PatAg said:

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OlSarge92 said:

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Agnzona said:

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Twenty years ago or so the USMNT seemed to be on the edge of becoming relevant. We are now more irrelevant than ever. Amazingly disappointing lack of improvement in all aspects of US Soccer. The organization probably needs to be blown up and started over.

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Agree, leadership from top down, such a shame. I see more push to become like Europe as the fix, that's only going to drive more of our best athletes away. I am sure many will show to to tell me how wrong I am, yet here we are.

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you have any logic to back that take up?

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Year round soccer, no off season, development teams driving kids to quit school sports. My oldest quit soccer, burned out in 8th. He'll start at OLB as a jr next year. Soccer needs to embrace the US culture and make it part of how we compete, the opposite is occurring which will only cause kids to keep picking other "American" sports. Soccer loses athletes that want to play multiple sports, force them to pick at an early age, they pick to keep playing multiple sports instead of 1. Just some thinks off the top of my mind. I am sure many will bash my opinion, but I have felt for a while the US needs to take the opposite approach, pull in US culture not euro.

I have been watching kids drop out the last several years.

We're still suffering from the backlash of what's explained in this article and we'll be lucky to get over it by Qatar if we qualify.

This is the worst the US national team has ever looked IMO. If things don't improve, we will not qualify for Qatar

Agnzona said:

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When have we ever had so many over 20 playing in Europe? Also never, yet we suck more than in than in the early 1990s.
Edited to add...
We have developed U20 pretty good over the decades compared to where we started. The big gap has been translating that to better mens teams. It seems since the mid 90s we have had youth that every 4 or 5 years the thought "just wait until the get to the National Team". They never do or if the do there essentially journey man like Freddy Adu.

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The 2002 team had loads playing overseas. Almost 1/2 the team (11) were playing overseas in top leagues, including the current USMNT HC. Five in Premier League, one in Championship, two in Bundesliga, two in Netherlands and one in France.

2002 WC Roster


Looking at the projected GC starting lineup:

Pulisic, Adams, McKennie, Ream (does Fullham count this year? ), Miyazga, Holmes, Boyd. Three in Bundesliga, two in Championship and one in Turkish Super League.

When building a house, you start with the foundation. Then add the walls. Then ceiling. Then interor and external.

What I am saying is we are doing better building the foundation than in the past.

That being said, you're right, it doesn't matter if you suck at the walls, ceiling and roof.

I choose to believe that with this foundation, it'll build a really nice house.

Thoughts on this? Click it as it posted his first and last tweet.

I Am Mine and OlSarge92 have polar opposite views and both are really convincing.

I tend to lean towards what OlSarge92 is saying. Across the globe you just don't have the pull of all the other sports you have here. Then again, the skills don't ever get to that elite level unless that's all they do.

None of that is Earth shattering.

Apparently the best part of the widespread power outage in Dallas today was missing most of this game

OlSarge92 said:

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PatAg said:

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OlSarge92 said:

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Agnzona said:

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Twenty years ago or so the USMNT seemed to be on the edge of becoming relevant. We are now more irrelevant than ever. Amazingly disappointing lack of improvement in all aspects of US Soccer. The organization probably needs to be blown up and started over.

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Agree, leadership from top down, such a shame. I see more push to become like Europe as the fix, that's only going to drive more of our best athletes away. I am sure many will show to to tell me how wrong I am, yet here we are.

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you have any logic to back that take up?

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Year round soccer, no off season, development teams driving kids to quit school sports. My oldest quit soccer, burned out in 8th. He'll start at OLB as a jr next year. Soccer needs to embrace the US culture and make it part of how we compete, the opposite is occurring which will only cause kids to keep picking other "American" sports. Soccer loses athletes that want to play multiple sports, force them to pick at an early age, they pick to keep playing multiple sports instead of 1. Just some thinks off the top of my mind. I am sure many will bash my opinion, but I have felt for a while the US needs to take the opposite approach, pull in US culture not euro.

I have been watching kids drop out the last several years.

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Baseball, basketball, and soccer are all year round. The kids dropping out are probably not cut out to make it as professionals anyways. What does "embrace us culture" mean, you seem to think it just means playing your sport at high school.

We are dedicating more and more resources to youth development, and we will reap those benefits over the coming decade.

PatAg said:

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OlSarge92 said:

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PatAg said:

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OlSarge92 said:

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Agnzona said:

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Twenty years ago or so the USMNT seemed to be on the edge of becoming relevant. We are now more irrelevant than ever. Amazingly disappointing lack of improvement in all aspects of US Soccer. The organization probably needs to be blown up and started over.

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Agree, leadership from top down, such a shame. I see more push to become like Europe as the fix, that's only going to drive more of our best athletes away. I am sure many will show to to tell me how wrong I am, yet here we are.

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you have any logic to back that take up?

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Year round soccer, no off season, development teams driving kids to quit school sports. My oldest quit soccer, burned out in 8th. He'll start at OLB as a jr next year. Soccer needs to embrace the US culture and make it part of how we compete, the opposite is occurring which will only cause kids to keep picking other "American" sports. Soccer loses athletes that want to play multiple sports, force them to pick at an early age, they pick to keep playing multiple sports instead of 1. Just some thinks off the top of my mind. I am sure many will bash my opinion, but I have felt for a while the US needs to take the opposite approach, pull in US culture not euro.

I have been watching kids drop out the last several years.

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Baseball, basketball, and soccer are all year round. The kids dropping out are probably not cut out to make it as professionals anyways. What does "embrace us culture" mean, you seem to think it just means playing your sport at high school.

We are dedicating more and more resources to youth development, and we will reap those benefits over the coming decade.

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Agree. 99% of American sports are year round now.


He more than likely switched to football because it's cooler.

Pahdz said:

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None of that is Earth shattering.

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Agree? Disagree?

Regarding doing soccer in an American way instead of a Euro way... I'll go back to my topic of college sports and argue that it simply can't be done. US sports culture is focused heavily on securing an athletics scholarship. Men's Soccer doesn't offer many opportunities in that regard.

Furthermore- I'd argue that the MLS already is an "American" way to do soccer in its structure, but it doesn't seem to be helping the development of US players. In my humble opinion, the refusal of the MLS to be part of a promotion/relegation system is symptom of the real problem: the USSF is in bed with MLS owners. This wouldn't necessarily be a problem if the MLS produced players on par with Europe but it doesn't. And so you consistently see MLS players get selected over better players from Europe, and I believe the lack of cohesion and leadership derives from a since of jealousy that runs both ways... MLS players are jealous of their European counterparts salaries/prestige, but Euro players are jealous of the preferential treatment given to MLS by USSF.

Oh I agree, just nothing I haven't read or heard before

College scholarships aren't the "issue", I think. The difference is we tend to play multiple sports and those who do specialize tend to do it later.

And I actually think with a little creativity we can figure out how to develop soccer success in our own way, and not just clamor to copy every little thing that happens in some European countries. But this thread will go around in circles like they always do.

I like this discussion but to be honest I am not sure what I can add to it due to not really knowing how Europe truly does it so feel free to stop reading here if you're tired of this discussion.

I guess from what I've read or imagined, Europe basically sends kids to development academies/schools at a very early age and some work out, others just get a decent education? Is that accurate?

With that being said, I know growing up we played rec soccer until 4th grade and started club soccer in 5th. We practiced 3 times a week and played every weekend. I played multiple sports the same way, especially baseball. When football started, a lot of my friends and I grew tired of soccer because it was year round and football was definitely the cool sport to play. That and we knew that our favorite schools didn't offer mens soccer scholarships....that's just the way it was 15 years ago.

Just another thing to discuss but I really like the Belgium youth soccer idea. They basically play 1 on 1 until 8 or 9 and slowly move to 3 on 3, 4 on 4, and so on. They don't play 11 v 11 until 14 or later if I'm not mistaken.

OregonAggie said:

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ja86 said:

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more on this discussion in this thread...
development

Meanwhile, can someone explain to me why Gregg Berhalter got the job as the national team coach anyway besides being an MLS flunky?

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I'm certain it had nothing to do with Berhalter's brother being a longtime exec at US Soccer...

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Boggles my mind Tata was not even interviewed for the position. A millenial could've done a better job running US Soccer.

Berhalters record at Columbus was commendable considering the ownership was basically trying to Major League them to Austin. I'm not saying it isn't 100% ridiculous that he was the only candidate even remotely considered for the job, but I also wouldn't say he's an MLS flunky or unqualified.

TXAggie2011 said:

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College scholarships aren't the "issue", I think. The difference is we tend to play multiple sports and those who do specialize tend to do it later.

And I actually think with a little creativity we can figure out how to develop soccer success in our own way, and not just clamor to copy every little thing that happens in some European countries. But this thread will go around in circles like they always do.

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Part of it is in most countries soccer is the most lucrative sport to be a professional at.
With soccer, you have to either leave the country to get top $.

The majority of kids grow up wanting to be the next LeBron or the next Odell. Not the next Jozy Altidore.

tysker said:

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Apparently the best part of the widespread power outage in Dallas today was missing most of this game

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I think the US is a bit unique. Athletics is so strong in this country, and such a part of our fabric, that I think soccer can thrive alongside other sports. We dont need to cannibalize other sports for a good soccer team. Could it help? Sure...but I am not convinced it's necessary.

And while developing talent earlier is always beneficial, I like the fact that we have the college ranks as well. Some players develop later. It's similar to baseball, in that man 17 year olds get drafted...but there are many others who benefit from a few years of additional development. We dont need to choose one or the other. We can benefit from both....whereas not all countries can.

Thing is...there is no direction. No organization. Klinnsman, for all his faults, he recognized this.

I read an interesting article, that did a case study on Iceland. How did a country their size become relevant internationally?

They were organized. There was a 100% clear direction from the top down. It didnt matter what town the kids grew up in, or who was coaching...they made sure their identity was taught at every level, in every town.

It would obviously have to be done on a much bigger scale in the US, but there is no reason why it cant' be done here.

But right now, what is our identity? Can anyone succinctly describe the way the US plays soccer?

That question needs to have a clear answer, and that answer needs to be taught from youth academies on...but it never has.

I Am Mine said:

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We have very few non 1st generation black kids playing the sport. Pay to play and the stigma that it's a Mexican or rich white kid sport.

They're wrong tho. Lacrosse is a rich white kids sport.

Oh well. I am optimistic about our future.

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Is AAU Basketball not Pay to Play?

agracer said:

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I Am Mine said:

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We have very few non 1st generation black kids playing the sport. Pay to play and the stigma that it's a Mexican or rich white kid sport.

They're wrong tho. Lacrosse is a rich white kids sport.

Oh well. I am optimistic about our future.

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Is AAU Basketball not Pay to Play?

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Yes. But the kids at elite level don't pay to play. The other kids are paying for it.

"Baseball, basketball, and soccer are all year round. The kids dropping out are probably not cut out to make it as professionals anyways. What does "embrace us culture" mean, you seem to think it just means playing your sport at high school."

Finally getting around to responding, several others posted as well, commenting below on several.

Virtually every sport has an off season with exception of soccer. Yes, you can play year round in those sports but in the fall generally are considered off season to football. Youth club teams requires year long commitments, not season to season like other sports. This creates challenges to kids / parents at a young age.

To deaddb03 point if they want to focus on fixing something, they should focus on fixing the college system for scholarships. That's what drives participation in the US as they get older. I guess Title IX has killed that forever. Club teams tell kids to quit playing or their HS teams, yea the coach sucks sometimes, but you cause a kid to decided between being part of US HS culture or something else.

Part of why my kid quite soccer is that it is "cooler" which is part of soccer's cultural issue that still has not changed. Keep down the path of embracing Euro, watch it become even less "cooler".

Keep in mind, I played soccer year round, I want to see it succeed. I would have thought that US soccer would be so much further along. Very disappointing in what we see last year into this year, pretty mad about it.

My youngest (7th) just quit as well, high level club team (State Level), burned out. He's going to go play "rich white sport" lacrosse with all his buddies. The year long commitment, constant conflicts with playing other sports or having to play two at the same time, he had enough.

My kids are not special that they would have played at the US level. But, I have seen VERY good to special athletes drop out through the years because of the year long commitment. They were not ready to stop other sports and it pretty much forced their hand. I know another kid, my oldest sage that made ODP, his dad was part of US system back in the day. Yet, his kid quite soccer for basketball. I know every kid is different, but I keep seeing it.

In summary, the true soccer pool in the US is very small overall culturally isolated to only the east coast, spotty elsewhere. US Soccer is missing out on kids, don't see it changing ever at this point.

note - the move to go to calendar year was another very poor euro decision IMO. All it did was break kids up between grades, part this contributed my youngest quitting. He plays with only a couple kids his age as well as in school.

The School sports dynamic doesn't exist in England, don't know about other countries. This straight from my kids club coach (British).

I don't see anything changing to address above, maybe cant be changed. All i hear is we have to do it more like Europe.

To point above. What is the US identity, outside of doing it like Europe. There is no identity. Seems clear on the way the team plays. They don't play with any identity at all. Frustrating team group (back to last year) to watch and cheer for. No spirit or emotion, no leadership.

I Am Mine said:

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agracer said:

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I Am Mine said:

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We have very few non 1st generation black kids playing the sport. Pay to play and the stigma that it's a Mexican or rich white kid sport.

They're wrong tho. Lacrosse is a rich white kids sport.

Oh well. I am optimistic about our future.

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Is AAU Basketball not Pay to Play?

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Yes. But the kids at elite level don't pay to play. The other kids are paying for it.

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that's the same with the Academy teams for a lot of soccer clubs as well.

agracer said:

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I Am Mine said:

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agracer said:

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I Am Mine said:

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We have very few non 1st generation black kids playing the sport. Pay to play and the stigma that it's a Mexican or rich white kid sport.

They're wrong tho. Lacrosse is a rich white kids sport.

Oh well. I am optimistic about our future.

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Is AAU Basketball not Pay to Play?

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Yes. But the kids at elite level don't pay to play. The other kids are paying for it.

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that's the same with the Academy teams for a lot of soccer clubs as well.

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True.

I know nothing.

There really isnt an off-season with most sports anymore.

Football is the closest...but even in High School, kids finish the season and go into off-season football, then spring, then summer workouts.

Basketball is year round, as is baseball.

Quote:

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Yes. But the kids at elite level don't pay to play. The other kids are paying for it.

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Same with soccer. It was that way when I played, and it's that way now.

However, some of those kids pay at first....and then get scholarships to keep playing. It probably is a 'stigma' type factor, when a kid and their family are deciding to play when they're young or not.

Quote:

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Virtually every sport has an off season with exception of soccer. Yes, you can play year round in those sports but in the fall generally are considered off season to football. Youth club teams requires year long commitments, not season to season like other sports. This creates challenges to kids / parents at a young age.

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That's just not true.

Soccer has 2 main season. Fall and Spring. And then winter and summer tournaments.

Exactly like baseball and basketball.

XC is year round with 1 season.

Lax is year round with 2 seasons.

Swimming is year round.

Golf is year round.

Football youth level has spring and fall leagues. And 7 v 7.

Hell, gymnastics trains year round for just a few meets per year.

They all train year round.

What's the difference?

Quote:

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note - the move to go to calendar year was another very poor euro decision IMO. All it did was break kids up between grades, part this contributed my youngest quitting. He plays with only a couple kids his age as well as in school.

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I agree they shouldn't have changed it for the kids currently playing soccer but started it at the youth level. It was tough for the older kids. My daughter won't have a club team her senior year.

That being said, most of the older teams just played up. If you were a spring 05, you'd play 04 with your teammates.

Huge difference. Basketball and baseball;; do have an off season. They work around knowing kids are playing other sports in the fall.. Its obviously all in during the winter to spring, but during the fall, they accommodate and adjust and dial back the commitment level knowing kids are playing another sport. Soccer doesn't do that, its all In year long commitment August to late Spring, with a short winter break in between Soccer doesn't accommodate anything.

OlSarge92 said:

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Huge difference. Basketball and baseball;; do have an off season. They work around knowing kids are playing other sports in the fall.. Its obviously all in during the winter to spring, but during the fall, they accommodate and adjust and dial back the commitment level knowing kids are playing another sport. Soccer doesn't do that, its all In year long commitment August to late Spring, with a short winter break in between Soccer doesn't accommodate anything.

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No sir. And really, unless a kid is playing DA, they should play other sports. My daughters NPL coach encourages other sports.

OlSarge92 said:

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To deaddb03 point if they want to focus on fixing something, they should focus on fixing the college system for scholarships. That's what drives participation in the US as they get older. I guess Title IX has killed that forever. Club teams tell kids to quit playing or their HS teams, yea the coach sucks sometimes, but you cause a kid to decided between being part of US HS culture or something else.

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Several kids on my sons' HS soccer team played "Academy" level soccer...4 x week practice, tournaments 3-states away, league play, etc. etc....they all quit b/c they wanted to be part of the HS Culture and play with their friends. Probably a little burn out as well.

OlSarge92 said:

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Huge difference. Basketball and baseball;; do have an off season. They work around knowing kids are playing other sports in the fall.. Its obviously all in during the winter to spring, but during the fall, they accommodate and adjust and dial back the commitment level knowing kids are playing another sport. Soccer doesn't do that, its all In year long commitment August to late Spring, with a short winter break in between Soccer doesn't accommodate anything.

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maybe 20 years ago. Kids competitive in baseball are playing baseball year round select ball. Basketball has year round AAU. There is no more football in the fall, basketball in winter, baseball and track in the spring, etc.. that model is an anarchism.