sure the number is small, but I'd imagine that there are a few guys out there would would've quit the sport after not getting drafted out of HS if there weren't a college option, but instead they were able to play at college, get re-evaluated, and get drafted later. Even a watered-down women's college soccer keeps the pool of players large and the cream will rise to the top.
ThunderCougarFalconBird
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I get the argument and it's a good one, I just disagree.

But I'm one of the people that think college sports as it exists today is an antiquated system that takes money out of the pockets of the players. I would prefer the NCAA to disband, let players get paid, and watch non-revenue and negative-revenue sports get absorbed into clubs or just sort of fade away if the "prize" of a college scholarship no longer makes continuing to compete a worthwhile endeavor.

Compare baseball to soccer in England. Just because a kid doesn't "make it" on his first try doesn't mean he's just done. There are always teams at lower levels that will take talent where they can get it. Jamie Vardy is an excellent example -- dropped from Sheffield Wednesday's youth system, spent several years playing non-league, and finally got picked up by Leicester and helped them win a stunning EPL title.
Mr. White
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*eyeroll*
Mr. White
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littlebitofhifi
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F-yeah they are! Welcome to women celebrating being the best damn female footballers in the world, snowflakes!
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